sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7181|Argentina
I was watching the news about the conflict in Lebanon on BBC and somebody came up with this concept of Orientalism.  Orientalism is a book written by Edward Said.

In Orientalism, Edward Saïd says that all discourse, especially cultural discourse, is inherently ideological, therefore, regardless of the subject, historical discourse occurs in a given ideological structure. Orientalism, especially the academic study of, and discourse, political and literary, about the Arabs, Islam, and the Middle East that primarily originated in England, France, and then the United States actually creates (rather than examines or describes) a divide between the East and the West. The book's examples, situate the West as culturally superior the East. This "Western superiority" became politically useful, when France and Britain conquered and colonised "Eastern" countries such as Egypt, India, Algeria and others.  The discourse surrounding these countries is coded, Said says, by a superiority that is not necessarily reflected in the realities of the concerned countries. When people in the West attempt to study the East they typically do so within this already coded discourse. Therefore, Said says, the study of someplace called the "Orient" and of some people known as "Arabs" fails to take into account the reality of the area as being the same place as the West (i.e., part of the Earth). Other countries and other people are not seen as the same within Oriental discourse, however, and therefore a study of these "others" must inherently be one of studying an inferior culture when Oriental discourse is used to describe them.

Could it be that the Western civilization was filled with some kind of propaganda or vilification of the Middle East for centuries?
Was this needed to justify European Colonialism and to fight against the Ottoman Empire?
Is this needed today to justify the invasion of Middle East countries for oil?
If this is true, don't the religious differences within the Middle East help some Western countries agendas?
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6966|Texas - Bigger than France
I think its a stretch.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina
Said is full of shit.  He always has been.

Why is he full of shit?  Because he fails to note that the Islamic World has even more of a raging sense of self-righteousness than the West does.

Besides, if a culture that treats its women like shit is somehow equal to one that doesn't, I'm not sure what equality really is worth.

To me, the measure of a society's worth is how close it is to the ideals of human rights.  Since human rights are considerably better here than in basically all of the Islamic World, I'd say we're superior -- by a longshot.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7181|Argentina

Turquoise wrote:

Said is full of shit.  He always has been.

Why is he full of shit?  Because he fails to note that the Islamic World has even more of a raging sense of self-righteousness than the West does.

Besides, if a culture that treats its women like shit is somehow equal to one that doesn't, I'm not sure what equality really is worth.

To me, the measure of a society's worth is how close it is to the ideals of human rights.  Since human rights are considerably better here than in basically all of the Islamic World, I'd say we're superior -- by a longshot.
Agreed, most ME countries need to stop violating Human rights.

Nevertheless, why don't you try answering my questions?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina
Sorry, I'm familiar with some of Said's work, and its lack of perspective really bothers me.

If you're asking whether or not the West needed to demonize Muslims, then yes, I'd agree, but they didn't do it anymore than the Muslims did it to them.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7024|132 and Bush

A common enemy is an extremely powerful force. Everyone does it everywhere. I do find it comical when people suggest that a "great satan" namely the United States is responsible for the ill's of a civilization that has been around 3800 years longer.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6966|Texas - Bigger than France
Since you insisted, my two cents:

sergeriver wrote:

Could it be that the Western civilization was filled with some kind of propaganda or vilification of the Middle East for centuries? maybe, as in "could".  But probably not
Was this needed to justify European Colonialism and to fight against the Ottoman Empire?no
Is this needed today to justify the invasion of Middle East countries for oil?no, there's other reasons
If this is true, don't the religious differences within the Middle East help some Western countries agendas?if you believe racism is a primary reason for war, yes
PureFodder
Member
+225|6709

Turquoise wrote:

Said is full of shit.  He always has been.

Why is he full of shit?  Because he fails to note that the Islamic World has even more of a raging sense of self-righteousness than the West does.

Besides, if a culture that treats its women like shit is somehow equal to one that doesn't, I'm not sure what equality really is worth.

To me, the measure of a society's worth is how close it is to the ideals of human rights.  Since human rights are considerably better here than in basically all of the Islamic World, I'd say we're superior -- by a longshot.
So you're saying that all of the countries with a better human rights record than the US are more worthy and superior?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6530|eXtreme to the maX
To me, the measure of a society's worth is how close it is to the ideals of human rights.  Since human rights are considerably better here than in basically all of the Islamic World, I'd say we're superior -- by a longshot.
Depends what you mean by human rights.
The right to work most of your waking hours to buy crap you don't need?
The right to objectify women as objects and treat them as such?
The right to impose your version of 'freedom' on the rest of the world whether they want it or not?
The right to value material wealth and pursuit of money higher than respect for your fellow man and the planet you live on?
The right to take military action against any country which threatens the profits of your corporations?
Obviously the east isn't perfect, neither is the west.

On the OP, the West seriously misunderstands and 'misunderestimates' the East.
The industrial investment going on in China has to be seen to be believed - for example - we will never catch up again.
Fuck Israel
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7181|Argentina

Kmarion wrote:

A common enemy is an extremely powerful force. Everyone does it everywhere. I do find it comical when people suggest that a "great satan" namely the United States is responsible for the ill's of a civilization that has been around 3800 years longer.
Orientalism refers to a concept that existed way before the US was a country.  The "Great Satan" thing is something relatively new.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7181|Argentina

Pug wrote:

Since you insisted, my two cents:

sergeriver wrote:

Is this needed today to justify the invasion of Middle East countries for oil?no, there's other reasons
What reasons?
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6966|Texas - Bigger than France

sergeriver wrote:

Pug wrote:

Since you insisted, my two cents:

sergeriver wrote:

Is this needed today to justify the invasion of Middle East countries for oil?no, there's other reasons
What reasons?
You understand I'm not saying it SHOULD happen, but there are reasons beyond ethnocentrism to take military action if needed.  Note also I'm not saying the reasons are strong enough to do it.

You want specifics so: taking out the Hamas/Hez etc (if they can be found), unrestrained action in Iraq, and I'd like to see enforcement of isolationism between the ME countries (enforced by countries not seen as satan of course).  And remember, I also said the cost/benefit of the action makes it implausible.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6829|North Carolina

PureFodder wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Said is full of shit.  He always has been.

Why is he full of shit?  Because he fails to note that the Islamic World has even more of a raging sense of self-righteousness than the West does.

Besides, if a culture that treats its women like shit is somehow equal to one that doesn't, I'm not sure what equality really is worth.

To me, the measure of a society's worth is how close it is to the ideals of human rights.  Since human rights are considerably better here than in basically all of the Islamic World, I'd say we're superior -- by a longshot.
So you're saying that all of the countries with a better human rights record than the US are more worthy and superior?
Pretty much...  I wasn't implying we were the best.  I'm just saying we're far better than almost all of the Islamic World (if not all) when it comes to human rights.
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6747|New Haven, CT
Vilifying or degrading one's opposition is often essential to successfully prosecuting a war or colonization and the necessary actions associated with these.

(Japan during WWII, for example.)
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7024|132 and Bush

sergeriver wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

A common enemy is an extremely powerful force. Everyone does it everywhere. I do find it comical when people suggest that a "great satan" namely the United States is responsible for the ill's of a civilization that has been around 3800 years longer.
Orientalism refers to a concept that existed way before the US was a country.  The "Great Satan" thing is something relatively new.
It's a concept that has existed since the beginning of civilization. Call it whatever.
Xbone Stormsurgezz

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