BF2S Forums What is really going to destroy us all.

I'm not sure what the best solution is but to hold a family together against its will is the worst of them ...

I think the lack of morality in society mirrors this problem very well, the general lack of respect for authorities like teachers, police, government etc etc is a growing problem with most kids growing up and they often inherrit this from their parents that again loose faith in their leaders for several reasons ... corrupt politicians, child molesting priests just to name a couple ... the strain on a hard working family are many ...

Society has a tendency to cave in on itself - history shows this ...

Rome, for example.

Last edited by nukchebi0 (2008-05-13 00:53:19)

Kmarion wrote:

Varegg wrote:

I'm not sure what the best solution is but to hold a family together against its will is the worst of them ...

I think the lack of morality in society mirrors this problem very well, the general lack of respect for authorities like teachers, police, government etc etc is a growing problem with most kids growing up and they often inherit this from their parents that again loose faith in their leaders for several reasons ... corrupt politicians, child molesting priests just to name a couple ... the strain on a hard working family are many ...

Society has a tendency to cave in on itself - history shows this ...

You believe this to be the case most of the time?

Read the headlines Kerry ... it takes courage to uphold a strong morality when so many don't ... egoism is the fastest growing "religion" in the western part of the world ... egoism destroys normally good families, egoism causes corruption, corruption leads to lower morality in society so yes i believe this is a valid scenario ...

Kmarion wrote:

So yes society usually collapses in (historically)? If this were the case how is it that we ever managed to get out of the cave? You have a gaping hole in your logic. Darwin would agree with me.

Leaning on Darwin is a kinda cheap argument seeing as survival of the fittest ensured a few to always seek progress when the masses failed so even that doesn't prove a gap in my logic ...

A note on ATG's OP:

ATG wrote:

Young boys raised without a father are more likely to become criminals, drug addicts, alcoholics, homosexuals and child molesters.

Gays and childmolesters ? ... would like to see the sources for those claims

Varegg wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

So yes society usually collapses in (historically)? If this were the case how is it that we ever managed to get out of the cave? You have a gaping hole in your logic. Darwin would agree with me.

Leaning on Darwin is a kinda cheap argument seeing as survival of the fittest ensured a few to always seek progress when the masses failed so even that doesn't prove a gap in my logic ...


Gays and childmolesters ? ... would like to see the sources for those claims

Cheap because it doesn't fit your mold of self destruction? Numbers matter .. especially in talking about society and criminal behavior. Society has learned historically (perhaps evolved?) to progress despite setbacks.

The behavior of humans evolved relatively rapidly.. and continues to evolve dramatically by comparison to other species. (for better and worse)

Tis why I asked, "You believe this to be the case most of the time?" & "So yes society usually collapses in (historically)?", in reference to societal collapse.

Some children who grow up in one-parent families do lead normal/happy lives, so therefore it is possible for a one-parent family to work.  What I believe is wrong, is that society has yet to develop single parenting techniques which are as effective as those used within a nuclear family.

Hrmmmm.

I am generally inclined to agree, especially when I see so much of the irresponsibility and lack of morals in a relatively rich, suburban, successful neighborhood. I shudder to think what this is like elsewhere.

However, I don't think the problem lies solely in the loss of traditional values. I don't think it can be viewed as a positive in any light, but I think that the loss of other aspects of society is at the very least at the heart of the solution. We can say loss of the nuclear family is destroying America, but that isn't going to make people put an extra effort towards sticking together and teaching their children how not to be pricks. They are going to follow general societal trends, and there isn't much anyone can do to change that consciously.

What we can influence is what we fill that void with. Right now that space that was being filled by appropriate parental guidance and especially in the south strong Christian values is being replaced by gangs of equally abandoned children and a counter culture that promotes drugs, pimping, and "shaking that laffy taffy". If we could give these generations a serious sense of purpose, we could turn the creative tendencies of the rebellious generation into something more useful. A nation of mavericks could be useful, if directed to useful areas where values are unimportant.

I think the primary realistic outlets are entrepreneurship and patriotism. Both are already taking their fair share of these people, but not in the serious numbers you are talking about. In business they have the freedom to be an ass until they realize they need someone, then they learn manners. In the military you have your ass kicked until you learn a sense of at the very least decency to superiors and a sense of duty to country.

Business could be expanded upon if schools emphasize the possibilities of success in owning your own business, especially if the economy continues to degrade. It we can create a generation of people willing to take the risk, there are plenty of markets opening up like greater business opportunities in Japan and Spain, and fields like biochemistry and biotechnology absolutely exploding. To some degree this field could be influenced by patriotism as well in science at the very least, as the U.S. falls further and further behind in bleeding edge science to countries like Spain in biotechnology and Japan in physics.

Another Cold War would do a lot of good kicking some people into gear as well. If you can make children like they have a home working for the good of their country as an alternative to undesirable home conditions, that would be just as effective as fixing the home situation itself. Defense jobs cover that need well. A war of propaganda with a nice stiff threat of incoming ICBMs with say, oh I dunno, Iran would provide both a productive source of income and a home for these people, at least in ideals.

Will this breakdown of traditional values destroy America as we know it today? Definitely, far before anything else. Will it be the death of the success of this country? Doubtful. I realize many of the ways of coping with the problem are stopgaps and deal with the results rather than addressing the root of the problem, but you're out of your mind if you think we can start instilling morals on the populace tomorrow.

edit: Oh yeah, religion. I whole-heartedly agree that the popularity of not believing in God is not a good thing. Religion may be stupid, but it is an excellent conduit of a solid social structure.

Because it has been so popularly rejected though, I don't think the next revival will be for quite some time. We can't turn to it for answers anytime soon.

Kmarion wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Rome, for example.

You think the Rome collapsed because of family values? If society usually collapses in then logically today's society would be worse than all preceding generations.

No. It was in reference to to Varegg's statement that society usually caves in on itself. A lack of family values (as in care for achievement and politics, and respect for others) didn't cause Rome's downfall (although one could argue it helped greatly).

HurricaИe wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

edit: Oh yeah, religion. I whole-heartedly agree that the popularity of not believing in God is not a good thing. Religion may be stupid, but it is an excellent conduit of a solid social structure.

Because it has been so popularly rejected though, I don't think the next revival will be for quite some time. We can't turn to it for answers anytime soon.

I don't believe in God or subscribe to a set of religious beliefs. I'm still a pretty good person though. Who's to say religion is needed in order to have a strong moral fabric? "Thou shalt not kill" sounds pretty sensible, regardless of whether some supreme being wrote it or if people decided that mindless killing was bad.

Anyway. My parents separated last year (divorce was filed this year). It sucked at first, but dealing with the whole thing has made me a stronger and more mature person than I ever was before. I've come to value the idea of family a lot more; I'm thankful that my parents don't hate each other with every fiber of their souls, and I'm thankful that they're both still there for me.

I've got a few friends whose parents divorced when they were very young or who only have one parent, and they've turned out fine as well. One is going to go to a very good college for music, and another is one of the most peaceable / calm person I've met. Exceptions to the 'rule'? Maybe. But you can't deny that a fair amount of kids with single parents grow up fine.

Also, ATG, what's wrong with someone being homosexual? Don't tell me you're one of those "i'd rather let a child die in Africa than be adopted by a gay family" folks...

No, I'm just saying it isn't normal.
They have to deal with all sorts of issues " normal " people don't.
Not that they can't find it, but they no doubt struggle harder than everybody else.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Hrmmmm.

I am generally inclined to agree, especially when I see so much of the irresponsibility and lack of morals in a relatively rich, suburban, successful neighborhood. I shudder to think what this is like elsewhere.

However, I don't think the problem lies solely in the loss of traditional values. I don't think it can be viewed as a positive in any light, but I think that the loss of other aspects of society is at the very least at the heart of the solution. We can say loss of the nuclear family is destroying America, but that isn't going to make people put an extra effort towards sticking together and teaching their children how not to be pricks. They are going to follow general societal trends, and there isn't much anyone can do to change that consciously.

What we can influence is what we fill that void with. Right now that space that was being filled by appropriate parental guidance and especially in the south strong Christian values is being replaced by gangs of equally abandoned children and a counter culture that promotes drugs, pimping, and "shaking that laffy taffy". If we could give these generations a serious sense of purpose, we could turn the creative tendencies of the rebellious generation into something more useful. A nation of mavericks could be useful, if directed to useful areas where values are unimportant.

I think the primary realistic outlets are entrepreneurship and patriotism. Both are already taking their fair share of these people, but not in the serious numbers you are talking about. In business they have the freedom to be an ass until they realize they need someone, then they learn manners. In the military you have your ass kicked until you learn a sense of at the very least decency to superiors and a sense of duty to country.

Business could be expanded upon if schools emphasize the possibilities of success in owning your own business, especially if the economy continues to degrade. It we can create a generation of people willing to take the risk, there are plenty of markets opening up like greater business opportunities in Japan and Spain, and fields like biochemistry and biotechnology absolutely exploding. To some degree this field could be influenced by patriotism as well in science at the very least, as the U.S. falls further and further behind in bleeding edge science to countries like Spain in biotechnology and Japan in physics.

Another Cold War would do a lot of good kicking some people into gear as well. If you can make children like they have a home working for the good of their country as an alternative to undesirable home conditions, that would be just as effective as fixing the home situation itself. Defense jobs cover that need well. A war of propaganda with a nice stiff threat of incoming ICBMs with say, oh I dunno, Iran would provide both a productive source of income and a home for these people, at least in ideals.

Will this breakdown of traditional values destroy America as we know it today? Definitely, far before anything else. Will it be the death of the success of this country? Doubtful. I realize many of the ways of coping with the problem are stopgaps and deal with the results rather than addressing the root of the problem, but you're out of your mind if you think we can start instilling morals on the populace tomorrow.

edit: Oh yeah, religion. I whole-heartedly agree that the popularity of not believing in God is not a good thing. Religion may be stupid, but it is an excellent conduit of a solid social structure.

Because it has been so popularly rejected though, I don't think the next revival will be for quite some time. We can't turn to it for answers anytime soon.

Before you go advocating reform, think of the poor children in US history a century from now who will have to write about it.

Other than that, good post.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Other than that, good post.

Progressive Era v2: This time, it's personal

Damn you APUSH, damn you to hell

Off-topic, but I was so glad we didn't have an essay on it this year.