I think the current plan is that it will be quite peaceful there once everyone's dead.
Me thinks it's the religion that's the problem here. Get rid of one, preferably Islam and I'm quite sure it will calm down A LOT.
Hmm I was gonna write a big rant but seeing that I did it last time about Islam and such people kinda went wtf, so I'll skip this time. But I'll sure as hell think it will be a lot more quiet if Islam gets deleted completely from earth.
Now think about it.
No angry Muslims who wanna cut the head/arm of a dannish writer for making picture of Mo hammed.
No honor killing as it only seems to come from families with Islamic background.
No treating women like possessions.
No punnishing women when they are being raped.
No Jihads who scream "FOR ALLAH" before they blow themself up.
Possible a lot of more things to.
Those people could stick to Jewish or Christian religion. Both of them are pretty peacefull except for Christian in a certain state where they JAIL people for teaching about evolution. JESUS CHRIST!
Hmm I was gonna write a big rant but seeing that I did it last time about Islam and such people kinda went wtf, so I'll skip this time. But I'll sure as hell think it will be a lot more quiet if Islam gets deleted completely from earth.
Now think about it.
No angry Muslims who wanna cut the head/arm of a dannish writer for making picture of Mo hammed.
No honor killing as it only seems to come from families with Islamic background.
No treating women like possessions.
No punnishing women when they are being raped.
No Jihads who scream "FOR ALLAH" before they blow themself up.
Possible a lot of more things to.
Those people could stick to Jewish or Christian religion. Both of them are pretty peacefull except for Christian in a certain state where they JAIL people for teaching about evolution. JESUS CHRIST!
I wish I could agree with you, but I think it's more than just that. See, Islam definitely has a lot of problems, but... a lot of the barbaric customs they have in the Middle East (honor killings, etc.) are actually pre-Islamic. So, basically, these people were fucked in the head long before Muhammad showed up. Of course, he doesn't seem to have changed things much.Zefar wrote:
Me thinks it's the religion that's the problem here. Get rid of one, preferably Islam and I'm quite sure it will calm down A LOT.
The problem goes beyond religion -- it's these cultures that are fucked up. Islam is a decent religion when it's practiced by reformist and moderate Muslims, because these kinds of Muslims understand and respect most Western values (like free speech). It's the orthodox and extremist ones that are the problem.
Wait! So you mean people actually get released from gitmo? Holy shit! I thought the NSA/CIA/NCIS/BSAwas infallible. They let them go? You are right we can't just shoot them!? What do we do with them? We should have some sort of place to send people that are deemed a serious risk to my country&(men) until proven otherwise. Great Idea. Thanks.JahManRed wrote:
The UK detainees who were recently release without charge after years in Gito should have been shot? You don't believe in trials. Just shot anyone you suspect as being a terrorist? Labeling and killing Innocent civilians only creates more terrorists and multiplies the problem.DBBrinson1 wrote:
During WWII we had camps here in the US where Japanese-Americans (yes grade "A" US citizens) were rounded up. I'd say we've made progress since then wouldn't you? To address Guantanamo Bay's finest... I guess the military should have shot the fuckers and not taken any prisoners. You say its inhumane to keep them there like that, but look what their comrads did to US POW's and then answer the question again
You really wrote "labeling and killing innocent.... creates more terrorists and multiplies the problem". You are absolutely right. However your statements made defend a people willing to blow themselves to bits in crowed areas where elders and children dine. I know how you and Cam see the US and Israel. However it is ya'll that defend a people whom discriminate on sub-barbaric levels. On top of it all you're critical of the US when we do catch these fuckers first we show them mercy. Are we perfect? No. Is it the best solution? Better than killing them. I know Ironchef will argue that Gitmo creates bombers, but I actually trust my President and Government on this one.
~tip hat to you~ But.JahManRed wrote:
Installing dictators? You should have a look at the past 50 years of the history of south America. You want a list of US installed and/or supported dictators? Here you go:DBBrinson1 wrote:
So how many of those dictators you listed above is the US responsible for putting installing? Shit, any time your country feels like making a positive contribution to humanity and the advancement of the human race instead of sitting on your laurels bitching at ones who do... You all ready started a list, I promise I won't object to any of them... All kidding aside...
Augusto Pinochet Chili
The Shah of Iran
Col. Hugo Banzer Bolivia
Gen. Branco Brazil
Noriega, your bound to have heard of him?
Pinonchet - 1. The US was in a cold war with the Soviet Union. I bet the election was rigged and Salvador Allende got in.
2. I'd wager money that Pinochet promised to give it back to the people and got power hungry.
3. I'd wager even more money that if the CIA had know Pino's true intentions they'd have killed him.
Col. Hugo Banzer - 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempora … an_history ..
2. I like the part in "Early 20th century" under "military rule"
Gen. Branco- 1. I bet he was included in part of the deal above
2. See Pinochet #1
If Communism had won out do You think that there would be a "Brazil" or "Bolivia" today?
Noriega- What did we do to him? Didn't we take him out?
Ok. But I think that is a fancy of saying, "I'm technically UK but really wish Ireland was separate cause (insert your reason here), but for the sake of this argument claim UK (since they are doing something) and hopefully he'll shut up about the evil dictator humanitarian shit." And I will.JahManRed wrote:
My country is Northern Ireland, which is in the UK. Whats your point?
I too hate to see the US in the ME too. However I didn't see Bush mobilizing any troops until after 9/11. I don't buy your take in the least about Iraq and Afghanistan, why? I know people that have been there. So how much "heron" was Afghanistan supplying before US intervention? They were freely able to launch attacks on the US. What are they doing now? Better yet.?.. Do you think Opium and heroin should be legalized?JahManRed wrote:
Personally I hate to see the UK military marauding around the middle east. Iraqi and Afghanistan are not going well. Afghanistan supplying half the world with heron. The Taliban are operating all over the country, with some parts being no go area. Iraqi is a haven for international terrorists and the whole situation is breading a new generation of Jihadists. Personally I wish the UK army would stay the fuck at home and funnel the billions wasted in the ME on sorting out the NHS, here at home. The people of the ME would be better off for it as well as UK citizens.
However, since the US is there, you think the US just leaving would be the best thing for the region? There would be a genocide. But that would be bad only if your are on the side of humanity...
I was beginning to wonder if we'd find a level foot of ground in any this....JahManRed wrote:
I am no fan of centralised government either. Personally I am frustrated with the nanny state in the UK. Personally I pay £50 on every £30 000 I take in. I am a business owner and provide a service not a product, so last year I paid under £100 in tax. I am encouraged to employ and help the economy. The UK economy is very like the USA's. I work hard and employ some people, I get rewarded. I get free health care, which I will admit is failing. I have always said all or nothing. Proper socialism or proper capitalism. We are stuck somewhere in the middle and it doesn't work.
So you trade the state of the state (Stable country -I'd argue that too) over humanity (Come on it was Saddam) but at the same time advocate for those that on a small scale blow themselves to bits in shopping malls. I really don't get you Irish. The problem with your idea of a countries natural political evolution (sounds great) is -even if the US were to buy into it, China wouldn't.JahManRed wrote:
The Iraqi people as we can see are fiercely tribal divided society. Arab culture is different to Christian western society. Saddam was brutal, but he held the country together. The administration was warned by experts they employ that it would happen and they ignored them. They had their eye on the oil and strategic location and not on the people of Iraqi. The Iraqi and all the Arab nations in the middle east should be allowed to evolve over time as we did and over throw their dictator and create their own destiny. It wouldn't have taken long as they would be drooling at the mouth at all the shinny consumables. China are moving forward after the consumer utopia, the ME could have been next, if they had been left alone. Again, if it was all about freeing the Iraqi people as you say then their are plenty of other candidates out their being ignored.
I agree there are several other countries that need help. And the US is helping where possible and even today waiting in the wings to help. If you feel your countries resources are better used elsewhere then it is y'all s responsibly to get your government to go to different country (or not at all) your people pick deserving and not wait for the US to go there first following behind... (you Brits know I love ya!)... and you too Jah...
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
PATRIOT Act is an acronym: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_actJahManRed wrote:
Yeah I see Bush doing it. The patriot act (even its name suggests to appose it makes you unpatriotic),
Read the content here: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin … ubl056.107
No nefarious purpose behind the name, other than it made a catchy acronym yet still relayed the intent of the Act.
Try again.JahManRed wrote:
the military’s Total Information Awareness Program to create comprehensive data profiles on citizens,
TIA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatio … ess_Office
Go ahead and overlook the actual mission behind it and focus on the name instead (style over substance). Don't bother to research the actual testimony of the officials involved when confronted with tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.
Can you please point to US citizens who have been "indefinitely detained"? I couldn't find any reports of any.JahManRed wrote:
the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens,
Military commissions are authorized...why is that a problem?JahManRed wrote:
the proposed use of military commissions, the status of detainees held in Guantanamo Bay and reports of use of torture.
Wiki wrote:
On 29 June 2006, the Supreme Court handed down its decision in the case "Hamdan v. Rumsfeld" Docket 05-194, with a 5-3 decision for Salim Ahmed Hamdan, effectively declaring that trying Guantanamo Bay detainees under the Guantanamo military commission (known also as Military Tribunal) was illegal under US law and the Geneva Conventions.[2]
Quoting the judgement (Paragraph 4, page 4), "4. The military commission at issue lacks the power to proceed because its structure and procedures violate both the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) and the four Geneva Conventions signed in 1949." Ultimately the Supreme Court ruled that President George W. Bush does not have the sole authority to hold tribunals and is required to get authorization to do so from the United States Congress.
With the War Crimes Act in mind, this ruling presented the Bush administration with the risk of criminal liability for war crimes. To address these legal problems, among other reasons, the Military Commissions Act was adopted.
Communists ARE left-wing. However, fascism lies on the extreme right. Two sides of the same coin.JahManRed wrote:
"communism is left wing stuff" LOL yeah that explains it. So the Democrats, by your definition are Left wing, so they are like Communists? Seams anyone who questions the state, particularly one run by a right wing republican party is a Communist to you. BTW the democrats are center right by European standards. I see no difference TBH. Clinton liked to start wars too.
Regardless, I don't believe he was saying Dems are Communists, just that they share some of the same political ideas.
Just because you don't see the effort to catch UBL doesn't mean it isn't there. It has been repeatedly stated that UBL is nearly irrelevant in the fight anymore. Catching him, while a symbolic victory, wouldn't make any difference in the fight against AQ or terrorism writ large.JahManRed wrote:
It doesn't prove their is any dark sinister plot. But you have to ask yourself, with the hundreds of thousands of troops and trillions of dollars being pumped into wars which were spring boarded of 9/11, that some visible efforts would be made to catch the guy who planned and funded it?
Peace in the ME must be inconvenient for Europe, since they've done the square root of fuckall to work towards a peace agreement.
Egypt/Israeli Peace Agreement: Brokered by US
Jordan/Israeli Peace Agreement: US
Oslo Accords between Israel and PLO: US (I guess a European power provided a place for us to work...)
Where the fuck is Europe--or any other major power--trying to work toward peace in the region? Bitch like hell that the US supports Israel, bitch like hell that the US isn't doing more--but for God's sake, whatever you do, don't fucking work toward it yourself. Loud as hell when it comes time to whine about the situation, but fucking crickets chirping when it comes to doing something about it.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turn them all Buddhist then. No one's ever strapped C4 to their chest in the name of a Buddhist god. There was a documentary that came out recently about an experiment to share Buddhist teachings with inmates in an California prison. Prison violence went down until Christian fundamentalists protested and had x-tianity reinstalled. Then violence went back up to where it had been.Zefar wrote:
Me thinks it's the religion that's the problem here. Get rid of one, preferably Islam and I'm quite sure it will calm down A LOT.
Hmm I was gonna write a big rant but seeing that I did it last time about Islam and such people kinda went wtf, so I'll skip this time. But I'll sure as hell think it will be a lot more quiet if Islam gets deleted completely from earth.
Now think about it.
No angry Muslims who wanna cut the head/arm of a dannish writer for making picture of Mo hammed.
No honor killing as it only seems to come from families with Islamic background.
No treating women like possessions.
No punnishing women when they are being raped.
No Jihads who scream "FOR ALLAH" before they blow themself up.
Possible a lot of more things to.
Those people could stick to Jewish or Christian religion. Both of them are pretty peacefull except for Christian in a certain state where they JAIL people for teaching about evolution. JESUS CHRIST!
EDIT: This is it http://movies.com/the-dhamma-brothers/r … ocumentary
Last edited by chittydog (2008-05-21 17:51:57)
I searched in the Merriam-Webster and there's a picture of you under naive.DBBrinson1 wrote:
You really wrote "labeling and killing innocent.... creates more terrorists and multiplies the problem". You are absolutely right. However your statements made defend a people willing to blow themselves to bits in crowed areas where elders and children dine. I know how you and Cam see the US and Israel. However it is ya'll that defend a people whom discriminate on sub-barbaric levels. On top of it all you're critical of the US when we do catch these fuckers first we show them mercy. Are we perfect? No. Is it the best solution? Better than killing them. I know Ironchef will argue that Gitmo creates bombers, but I actually trust my President and Government on this one.
Wait, do you really think Allende was a commie? Lol. Do you really think that the CIA did not know that Pinochet was a murderer? Why didn't the CIA take him out after killing thousands of Chilean people? Do you know that Noriega worked for the CIA?DBBrinson1 wrote:
~tip hat to you~ But.
Pinonchet - 1. The US was in a cold war with the Soviet Union. I bet the election was rigged and Salvador Allende got in.
2. I'd wager money that Pinochet promised to give it back to the people and got power hungry.
3. I'd wager even more money that if the CIA had know Pino's true intentions they'd have killed him.
Col. Hugo Banzer - 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempora … an_history ..
2. I like the part in "Early 20th century" under "military rule"
Gen. Branco- 1. I bet he was included in part of the deal above
2. See Pinochet #1
If Communism had won out do You think that there would be a "Brazil" or "Bolivia" today?
Noriega- What did we do to him? Didn't we take him out?
What Saddam, that guy shaking hands with Rumsfeld back in 1983 or the one who was hung? Do you really think the US helped a bit in Iraq? Or in Afghanistan? Define help. Again, naive.DBBrinson1 wrote:
So you trade the state of the state (Stable country -I'd argue that too) over humanity (Come on it was Saddam) but at the same time advocate for those that on a small scale blow themselves to bits in shopping malls. I really don't get you Irish. The problem with your idea of a countries natural political evolution (sounds great) is -even if the US were to buy into it, China wouldn't.
I agree there are several other countries that need help. And the US is helping where possible and even today waiting in the wings to help. If you feel your countries resources are better used elsewhere then it is y'all s responsibly to get your government to go to different country (or not at all) your people pick deserving and not wait for the US to go there first following behind... (you Brits know I love ya!)... and you too Jah...
Last edited by sergeriver (2008-05-21 17:54:27)
Wow. SNAP.. That totally blew me away. Great retort. Well thought out. I'm kinda flattered you had to use a dictionary when reading my post. How far did you reach back for that one?.. But at any rate....Way to contribute! +1!sergeriver wrote:
I searched in the Merriam-Webster and there's a picture of you under naive.
Again. What did the US end up doing to him?sergeriver wrote:
Wait, do you really think Allende was a commie? Lol. Do you really think that the CIA did not know that Pinochet was a murderer? Why didn't the CIA take him out after killing thousands of Chilean people? Do you know that Noriega worked for the CIA?
Fine... You totally got me there. For the last 2 decades DONALD RUMSIFIELD had been setting up his chance to fuck over Saddam. Evil Donnie knew that Saddam once in power would totally abuse it to the point where he could swoop in not as President but as mighty Secretary of Defense, kick his ass out, and then be the hero!sergeriver wrote:
What Saddam, that guy shaking hands with Rumsfeld back in 1983 or the one who was hung? Do you really think the US helped a bit in Iraq? Or in Afghanistan? Define help. Again, naive.
*edit... I need a beer.
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2008-05-21 18:20:49)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Europe, along with the rest of the world have been in agreement for decades about the appropriate steps to get to peace in with Israel. Israel goes back to the 1967 borders, disarms it's nuclear weapons, stops invading other countries and comitting grave breaches of the Geneva convention. Palestine is created as a second full state and everyone recognises everyones right to be a country and exist. The problem is that the US vetos it every time. In fact, the US tends to veto most useful steps towards peace between Israel and the middle east.FEOS wrote:
Peace in the ME must be inconvenient for Europe, since they've done the square root of fuckall to work towards a peace agreement.
Egypt/Israeli Peace Agreement: Brokered by US
Jordan/Israeli Peace Agreement: US
Oslo Accords between Israel and PLO: US (I guess a European power provided a place for us to work...)
Where the fuck is Europe--or any other major power--trying to work toward peace in the region? Bitch like hell that the US supports Israel, bitch like hell that the US isn't doing more--but for God's sake, whatever you do, don't fucking work toward it yourself. Loud as hell when it comes time to whine about the situation, but fucking crickets chirping when it comes to doing something about it.
If the US would leave the peace process alone for a couple of years and just abstain form any votes regarding Israel it's be sorted damned quickly. Any peace talks that aren't on US terms will be ignored or vetoed and Israel have to do whatever the US says hence there's no point to any other country trying to enter into negotiations because the the whole world is already in agreement, it's just that the Us uses it's power to block it.
The issue isn't Europe not doing anything to broker peace in the middle east, it's the US blocking peace in the middle east. The ball is firmly in America's court to solve this one.
Ok, you are right. The US took Noriega out. The US took Saddam out. But, in both cases, the US help them to get where they were. And pls, don't make differences between the Secretary of Defense and the government. Rumsfeld was there coz Reagan sent him in representation of the US. And don't think Rumsfeld didn't know what kind of asshat Saddam was.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Wow. SNAP.. That totally blew me away. Great retort. Well thought out. I'm kinda flattered you had to use a dictionary when reading my post. How far did you reach back for that one?.. But at any rate....Way to contribute! +1!sergeriver wrote:
I searched in the Merriam-Webster and there's a picture of you under naive.Again. What did the US end up doing to him?sergeriver wrote:
Wait, do you really think Allende was a commie? Lol. Do you really think that the CIA did not know that Pinochet was a murderer? Why didn't the CIA take him out after killing thousands of Chilean people? Do you know that Noriega worked for the CIA?Fine... You totally got me there. For the last 2 decades DONALD RUMSIFIELD had been setting up his chance to fuck over Saddam. Evil Donnie knew that Saddam once in power would totally abuse it to the point where he could swoop in not as President but as mighty Secretary of Defense, kick his ass out, and then be the hero!sergeriver wrote:
What Saddam, that guy shaking hands with Rumsfeld back in 1983 or the one who was hung? Do you really think the US helped a bit in Iraq? Or in Afghanistan? Define help. Again, naive.
*edit... I need a beer.
Now, have your beer.
Wow you do get excited - no swearing in D&ST remember?Where the fuck is Europe--or any other major power--trying to work toward peace in the region? Bitch like hell that the US supports Israel, bitch like hell that the US isn't doing more--but for God's sake, whatever you do, don't fucking work toward it yourself. Loud as hell when it comes time to whine about the situation, but fucking crickets chirping when it comes to doing something about it.
Europe and, the rest of the word have tried to do plenty, however with the US feeding Israel support, money and munitions there is precisely zero point in trying to achieve anything in the ME.
Israel has no intention of making any concession towards peace - in fact Israel wants to take yet more land from the Arabs, look at the settlements.
With the US backing Israel no matter what Israel knows it never will have to give a single concession.
Here are some suggestions for the US:-
Stop vetoing anti-Israel motions in the UN. The 'Negroponte Doctrine' is just childish.
Stop giving U$6bn a year to Israel to fund its war machine and dole for the orthodox zionist layabouts who don't work or fight in the army but just cause trouble.
Stop threatening to invade, and actually invading, any nation which appears it could be a threat to Israel.
Tell Israel to STFU and come to an agreement or America removes its protective umbrella.
Until the above happens there is not going to be any progress.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-05-22 06:21:23)
Fuck Israel
Abbreviated swearing is cool though.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wow you do get excited - no swearing in D&ST remember?Where the fuck is Europe--or any other major power--trying to work toward peace in the region? Bitch like hell that the US supports Israel, bitch like hell that the US isn't doing more--but for God's sake, whatever you do, don't fucking work toward it yourself. Loud as hell when it comes time to whine about the situation, but fucking crickets chirping when it comes to doing something about it.
Europe and, the rest of the word have tried to do plenty, however with the US feeding Israel support, money and munitions there is precisely zero point in trying to achieve anything in the ME.
Israel has no intention of making any concession towards peace - in fact Israel wants to take yet more land from the Arabs, look at the settlements.
With the US backing Israel no matter what Israel knows it never will have to give a single concession.
Here are some suggestions for the US:-
Stop vetoing anti-Israel motions in the UN. The 'Negroponte Doctrine' is just childish.
Stop giving U$6bn a year to Israel to fund its war machine and dole for the orthodox zionist layabouts who don't work or fight in the army but just cause trouble.
Stop threatening to invade, and actually invading, any nation which appears it could be a threat to Israel.
Tell Israel to STFU and come to an agreement or America removes its protective umbrella.
Until the above happens there is not going to be any progress.
And you are incorrect sir. It is not the US constantly undermining UN in the ME. It is corrupt UN officials and countries like China & Russia. I find it humorous sad that you advocate to America not to help protect its allys interests but reward countries which kill US citizens and allies.
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2008-05-22 06:30:45)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
So it's corrupt officials and China and Russia that cause the US to singly veto UN resolutions. How does China and Russia manage the fairly spectacular job of undermining the peace process by voting for it whereas the US manages to support the peace process by blocking it?DBBrinson1 wrote:
Abbreviated swearing is cool though.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wow you do get excited - no swearing in D&ST remember?Where the fuck is Europe--or any other major power--trying to work toward peace in the region? Bitch like hell that the US supports Israel, bitch like hell that the US isn't doing more--but for God's sake, whatever you do, don't fucking work toward it yourself. Loud as hell when it comes time to whine about the situation, but fucking crickets chirping when it comes to doing something about it.
Europe and, the rest of the word have tried to do plenty, however with the US feeding Israel support, money and munitions there is precisely zero point in trying to achieve anything in the ME.
Israel has no intention of making any concession towards peace - in fact Israel wants to take yet more land from the Arabs, look at the settlements.
With the US backing Israel no matter what Israel knows it never will have to give a single concession.
Here are some suggestions for the US:-
Stop vetoing anti-Israel motions in the UN. The 'Negroponte Doctrine' is just childish.
Stop giving U$6bn a year to Israel to fund its war machine and dole for the orthodox zionist layabouts who don't work or fight in the army but just cause trouble.
Stop threatening to invade, and actually invading, any nation which appears it could be a threat to Israel.
Tell Israel to STFU and come to an agreement or America removes its protective umbrella.
Until the above happens there is not going to be any progress.
And you are incorrect sir. It is not the US constantly undermining UN in the ME. It is corrupt UN officials and countries like China & Russia. I find it humorous sad that you advocate to America not to help protect its allys interests but reward countries which kill US citizens and allies.
It's worth pointing out that plenty of Israelis beleive that Israels action must be stopped because of the problems it creates for Israel. Forcing Israels leadership to change it's policies may actually be a protection of Israelis interests.
Er wut? Where did I say that? I'm not advocating 'rewarding' anyone, just getting a peace process working on a level field.I find it sad that you advocate to America not to help protect its allys interests but reward countries which kill US citizens and allies.
Explain again how Israel is a US ally?
It was in part bogus Israeli intel which caused the Iraq invasion, when are you thanking them for that one?
Are Israelis fighting and dying in Afghanistan or Iraq?
Has Israel EVER done ANYTHING for the US?
And yes, please, tell us how China and Russia made the US veto all those Israel related motions in the UNSC.
Fuck Israel
Not that I remember *coug* AIPAC *cough*Dilbert_X wrote:
Explain again how Israel is a US ally?
Has Israel EVER done ANYTHING for the US?
It's not our fault that they're a bad ally.Dilbert_X wrote:
Explain again how Israel is a US ally?
Has Israel EVER done ANYTHING for the US?
peace in the Middle east= bah what a laugh. you got the isralis and palastinians fighting each other for land that started since the beginning of time. and i though religion is supposed to bring peace and unity, not division. too many religious bigots twisting the minds of other people.
Ah, that's right. Because the UN has anything at all to do with whether one or more of the major European powers takes it upon themselves to sit down with the Israelis, Palestinians, and others in the region. No, it's much easier to just complain about something you refuse to attempt to resolve.PureFodder wrote:
Europe, along with the rest of the world have been in agreement for decades about the appropriate steps to get to peace in with Israel. Israel goes back to the 1967 borders, disarms it's nuclear weapons, stops invading other countries and comitting grave breaches of the Geneva convention. Palestine is created as a second full state and everyone recognises everyones right to be a country and exist. The problem is that the US vetos it every time. In fact, the US tends to veto most useful steps towards peace between Israel and the middle east.
If the US would leave the peace process alone for a couple of years and just abstain form any votes regarding Israel it's be sorted damned quickly. Any peace talks that aren't on US terms will be ignored or vetoed and Israel have to do whatever the US says hence there's no point to any other country trying to enter into negotiations because the the whole world is already in agreement, it's just that the Us uses it's power to block it.
The issue isn't Europe not doing anything to broker peace in the middle east, it's the US blocking peace in the middle east. The ball is firmly in America's court to solve this one.
Don't blame UNSC votes on your own governments' total lack of effort on the ME peace process.
It's like you guys are sitting there watching the US doing all the heavy lifting and then saying, "be sure to lift with your legs and not your back".
Last edited by FEOS (2008-05-22 15:45:16)
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Really? Such as?Dilbert_X wrote:
Wow you do get excited - no swearing in D&ST remember?Where the fuck is Europe--or any other major power--trying to work toward peace in the region? Bitch like hell that the US supports Israel, bitch like hell that the US isn't doing more--but for God's sake, whatever you do, don't fucking work toward it yourself. Loud as hell when it comes time to whine about the situation, but fucking crickets chirping when it comes to doing something about it.
Europe and, the rest of the word have tried to do plenty
Read the news.Dilbert_X wrote:
however with the US feeding Israel support, money and munitions there is precisely zero point in trying to achieve anything in the ME.
Israel has no intention of making any concession towards peace - in fact Israel wants to take yet more land from the Arabs, look at the settlements.
With the US backing Israel no matter what Israel knows it never will have to give a single concession.
Has nothing to do with European countries doing nothing with regard to facilitating peace talks.Dilbert_X wrote:
Here are some suggestions for the US:-
Stop vetoing anti-Israel motions in the UN. The 'Negroponte Doctrine' is just childish.
Has nothing to do with European countries doing nothing with regard to facilitating peace talks.Dilbert_X wrote:
Stop giving U$6bn a year to Israel to fund its war machine and dole for the orthodox zionist layabouts who don't work or fight in the army but just cause trouble.
And I thought socialist values were the epitome of high government policy....
Who threatened to invade Iran? Or Syria?Dilbert_X wrote:
Stop threatening to invade, and actually invading, any nation which appears it could be a threat to Israel.
Israel does a pretty good job of putting up its own protective umbrella.Dilbert_X wrote:
Tell Israel to STFU and come to an agreement or America removes its protective umbrella.
Perhaps if Europeans quit bitching about it and actually DID something to foster peace talks amongst the parties involved, there might be progress as well.Dilbert_X wrote:
Until the above happens there is not going to be any progress.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
FEOS wrote:
Israel does a pretty good job of putting up its own protective umbrella.
Easy questions.sergeriver wrote:
Questions:
-Are these countries taking any benefit from this situation?
-Why there isn't peace in the ME?
-Is peace in the ME inconvenient?
- Arab dictators benefit from the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs because a final peace agreement would lead to trade between the arab countries and Israel. Trade with Israel would create large numbers of middle-class merchants in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, etc. They would want political rights. Peace in Palestine = end of arab dictatorships.
- The reason there isn't peace between the Israelis and Palestinian Arabs has changed over time. Currently it is because Iran does not want peace. The Palestinians want peace, the Israelis want peace, but Iran controls Hamas (and other groups) and they constantly inflame and prolong the conflict. No Hamas = peace in Palestine.
- Peace in the ME is inconvenient for Iran because Israel is its most dangerous regional enemy. The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians weakens Israel militarily, economically and reputationally, making it less of a threat to Iran.
Yes, I know I assigned no blame whatsoever to Israel. The Israelis are not angels but they understand the demographic threat to their country's Jewish character. They are desperate for peace. They can't make it until someone controls Hamas. At this point Iran is the only obstacle to peace.
I don't recall the US protecting Israel in any of her wars. They pretty much operated on their own, unless you're privy to some information nobody else is.sergeriver wrote:
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8758/umbrellann7.jpgFEOS wrote:
Israel does a pretty good job of putting up its own protective umbrella.
And don't use the supply argument, as the countries Israel has historically fought have been armed to the teeth by the USSR (and then Russia).
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
In Gulf War I the US went after the scuds, Gulf War II was at least in part about removing Iraqi support for the Palestinians, current threats against Iran are largely about protecting Israel.I don't recall the US protecting Israel in any of her wars. They pretty much operated on their own, unless you're privy to some information nobody else is.
In Israels wars US resupply of munitions has been critical (as far as I remember). If Israel had looked like losing I bet the US would have stepped in.
The US shares intel and particularly satellite data which has proven strategically crucial to the Israelis over the years. You can argue if thats protection or not.
Fuck Israel
For example the Middle East Quartet, of which the US is part.Really? Such as?
The US has already invaded Iraq, Iran is clearly in the sights for military action now. Syria - Dunno, I've not looked too closely but I'll bet your fellow Pentagoons have a plan ready to go.Who threatened to invade Iran? Or Syria?
I hope it works out, we'll wait and see if Israel dismantles its illegal settlements in Syria. Its just as likely a distraction from Olmerts criminal enquiry, they're cynical like that.Read the news.
As stated before, there is very limited point in promoting peace talks until Israel and the US start acting like grown-up members of the UN.Has nothing to do with European countries doing nothing with regard to facilitating peace talks.
As humans are basically overgrown kids here's an analogy for you, hope you like it.
A 10 year old bully kid is beating to a pulp a defenceless 8 year old kid in the schoolyard. Behind the bully kid stands his 15yr old mate (from another school, no-ones really sure why he's there) with a baseball bat alternately shouting 'Hit him harder! oh better stop, hit him harder! look out teachers watching, here try these knuckledusters, don't hit so hard!'.
What do you do?
Walk away and do nothing? You're a coward and as bad as the bully.
Take on the bully, and get beaten to mush by his mate? Brave but foolhardy.
Stand on the sidelines shouting - 'Guys, lets sort this out like adults' and get accused of whining?
Run to the teacher - again a whiner.
Get his cousins together and throw pebbles at the bully and his mate? Doesn't achieve much but provides a distraction and makes you feel like you're doing something, might as well as you're next for a pasting whatever happens.
Put together a plan, sneak up behind the mate and stick a pin in his arse? Doesn't achieve much, but either he'll run off blubbing (bullies rarely like their own medicine) or go nuts and lay into all and sundry exposing himself for the thug he is. Plus while he's flailing blindly you'll be able to get in a few good smacks.
Personally I'd find out where the bully and his mate live and put snakes in their beds
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-05-23 00:59:46)
Fuck Israel
How about this then. in 2003 a Swiss diplomat brought an offer from Iran to the US of full talks about the nuclear program, normalisation of relations and full recognition of Israel. The US censured the Swiss diplomat for daring to bring the offer to them. As Israel can't do anything that the US doesn't approve of, Europeans attemting peace talks is pointless as America won't accept it and therefore Israel can't accept it either.FEOS wrote:
Ah, that's right. Because the UN has anything at all to do with whether one or more of the major European powers takes it upon themselves to sit down with the Israelis, Palestinians, and others in the region. No, it's much easier to just complain about something you refuse to attempt to resolve.PureFodder wrote:
Europe, along with the rest of the world have been in agreement for decades about the appropriate steps to get to peace in with Israel. Israel goes back to the 1967 borders, disarms it's nuclear weapons, stops invading other countries and comitting grave breaches of the Geneva convention. Palestine is created as a second full state and everyone recognises everyones right to be a country and exist. The problem is that the US vetos it every time. In fact, the US tends to veto most useful steps towards peace between Israel and the middle east.
If the US would leave the peace process alone for a couple of years and just abstain form any votes regarding Israel it's be sorted damned quickly. Any peace talks that aren't on US terms will be ignored or vetoed and Israel have to do whatever the US says hence there's no point to any other country trying to enter into negotiations because the the whole world is already in agreement, it's just that the Us uses it's power to block it.
The issue isn't Europe not doing anything to broker peace in the middle east, it's the US blocking peace in the middle east. The ball is firmly in America's court to solve this one.
Don't blame UNSC votes on your own governments' total lack of effort on the ME peace process.
It's like you guys are sitting there watching the US doing all the heavy lifting and then saying, "be sure to lift with your legs and not your back".
The vetoed UN resolutions are the basis of any peace in the middle east, so the efforts to get them passed and their subsequent veto by the US are clear efforts to sort out the peace process. The only reason that the US enter into any talks is because they actively prevent any other attempts. If the US would just stop vetoing everything regarding Israel then the peace process can continue.
It's more than clear that any attempt by anyone other than the US to sort out the middle east will be blocked by the US. Until the US stop doing that then attempts by other nations to broker peace in the middle east is pointless.