Benzin
Member
+576|6422
Let me remind our European members of one fact (because I find that Europeans are always confused by American patriotism and other attached things) that I have had to repeat many times being an American studying and living in Europe: Just because a government does something, does not represent the ENTIRE population of that country; especially an unpopular government (I cannot wait until November).

But don't trash on others for being overly patriotic. Europeans have it the same way with football: they go CRAZY over the game. Americans have their games, too, but we are also very patriotic and supportive of the people that serve in our armed forces. Our country was only formed just shy of 300 years ago, and the patriotism that was created when that happened has been a tradition in the American culture. Whether or not the American people popularly support the government in power when it has fallen from grace (as the Bush administration did), Americans always support the soldiers serving their country.

Europeans, for the most part, have conscription and patriotism has never been a part of the culture. That's fine, I am NOT BASHING on that in any way, it's just a difference of culture.

Personally, I feel bad for the soldiers of the UK. I met an officer in the UK Army (maybe the RAF, I can't exactly remember; but pretty sure the Army) and he commented that the UK soldiers have no where near the support back home that guys get here like the USO program and such. They come home, get welcomed back and that's it for the most part. It isn't a cultural support from what I have seen in news reports and what I have had related back to me from the Brits I've spoken with about the subject. But once again, it's a cultural difference. No biggy.

The thing is, because most Europeans don't have that part of culture that Americans have, they don't really understand it and think we're all big and stupid cavemen because of it. It's not that we like war or fighting or whatever, but we do have a cultural appreciation for the soldiers in our military (which is strictly voluntary, and that also has a lot to do with it).

If you want a good glimpse into that culture, I invite you to read books by Tom Clancy. He spells it out very well in his writing. I'm reading "Without Remorse" at the moment which takes place back during the Vietnam time period and if you're familiar with history, soldiers at the time didn't get treated very well because it was a totally screwed up war and the draft wasn't exactly popular. Anyway. If you have the time and are interested in reading some awesome suspense spy/military novels and also want to get an idea of what it is like, I invite you to read them. I don't know if they've been translated into Finnish, but the original language is always the best language to read something in.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6828|North Carolina
Very good points...  We also have one of the most active militaries in the world, so that probably has a lot to do with the respect.  Our soldiers generally see more action than any other major country's military, so when people join with the full knowledge that they might die, that often entails a lot of respect for a volunteer force.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7024|132 and Bush

It is unfortunate that so many people choose to bash our cultural differences (usually without understanding them). Memorial day is about appreciating sacrifice. The soldier does not make the policy.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Benzin
Member
+576|6422
Many Americans are just as guilty in regards to bashing things they don't understand. It's not an American or European or Asian trait: it's a human trait.

Like today I heard a pastor in America who called Islam an anti-Christ and godless religion. He tried to throw his support in for McCain and McCain told him to GTFO.
Freezer7Pro
I don't come here a lot anymore.
+1,447|6620|Winland

That's pretty much what I tried to say in the other thread, with the exception of my first post, but all I recieved by that was flames and personal attack.

Last edited by Freezer7Pro (2008-05-23 13:47:26)

The idea of any hi-fi system is to reproduce the source material as faithfully as possible, and to deliberately add distortion to everything you hear (due to amplifier deficiencies) because it sounds 'nice' is simply not high fidelity. If that is what you want to hear then there is no problem with that, but by adding so much additional material (by way of harmonics and intermodulation) you have a tailored sound system, not a hi-fi. - Rod Elliot, ESP
Benzin
Member
+576|6422
Try being a bit more diplomatic and choose your words carefully. This is the Internet, we're just reading your thoughts. You have to try and work the words a bit so we don't all think you're a stuck up, Euro-pinko-commie bastard.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7072

Freezer7Pro wrote:

That's pretty much what I tried to say in the other thread, with the exception of my first post, but all I recieved by that was flames and personal attack.
Ditto. I was quite careful to stress what I was on about as well.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7044|London, England
I think what I didn't like is the fact that you shove it down peoples throat like we don't know any better. That's what pissed me off. Not the actual patriotic bit. I guess it stems from the fact that I hate it when people try to push things onto me, and I always view Americans as trying to push Christianity in my face (same goes with alot of Paki's talking about Islam, just stfu you fucking twats) - It might be inadvertently and It might just be me, but that's what I feel. And then so that translates into me getting even more annoyed when they try to start preaching that we somehow don't respect our troops and we need "reminders" and shit like that. Man, fuck that. I don't need a fucking reminder.

Fuck all that shit. For fuck sake. If you want to do your bit, go sign up. I'm going to be joining the RAF.

And I especially hate how it's always Marines Marines Marines just because of the fucking entertainment Industry and you get these space marines and shit (i mean wtf). Forgive me if I'm a little sick of seeing them.

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-05-23 14:19:58)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6828|North Carolina
I know what you mean, Mek.  I don't like religion or patriotism either.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6914|Northern California
Agreed.  I don't like religion or patriotism.  Just kidding.  I like them both.

If my son is born Monday, I'ma name him USMARINE!  Or maybe just GI Joe.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6553|North Tonawanda, NY

Freezer7Pro wrote:

That's pretty much what I tried to say in the other thread, with the exception of my first post, but all I recieved by that was flames and personal attack.
I think you are referring to my posts responding to you, right?

I made no personal attacks.  I merely pointed out that people who claim that "there will be flames" are responsible for 'flaming'.

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

I think what I didn't like is the fact that you shove it down peoples throat like we don't know any better. That's what pissed me off. Not the actual patriotic bit. I guess it stems from the fact that I hate it when people try to push things onto me, and I always view Americans as trying to push Christianity in my face (same goes with alot of Paki's talking about Islam, just stfu you fucking twats) - It might be inadvertently and It might just be me, but that's what I feel. And then so that translates into me getting even more annoyed when they try to start preaching that we somehow don't respect our troops and we need "reminders" and shit like that. Man, fuck that. I don't need a fucking reminder.

Fuck all that shit. For fuck sake. If you want to do your bit, go sign up. I'm going to be joining the RAF.

And I especially hate how it's always Marines Marines Marines just because of the fucking entertainment Industry and you get these space marines and shit (i mean wtf). Forgive me if I'm a little sick of seeing them.
Pent up aggression or what?  The previous thread met none of the criterion you listed here as "annoying".  No one pushed religion, nothing claimed you don't respect your troops, and no one posted anything about "marines marines marines" being better than anything else somehow.  I can understand your sentiment regarding obnoxious 'fanboys' and people who try to convert you, but that thread was nothing of the sort and probably not the correct place to vent your anger.

Turquoise wrote:

I know what you mean, Mek.  I don't like religion or patriotism either.
Honoring the dead for their service is not blindly patriotic or overtly religious.  I can understand the sentiment, but in a thread about Memorial Day?  Please.
Monkey Spanker
Show it to the nice monkey.
+284|6675|England
Those soldiers that died for "our Freedom" thank you but they gave us the freedom to object to anything we wish as they gave you the freedom to support anything you wish. I kinda agree with Mek in a way i don't need to hear sabre rattling patriotism to be reminded of my freedoms & how i received them.

Last edited by smuder201 (2008-05-23 15:11:23)

Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
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SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6553|North Tonawanda, NY

smuder201 wrote:

Those soldiers that died for "our Freedom" thank you but they gave us the freedom to abject to anything we wish as they gave you the freedom to support anything you wish. I kinda agree with Mek in a way i don't need to hear sabre rattling patriotism to be reminded of my freedoms & how i received them.
You certainly fall into an abject state of humanity when you can't let people honor the dead in peace.

There is a time and a place for everything, and it makes you utterly tactless to turn a memorial thread into a political statement.  In a forum where you choose to click on a link to read a thread is hardly forcing any 'sabre rattling patriotism' on you.
Monkey Spanker
Show it to the nice monkey.
+284|6675|England

SenorToenails wrote:

smuder201 wrote:

Those soldiers that died for "our Freedom" thank you but they gave us the freedom to abject to anything we wish as they gave you the freedom to support anything you wish. I kinda agree with Mek in a way i don't need to hear sabre rattling patriotism to be reminded of my freedoms & how i received them.
You certainly fall into an abject state of humanity when you can't let people honor the dead in peace.

There is a time and a place for everything, and it makes you utterly tactless to turn a memorial thread into a political statement.  In a forum where you choose to click on a link to read a thread is hardly forcing any 'sabre rattling patriotism' on you.
Excuse me this thread is in reply to the memorial thread so if i wish i can turn it in to a political statement if you read my post properly you will see that i am saying that we all have the right to say what we like because of the sacrifice of soldiers of all nations and you will notice i thanked them. The only thing i am guilty of is reinforcing my right to have my say as you have yours, and how am i stopping anyone from honouring the dead; by posting in a forum how is that stopping anyone. In fact i encourage everyone to say what they like whether they support our troops or not it is there choice.

I would like to thank all of our British soldiers on tour where ever they are for giving me the freedom to argue over the Internet about the freedoms they gave me by laying down there lives.

Last edited by smuder201 (2008-05-23 15:29:28)

Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
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Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6891
Remember that you could just as easily have been born is Ethiopia or Uzbekistan. Being proud of your country is stupid unless you did something really, really important/big to it. So you would have to be like Washington or Bismark or Du Gaulle to claim that.
thtthht
maximum bullshit
+50|6754|teh alien spaceshit

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

I think what I didn't like is the fact that you shove it down peoples throat like we don't know any better. That's what pissed me off. Not the actual patriotic bit. I guess it stems from the fact that I hate it when people try to push things onto me, and I always view Americans as trying to push Christianity in my face (same goes with alot of Paki's talking about Islam, just stfu you fucking twats) - It might be inadvertently and It might just be me, but that's what I feel. And then so that translates into me getting even more annoyed when they try to start preaching that we somehow don't respect our troops and we need "reminders" and shit like that. Man, fuck that. I don't need a fucking reminder.

Fuck all that shit. For fuck sake. If you want to do your bit, go sign up. I'm going to be joining the RAF.

And I especially hate how it's always Marines Marines Marines just because of the fucking entertainment Industry and you get these space marines and shit (i mean wtf). Forgive me if I'm a little sick of seeing them.
TBH, I have never seen or heard anyone trying to shove patriotism down someone's throat. Religion, yes, but not patriotism.
We can be loud, but it's the European people that seem to be offended first, and that's when the argument begins.
Forget about Hollywood.
The only good war movie I have seen recently was Black Hawk Down, and 90% of the movies made by Hollywood portray our soldiers and marines as loud mouthed pussies and/or rapists.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7024|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

I know what you mean, Mek.  I don't like religion or patriotism either.

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

I think what I didn't like is the fact that you shove it down peoples throat like we don't know any better. That's what pissed me off. Not the actual patriotic bit.
I think you misunderstand him. Probably like how you misunderstand patriotism. Pride and allegiance are not the same thing.
There are varying degrees of patriotism.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6828|North Carolina

SenorToenails wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I know what you mean, Mek.  I don't like religion or patriotism either.
Honoring the dead for their service is not blindly patriotic or overtly religious.  I can understand the sentiment, but in a thread about Memorial Day?  Please.
I have little to no pride in country, only in the dignity of fellow humans that choose to serve others before themselves.

It's not about being proud of the nation you live in, it's about being proud of certain types of people you interact with.

Now, I'm definitely thankful that I live in a free, First World country, but that's a bit different from pride.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7072

SenorToenails wrote:

Freezer7Pro wrote:

That's pretty much what I tried to say in the other thread, with the exception of my first post, but all I recieved by that was flames and personal attack.
I think you are referring to my posts responding to you, right?

I made no personal attacks.  I merely pointed out that people who claim that "there will be flames" are responsible for 'flaming'.

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

I think what I didn't like is the fact that you shove it down peoples throat like we don't know any better. That's what pissed me off. Not the actual patriotic bit. I guess it stems from the fact that I hate it when people try to push things onto me, and I always view Americans as trying to push Christianity in my face (same goes with alot of Paki's talking about Islam, just stfu you fucking twats) - It might be inadvertently and It might just be me, but that's what I feel. And then so that translates into me getting even more annoyed when they try to start preaching that we somehow don't respect our troops and we need "reminders" and shit like that. Man, fuck that. I don't need a fucking reminder.

Fuck all that shit. For fuck sake. If you want to do your bit, go sign up. I'm going to be joining the RAF.

And I especially hate how it's always Marines Marines Marines just because of the fucking entertainment Industry and you get these space marines and shit (i mean wtf). Forgive me if I'm a little sick of seeing them.
Pent up aggression or what?  The previous thread met none of the criterion you listed here as "annoying".  No one pushed religion, nothing claimed you don't respect your troops, and no one posted anything about "marines marines marines" being better than anything else somehow.  I can understand your sentiment regarding obnoxious 'fanboys' and people who try to convert you, but that thread was nothing of the sort and probably not the correct place to vent your anger.

Turquoise wrote:

I know what you mean, Mek.  I don't like religion or patriotism either.
Honoring the dead for their service is not blindly patriotic or overtly religious.  I can understand the sentiment, but in a thread about Memorial Day?  Please.
Look, it's all very nice you're honouring the dead, but it's not even Memorial Day. Save the threads about Memorial Day for Memorial Day, and maybe people would take them a little more seriously.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6553|North Tonawanda, NY

Turquoise wrote:

I have little to no pride in country, only in the dignity of fellow humans that choose to serve others before themselves.

It's not about being proud of the nation you live in, it's about being proud of certain types of people you interact with.

Now, I'm definitely thankful that I live in a free, First World country, but that's a bit different from pride.
I'm glad you enumerated that for me.  That has next to nothing to do with anything I said, since patriotism is not the issue.

ghettoperson wrote:

Look, it's all very nice you're honouring the dead, but it's not even Memorial Day. Save the threads about Memorial Day for Memorial Day, and maybe people would take them a little more seriously.
Whatever.  If that thread had been made on May 26, there would have been some dickhead who showed up to trash the holiday.  I look at this kind of crap like how people protest funerals: it's tactless, and whatever message you have really ought to wait for another time and place.


Why does everyone assume that I made patriotism some sort of issue?  I didn't.  I argued with people based on tact and their own blatant hypocrisy.
ZombieVampire!
The Gecko
+69|6250

CapnNismo wrote:

Americans always support the soldiers serving their country.
Maybe that's what people are criticising.

CapnNismo wrote:

Europeans, for the most part, have conscription and patriotism has never been a part of the culture.
Uh........wrong.

I'd go find the thread you're commenting on, but the last time I got involved in one of those I got banned..............
Benzin
Member
+576|6422
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=101697&p=1 --- Original thread in the EE section

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

I think what I didn't like is the fact that you shove it down peoples throat like we don't know any better. That's what pissed me off. Not the actual patriotic bit. I guess it stems from the fact that I hate it when people try to push things onto me, and I always view Americans as trying to push Christianity in my face (same goes with alot of Paki's talking about Islam, just stfu you fucking twats) - It might be inadvertently and It might just be me, but that's what I feel. And then so that translates into me getting even more annoyed when they try to start preaching that we somehow don't respect our troops and we need "reminders" and shit like that. Man, fuck that. I don't need a fucking reminder.

Fuck all that shit. For fuck sake. If you want to do your bit, go sign up. I'm going to be joining the RAF.

And I especially hate how it's always Marines Marines Marines just because of the fucking entertainment Industry and you get these space marines and shit (i mean wtf). Forgive me if I'm a little sick of seeing them.
No one really shoved anything down your throat. Someone made a thread. You clicked it of your own free will. The thread wasn't an example of forcing anything down anyone's throat. Just a place where those that want to, can make a little memorial day post.

As far as Americans shoving religion down peoples' throats, though ... not sure where you get off with that. Sure, the media makes it out to be that way a lot of the time, but it really is not that way. In the southern states it is a bit more (another place I grew up in), but not so much as you truly might think. But I share your opinion - my faith is a private thing and I will choose who to share it with and I don't force it on others, and I don't like it when others force it on me.

smuder201 wrote:

Those soldiers that died for "our Freedom" thank you but they gave us the freedom to object to anything we wish as they gave you the freedom to support anything you wish. I kinda agree with Mek in a way i don't need to hear sabre rattling patriotism to be reminded of my freedoms & how i received them.
It wasn't anything to force down your throat, just a thread as a commemoration to soldiers that have lost their lives. You chose to click on the link, anyway.

ghettoperson wrote:

Look, it's all very nice you're honouring the dead, but it's not even Memorial Day. Save the threads about Memorial Day for Memorial Day, and maybe people would take them a little more seriously.
You and I both know that no matter when the thread would be posted, people would still be utterly tactless and impolite and post in that thread in a negative way.

ZombieVampire! wrote:

CapnNismo wrote:

Americans always support the soldiers serving their country.
Maybe that's what people are criticising.

CapnNismo wrote:

Europeans, for the most part, have conscription and patriotism has never been a part of the culture.
Uh........wrong.

I'd go find the thread you're commenting on, but the last time I got involved in one of those I got banned..............
Why does anyone find the need to criticize anything about supporting them? It's not supporting the war, or the cause of the war, or the killing, or whatever. It's about supporting the PEOPLE in the war that are on the ground and letting them know that their job is being appreciated. It's the same thing about supporting your local fire department or police force. You want them to know that even though they are paid poorly, their jobs are meaningful and the population and community supports them.




Once again, though. No one is bashing the FACT that you're saying what you're saying. The whole problem, and the reason I created this thread, is because people were posting in a MEMORIAL thread about Memorial Day. A thread that was created for honoring the fallen soldiers. It was never created to make political statements, it was never created to force a viewpoint on anyone else, just a public thread for those that wanted to could come and post their tributes. Simple as that. THIS thread that we are all replying to now is the debate thread. This is the political and viewpoint thread. Keep it here and out of the tribute thread. It's like those people who go to military funerals to protest the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just throws up a giant flag with: WTF? printed on it.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7072

CapnNismo wrote:

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=101697&p=1 --- Original thread in the EE section

ghettoperson wrote:

Look, it's all very nice you're honouring the dead, but it's not even Memorial Day. Save the threads about Memorial Day for Memorial Day, and maybe people would take them a little more seriously.
You and I both know that no matter when the thread would be posted, people would still be utterly tactless and impolite and post in that thread in a negative way.
I disagree tbh. Obviously I can't speak for everyone on the forum, but I'm pretty sure had someone ON MEMORIAL DAY created a thread called Memorial Day everyone would have paid their respects and left it alone. I don't have an issues with remembering the dead, what does annoy me is people constantly creating these threads with no actual content and no relevancy just to post some photos of flags or a shitting montage of photos with some stirring music ending with 'God Bless America' type shit. It's like the people that insist on posting those stupid 'where were you on the 11th of September' threads on a date not even in September.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6978
Who bashed Memorial Day?
Monkey Spanker
Show it to the nice monkey.
+284|6675|England

CameronPoe wrote:

Who bashed Memorial Day?
No one really has bashed Memorial day just some of the shenanigans that surround it, here in the UK we mourn the loss of our troops in a quiet & reflective way one could almost say a reserved way, that is the way some of us are, but in America it seems it is a celebration of freedom and thanking those who have/are/did serve in the armed forces, as the saying goes its horses for courses, as i have said before we all have the right to celebrate/mourn in our own way so those on both sides have to be aware that there will always be disagreement of some sort & it will be put in varying types of meaning & clarity as is there right to do so.
Quote of the year so far "Fifa 11 on the other hand... shiny things for mongos "-mtb0minime
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