djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6758|Oregon
Sorry If there's another thread about this. I did a cursory search and didn't find anything.
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The economic state of the United States and the world as a whole is in dire need of a punch to the balls.
The real estate market is in shambles, we are starting to see alarming global shortages in food (rice), and the price of crude oil has inflated gas prices to record levels.

Some say there's a solution. The senile delusions of John McCain have instilled a false sense of hope in half of the country.
The uninspired stance of Barack Obama has done nothing but lead the other half to think John McCain is senile.

There is a solution. It's certainly quite inconvenient, and it would require a bit of a national movement, but it exists, and this solution alone can right the national economy within the next decade, if it were implemented tomorrow.

If the United States government imposed a minimum gas price of 5 or 6 dollars a gallon and taxed that up to $8/gallon, not only would we increase federal income by an unprecedented amount, but because of the price, people would be less dependent on gas, thus lowering demand, and in turn, lowering the price of gas. So sure, we would have to deal with gas being at 8 dollars per gallon for 3 to 5 years, but the price would be far more stable than it is now, and we may actually see it decrease as demand lightens.

I think the best way to convince people that this would work is through a problems/answers section:

PROBLEM: I need my car to get to work/school/home. Without my car, I am stuck, and I certainly can't afford these gas prices.
SOLUTION: The amount that would be taxed per gallon would be so astronomical that the government's ability to spend on improving mass transit would quickly make us forget about our transportation problems. If buses, light rail, organized and sponsored carpools, subways and taxis were invested in to the degree that they COULD BE with that sort of money, we would have no problem going from place to place.

PROBLEM: Still, I don't have enough money. The economy is in shambles and I simply can't afford a bus pass, taxi ride or ticket... all which will cost more money as the companies are forced to spend more on your ridiculously price gas!
SOLUTION: When you begin spending less money on gas (because you will be driving less), you will start to spend more on domestic, "little-guy" products and luxuries. Money spent on gas redirects away from the country. Because of our dependence on foreign oil, the already ridiculous amount we're spending on gas is going into the pockets of the Saudi royal family and other middle-eastern capitalists. Wonder why our economy is bad? Because we're giving away all our cash. So, when you stop driving, you'll have more money to spend on restaurants, movies, etc. Then that money will be in the pockets of other Americans who can spend it on other things. Eventually, that money will come back around to you in the form of better wages, higher tax returns, or gas prices that actually get lower!

PROBLEM: Uh... I won't have more money, because as I JUST SAID... I'll be spending it on expensive mass transportation.
SOLUTION: With federal sponsorship of mass transportation, the price of bus passes, taxi rides and train tickets should stay consistent with what it's currently at. The money the gov't is making in taxes will be used to keep transportation efficient and cheap. This will ensure the lasting integrity of America's infrastructure. Once gas prices start to even out and the economy begins to repair itself, you will notice more cash in your pockets.

PROBLEM: So what you're saying is that I should be fine with $8 gas and having to take a bus everywhere (meaning diminished freedom)? No thanks, I'd rather just pay 4 bucks a gallon...
RESPONSE: Well that 4 dollars will inflate to 6 bucks within the next 3 years. However, if we tax gas to 8/gallon, within the decade the diminished reliance on oil will force the price down to about 6 bucks per gallon. The difference is that of those 6 dollars, 2 of them go toward the government improving our infrastructure, and because of the ease of taking a bus or other form of mass transportation, and its relatively inexpensive price, we'll be keeping more money inside the United States and away from foreign oil tycoons. You will be spending less on travel, the same on gas (so your personal freedom won't be limited), and more on the welfare of the country.

PROBLEM: So you honestly think Bush will go for this?
SOLUTION: Bush is almost done, baby.

PROBLEM: So you honestly think McCain will go for this?
SOLUTION: You honestly think McCain will win?

PROBLEM: So you honestly think Barack Obama will go for this?
RESPONSE: No way in hell. Nor will 80 percent of Americans. We're too goddamn stubborn to ever let this fly. Nobody would agree to doubling gas prices! That's the crippling short-sightedness that makes America such a fun place to live. This will never happen... it won't ever happen as long as Americans are unwilling to shift how they live, and have a leader audacious enough to try and persuade the masses. Obama's a crowd-pleaser, not a revolutionary. Though, being a smart guy I think maybe sometime during his 8 years (oh yeah he'll win again... Bush did... so can Obama) he'll suggest it. But I'll be damned if anyone agrees.

PROBLEM: So even if this does end up happening... there's no way it will all come together to work...
SOLUTION: There will be a transition period. It will be a trying time for people, but look at France. A country with staggering gas prices (10/gallon), extremely efficient mass transportation, minute poverty levels, and - historically a reliable indicator of economic state - a flourishing restaurant business.


The economic state of the country, and the steep decline we face if things continue as they are, leave us only strands of hope, which we lazily grasp at from our couches. If only the crippling political apathy and infectious lethargy could be overcome by the people of this country, we could accept this requisite transition into an age where oil must not be relied upon. The whining voices of millions could go from a pompous pout which reeks of entitlement to a mutual, accepting - if begrudging - voice of assurance.

There is no future in how we live today. Our selfishness will only force us from our freedoms.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6827|North Carolina
I understand what you're saying, but for the moment, the main problem is the speculative bubble oil is in.  We need to revise laws on oil trading so that they can't borrow so much when purchasing oil futures.  Once that is changed, oil prices will fall and then stabilize.

Personally, I think that's a much better move than jacking up gas prices for the sake of this tax.  My idea will also allow politicians to get re-elected, since your idea would be political suicide.

I'm not saying your idea is wrong in a principled sense -- it's just not practical in a political one.
Apex
Banned
+5|6333
Gas prices don't just affect driving it also affects every other part of your life. As gas gets more expensive so would food because of the added cost of shipping and producing the food.

Beside that I earned my car I shouldn't be forced to have to take public transit because Ahmed in Iraq hates America.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6868|The Land of Scott Walker
I drive 80 miles a day for my job, djphetal.  Raising gas prices to the level you'd like would double the cost of me going to work.  And if part of that is tax, I'm paying more just to give the stupid politicians more money to play with.  I like Turq's idea better.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,072|7194|PNW

My job requires me to drive up and down the state at great lengths, sometimes over the mountains. Some jobs require a convoy of truck/water trailer and cube van/trailer. As the gas prices raise, so do the costs to our customers. Being wealthy, they generally don't care so much, but some people can't seem to apply this to smaller products that are shipped and mailed all over the country.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6833|'Murka

Gas prices are an immediate burden. Improving mass transit on a scale to be useful is a decades-long process. So, basically, the people would be paying astronomical prices without seeing any benefit. Not sure how the reality of that would sell to the voters.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
SealXo
Member
+309|6958
There isnt orange cranberry at the baegl shop anymore because of gas, and im mad.
liquix
Member
+51|6876|Peoples Republic of Portland
Ok, I like what you have written in terms of optimism. However, your hypothesis that raising gas prices = less dependence on oil is unsound. Given that the vehicle for this change in dependence lies on a government based funding of supposed mass transit overhaul. It would be cheaper to have folks telecommute to work if their jobs permit, why build rails and tunnels all over the nation when most of us have access to the internet already.

Americans are "rich" because everything is cheap as hell here; food, land, etc. We are no more wealthy than Europe, Japan, or Australia when you increase our costs of fuel and food to similar levels.

sucky situation
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6868|The Land of Scott Walker

FEOS wrote:

Gas prices are an immediate burden. Improving mass transit on a scale to be useful is a decades-long process. So, basically, the people would be paying astronomical prices without seeing any benefit. Not sure how the reality of that would sell to the voters.
Precisely why the environmentalist agenda is stupid.  There is no benefit from paying high gas prices while we wait until alternative energy powered vehicles are economical enough for the general public to utilize.  We need to develop alternative energy AND tap into the oil we have available instead of letting foreign countries grab it.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6827|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Gas prices are an immediate burden. Improving mass transit on a scale to be useful is a decades-long process. So, basically, the people would be paying astronomical prices without seeing any benefit. Not sure how the reality of that would sell to the voters.
Precisely why the environmentalist agenda is stupid.  There is no benefit from paying high gas prices while we wait until alternative energy powered vehicles are economical enough for the general public to utilize.  We need to develop alternative energy AND tap into the oil we have available instead of letting foreign countries grab it.
You do realize that not all environmentalists take the carbon tax approach.  Many of the more moderate and economically minded ones support stances more like what you just posted.

There is nothing stupid about caring about the environment -- there are simply certain stupid stances that can be taken.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6868|The Land of Scott Walker
I should have clarified a bit.  There certainly are more moderate environmentalists, but they don't seem to be in the driver's seat of the movement.  The lobbyists that have the ear of the legislature push their agenda with seemingly complete disregard for economic consequences, which annoys me to no end.  I'm all for having the least amount of impact on the environment as realistically possible.  Unfortunately, the politicians are only interested in what will keep them in office instead of true energy policy.
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6758|Oregon
I agree that at this point, my plan is unfeasible and political suicide for anyone who proposed it, but it shouldn't be that way. I agree with you Turquoise, I think that's a more manageable issue, but it does nothing to aid the progression of the country or fix the mountain of debt we have accumulated.

For those of you who drive a long way to work or live in rural areas, a system similar to food stamps could possibly be put in place to lower the price of gas for you.
But some of the attitude reflected here is exactly what I'm talking about. People don't want to pay more even though they'll pay more anyway in a couple years. Shortsighted refusal to pay "unnecessary" taxes on gasoline is one of the main things holding this back. And I understand that, I'm not going to go calling everyone stupid because it makes sense to me to a degree. It would be a massive transition that would require a trying period of acclimation to this new way of life. However, it could be done without disturbing the foundations of America, and I think it should be done.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6827|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

I should have clarified a bit.  There certainly are more moderate environmentalists, but they don't seem to be in the driver's seat of the movement.  The lobbyists that have the ear of the legislature push their agenda with seemingly complete disregard for economic consequences, which annoys me to no end.  I'm all for having the least amount of impact on the environment as realistically possible.  Unfortunately, the politicians are only interested in what will keep them in office instead of true energy policy.
I can agree with that.  Unfortunately, there are certain people who treat environmentalism like a religion.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6868|The Land of Scott Walker
So true.  It think we need to forward these discussions to Washington.  We seem to be able to figure this out, why can't they?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6827|North Carolina

djphetal wrote:

I agree that at this point, my plan is unfeasible and political suicide for anyone who proposed it, but it shouldn't be that way. I agree with you Turquoise, I think that's a more manageable issue, but it does nothing to aid the progression of the country or fix the mountain of debt we have accumulated.

For those of you who drive a long way to work or live in rural areas, a system similar to food stamps could possibly be put in place to lower the price of gas for you.
But some of the attitude reflected here is exactly what I'm talking about. People don't want to pay more even though they'll pay more anyway in a couple years. Shortsighted refusal to pay "unnecessary" taxes on gasoline is one of the main things holding this back. And I understand that, I'm not going to go calling everyone stupid because it makes sense to me to a degree. It would be a massive transition that would require a trying period of acclimation to this new way of life. However, it could be done without disturbing the foundations of America, and I think it should be done.
Well, to be fair, speculation and OPEC are the main determining factors in why oil is so expensive now.  It's not really about peak oil as I'd originally thought.  We need to move away from oil because of environmental factors, not because of any impending oil shortage.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6827|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

So true.  It think we need to forward these discussions to Washington.  We seem to be able to figure this out, why can't they?
Oh, I think they know...  It's just that people like you and me don't have the kind of cash to throw around to get their attention. 
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6891
I heard there was some gas loop-hole that Exxon and a few other companies were exploiting and if it gets closed gas will drop almost a dollar a gallon. Can anyone confirm this?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6827|North Carolina

DoctaStrangelove wrote:

I heard there was some gas loop-hole that Exxon and a few other companies were exploiting and if it gets closed gas will drop almost a dollar a gallon. Can anyone confirm this?
Oil speculators have an Enron loophole where they buy oil futures on margin (by borrowing most of the money for the contract).  Mandating a higher percentage without loans should fix this.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6528|eXtreme to the maX
Us stupid Europeans realised this 30-40 yrs ago.
Europe has expensive fuel and, excellent mass transit systems and housing close to workplaces.
The US needs to rebuild its sprawling cities and create public transport from a very low base.

Good luck guys, but I think you've left it too late.
Fuck Israel
ZombieVampire!
The Gecko
+69|6250
You need to tax your fuel to pay for infrastucture.  It's the fairest way of raising money for roads.

Last edited by ZombieVampire! (2008-06-07 00:22:00)

BVC
Member
+325|7118
Electric vehicles, more telecommuting, better public transport.

Out of curiosity, whats the cost of public transport like in the EU/US?
Deadmonkiefart
Floccinaucinihilipilificator
+177|7128
Raising gas prices to such a level would increase the price of.... Just about everything.  The vehicles that restock our grocery shelves run on oil based fuels, and their deliveries are already becoming less consistent.  Raising the price of gas that much would severely damage the economy.  It would affect everyone.  Not everyone lives in a city, or even a suburban neighborhood.  High gas prices would ruin the lives of anyone who does not live next to a train station.  I do believe that you overestimate the ability and the efficiency of the government.  Even with the tax, I'm not sure that a mass-transit system could be built within 10 years.  During that time, there would be so many disagreements about where to place them, how they should work etc.  It would destroy any last bit of unity we had as a country.  Can you picture what would happen?  Things would virtually shut down.  Parents wouldn't take their children to sports Some people would have to quit their jobs.  Stores would get restocked, like, once a year.....

It's an interesting idea though.  You should do some research and find out how much the government could actually do with the money, how much money they would acquire, and if it would be enough to pay for this.  Talk to some economists about what it would do to the economy.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6645|Escea

Pubic wrote:

Electric vehicles, more telecommuting, better public transport.

Out of curiosity, whats the cost of public transport like in the EU/US?
Super steep here (UK) tha's why no one (or very few) uses it.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6827|North Carolina

ZombieVampire! wrote:

You need to tax your fuel to pay for infrastucture.  It's the fairest way of raising money for roads.
We already do that.  The problem isn't how much we tax, it's where we spend the taxes.  For example, North Carolina spends a lot of money on roads -- partially through revenue gained by gas taxes, but the problem is that much of that money goes to gouging construction companies that give kickbacks to our politicians.

North Carolina is actually a great environment for considering toll roads.  The next time we have a major road construction project, we'd probably be better off getting a private company to do it purely with their own funds and then setting up a toll system.  Tolls can be a pain, but they often save taxpayers a lot of money in the long run.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6827|North Carolina

Pubic wrote:

Electric vehicles, more telecommuting, better public transport.

Out of curiosity, whats the cost of public transport like in the EU/US?
In the U.S., it varies widely.  I have a friend in D.C. who says it isn't that expensive.  I think he commutes by train to work every day (he lives in Arlington, VA).  I'd imagine most areas in the U.S. that depend on public transit systems aren't that expensive in their fares.  The main areas that come to mind are Boston, NYC, Chicago, D.C., and L.A.  All of those areas are very expensive in most other respects though.

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