BF2S Forums 550 metric tons of "yellowcake"

m3thod wrote:

The days of cheap gas is over.

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

What I want to know is when do the Iraqis begin to pay for their own liberation. Shall I be expecting a peace dividend, or perhaps a discount voucher for gasoline?

If you believe in free markets and a free Iraq then you shouldn't get any 'discount vouchers'. Attempting to get discount oil is tantamount to admitting the US went in for oil. In the interests of at least appearing as though that wasn't the reason the US shouldn't touch 'discounts for oil' with a 50ft barge pole. You have an opportunity now to propagate the facade that the Iraq war was really about liberation and benevolence. Don't waste it. Admittedly the facade is a little sullied with the US driving the Iraqis to open 70% of their previously nationalised oil to outside parties.

lowing wrote:

You can't stand the fact that things are improving in Iraq can you Cam??

and yeah, give the lives and money the coalition spent on this war, Iraq should do what it can to ease the burdon and absorb some of it, when they are able. After all the Iraq govt. isn't all that thrilled about the prospects of the coalition leaving just yet.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-07-07 00:30:21)

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

You can't stand the fact that things are improving in Iraq can you Cam??

and yeah, give the lives and money the coalition spent on this war, Iraq should do what it can to ease the burdon and absorb some of it, when they are able. After all the Iraq govt. isn't all that thrilled about the prospects of the coalition leaving just yet.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

Stats are worse than 2004. I feel sorry for the poor Iraqis. You fucked their country up and brought 5 years and counting of untold carnage upon the Iraqi people - they deserve a break. The US don't: the US were the ones who fucked it. The US chose to spend ridiculous amounts of taxpayer money on this silly venture. The US must take personal responsibility for that. The oil in the ground over there belongs to Iraqis.

CameronPoe wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Would seem your source attributes all violent deaths recorded in Iraq to the war. Lazy logic, tbh. They can't seem to be bothered to differentiate between sectarian killings and "traditional" murder...at least they don't explain that differentiation as part of their other explanations.

How exactly can a country take personal responsibility for something? Do you agree with your source that the citizens of the US and UK (how about the other countries involved, btw?) must take individual responsibility for the actions of their governments? Is voting the responsible administrations/parties out of office not enough?

I guess the electorates are culpable in that they elected representatives that in turn elected to go to war unnecessarily. The blame chain has to lead somewhere I guess.

lowing wrote:

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/Couric_Iraq/2007/09/05/30185.html

http://us.yhs.search.yahoo.com/avg/sear … 0in%20iraq


Sorry to disappoint Cam, but even mainstream media is admitting it.......

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/Couric_Iraq/2007/09/05/30185.html

http://us.yhs.search.yahoo.com/avg/sear … 0in%20iraq


Sorry to disappoint Cam, but even mainstream media is admitting it.......

Put in more troops, things improve. Take out troops, things disimprove. Not that difficult to understand.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

LOL.....that killed you to even admit short term improvement didn't it? I swear, I get the impression that you would love nothing more than for the coalition to fail in Iraq.


well does it not stand to reason that things needto improve with us there before it can maintain that improvement after we leave

Killed me? lol. Whether or not the coalition 'fails' or not is irrelevant. At the end of the day a truly sovereign Iraq is what I want to see, free from external influence be it American, Iranian, Saudi or otherwise. The least any nation desreves is self determination and full sovereignty. As to your second point: how come the Iraqis aren't 'personally responsible' enough to look after themselves? How come the US taxpayer is effectively providing for the welfare of Iraq after 5 years? It seems at odds with your normal views that you advocate staying indefinitely. I would imagine that ultimately constant low level of violence will be achieved - that low level violence being almost impossible to eradicate. Not exactly Grade A statecraft.

lowing wrote:

From long ago, I believe this war is a continuation of the war started in '91. Only when Iraq ( for 10 years) failed to adhere to its obligations under the UN mandated and agreed upon resolutions ( peace treaty) did we re-engage.

It is unfortunate that things turned out the way they did after Saddam fell, and arguments can be made for the lack of planning post Saddam, but there was little choice but to stick it out, and rebuild Iraq, regardless of the external forces at work to try and ensure our failure, domestically and abroad. It is now beginning to happen it would appear. After being here last year, and being here now, and listening to the stories, I have grown to respect the efforts of our military has put forth.

Sorry Cam, things are improving in Iraq so says the media that would love to report otherwise.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-07-07 05:42:38)

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

From long ago, I believe this war is a continuation of the war started in '91. Only when Iraq ( for 10 years) failed to adhere to its obligations under the UN mandated and agreed upon resolutions ( peace treaty) did we re-engage.

It is unfortunate that things turned out the way they did after Saddam fell, and arguments can be made for the lack of planning post Saddam, but there was little choice but to stick it out, and rebuild Iraq, regardless of the external forces at work to try and ensure our failure, domestically and abroad. It is now beginning to happen it would appear. After being here last year, and being here now, and listening to the stories, I have grown to respect the efforts of our military has put forth.

Sorry Cam, things are improving in Iraq so says the media that would love to report otherwise.

Are you trying to suggest that the Mehdi Army is not Iraqi? Why shirk the arguments about personal responsibilty, welfare, taxpayers money and accountability? Because it doesn't fit your argument in this situation? The Iraq war was a mistake ( a deliberate one). In order to actually restore full order I would imagine you would need to plough in a few extra tens of thousands of troops. Ultimately when you leave, no matter how peaceful the country may seem, I would wager that that peace won't hold. Terrorists are good at biding their time. The Mehdi Army doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon... You can give a place a fresh lick of paint but at the end of the day the same ills persist. Iraq is better off now that has been since 2005, that's true. But is it really that surprising? The real issue - the real indicator of progress - would be Iraqi and middle eastern popular sentiment towards the west. Has that changed? I think not.

ATG wrote:

What I want to know is when do the Iraqis begin to pay for their own liberation. Shall I be expecting a peace dividend, or perhaps a discount voucher for gasoline?