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Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6832|'Murka

Thoughts on the idea? Keep in mind that Baker worked for Bush I, Christopher for Clinton.

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution


New York Times
July 8, 2008

Put War Powers Back Where They Belong

By James A. Baker III and Warren Christopher

THE most agonizing decision we make as a nation is whether to go to war. Our Constitution ambiguously divides war powers between the president (who is the commander in chief) and Congress (which has the power of the purse and the power to declare war). The founders hoped that the executive and legislative branches would work together, but in practice the two branches don’t always consult. And even when they do, they often dispute their respective powers.

A bipartisan group that we led, the National War Powers Commission, has unanimously concluded after a year of study that the law purporting to govern the decision to engage in war — the 1973 War Powers Resolution — should be replaced by a new law that would, except for emergencies, require the president and Congressional leaders to discuss the matter before going to war. Seventy years of polls show that most Americans expect Congress and the president to talk before making that decision, and in most cases, they have done so.

Congress passed the 1973 resolution in response to the Vietnam War. But it is ineffective at best and unconstitutional at worst. No president has recognized its constitutionality, and Congress has never pressed the issue. Nor has the Supreme Court ever ruled on its constitutionality. In fact, courts have largely shied away from refereeing war-powers disputes between the two political branches.

Most legal experts, however, interpret a 1983 Supreme Court decision on Congress’s authority to overrule the president to mean that parts of the statute are unconstitutional. Its provision saying that Congress may require the president to remove troops from combat merely by passing a concurrent resolution cannot survive the constitutional requirement that a measure must be presented to the president for signature or veto if it is to have the force of law.

The statute has other problems as well: it too narrowly defines the president’s war powers to exclude the power to respond to sudden attacks on Americans abroad; it empowers Congress to terminate an armed conflict by simply doing nothing; and it fails to identify which of the 535 members of Congress the president should consult before going to war.

As a consequence, the 1973 statute has been regularly ignored — a situation that undermines the rule of law, the centerpiece of American democracy.

Many have suggested that the war powers resolution be amended or replaced altogether. But proposals to do so haven’t gotten very far, typically because most have sided too heavily with either the president or Congress.

Our proposed new law, the War Powers Consultation Act of 2009, does not pretend to resolve the underlying constitutional issues — only a constitutional amendment or a Supreme Court decision could do that. It would reserve the ability of both Congress and the president to assert their constitutional war powers. In drawing up the statute we focused on a common theme that almost all past proposals shared: the importance of meaningful consultation between the president and Congress before the nation is committed to war.

Our proposed statute would provide that the president must consult with Congress before ordering a “significant armed conflict” — defined as combat operations that last or are expected to last more than a week. To provide more clarity than the 1973 War Powers Resolution, our statute also defines what types of hostilities would not be considered significant armed conflicts — for example, training exercises, covert operations or missions to protect and rescue Americans abroad. If secrecy or other circumstances precluded prior consultation, then consultation — not just notification — would need to be undertaken within three days.

To guarantee that the president consults with a cross section of Congress, the act would create a joint Congressional committee made up of the leaders of the House and the Senate as well as the chairmen and ranking members of key committees. These are the members of Congress with whom the president would need to personally consult. Almost as important, the act would establish a permanent, bipartisan staff with access to all relevant intelligence and national-security information.

Congress would have obligations, too. Unless it declared war or otherwise expressly authorized a conflict, it would have to vote within 30 days on a resolution of approval. If the resolution of approval was defeated in either House, any member of Congress could propose a resolution of disapproval. Such a resolution would have the force of law, however, only if it were passed by both houses and signed by the president or the president’s veto were overridden. If the resolution of disapproval did not survive the president’s veto, Congress could express its opposition by, for example, using its internal rules to block future spending on the conflict.

We believe our proposal is good for the presidency because it would eliminate a law that every president since Richard Nixon has treated as unconstitutional, while giving the president the political benefit of forcing Congress to take a position on going to war. And it would do so without insisting that the president get the consent of Congress.

The statute is good for Congress because the legislative branch would get a more significant role when the nation decides whether to go to war. Some may argue that Congress should have the dominant role in war powers debates. But it hasn’t played that role under the 1973 resolution. Rather than endorse any absolutist position, our statute would give Congress access to intelligence, a full-time staff for studying national security issues and a well-defined mechanism for consulting and voting on significant armed conflicts.

Finally, the statute is good for the country because it would enhance the prospects for cooperation between Congress and the president. It would ensure that the president received independent advice from Congress, and it would allow the people to hold Congress accountable for its role in the process.

When it comes to war, Americans deserve better than a law that is ineffective and ignored. They deserve a law that will encourage future presidents and Congresses to work together to protect our nation.

James A. Baker III, the secretary of state from 1989 to 1992, and Warren Christopher, the secretary of state from 1993 to 1997, are the co-chairmen of the National War Powers Commission.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina
If I understand this properly, this means that going to war would require holding some sort of Congressional hearing before actually attacking any country.  If that is correct, I would certainly prefer that.
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6912|Northern California
Yep, it should be modified with penalties for abuse (not accounting to congress at specified periods of deployment, etc), or just thrown out and require Congress to declare war before the President can send men and women off to die. 

Hopefully these guys will convince congress to modify it (even though this congress pretends to want to reign it in, who knows what they'll do) appropriately..or do away with it.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85
Very good idea. In today's not so clear-cut world, miles away from the days of WWII and the greatest generation, politicians are tiptoeing around the rules by the labels they place on their actions. This forces more transparency and immediate accountability in both branches, which can be nothing but good for the populace.

What I would also like to see is the Joint Chiefs of Staff also required to be at this consultation. I would like to think that our elected officials truly know what they are getting themselves into when considering war, but I don't believe that is the case.

Dr. Strangelove wrote:

But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought.
edit:

Turquoise wrote:

If I understand this properly, this means that going to war would require holding some sort of Congressional hearing before actually attacking any country.  If that is correct, I would certainly prefer that.
It also said that in the case that secrecy was needed (which I would imagine would be just about all of them) then the President must consult Congress in the following three days. So it does not require a briefing before, but there is a ten-day window around military action. Very reasonable if you ask me.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6866|The Land of Scott Walker
Congress is responsible for voting through the funding for war now, so I don't see much difference.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Isn't it that way now? The only way around it is if there is not enough time to have said hearings?
The War Powers Act requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing troops to military action and forbids troops from remaining for more than 60 days without an authorization of force or a declaration of war.
I was under the impression this only worked for situations like "sneak attacks", or similar circumstance that required quick action.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina
Good points, Flaming...

Stingray24 wrote:

Congress is responsible for voting through the funding for war now, so I don't see much difference.
The key difference here is that the current arrangement allows the president to essentially attack before Congressional approval, which leaves Congress holding the bag when funding comes around.

Think of the political implications involved in ending funding for a war and letting troops suffer as a result.  This is why Congress eventually continued to fund the war even though the majority was probably in favor of withdrawal more recently.

The current system essentially favors entering and prolonging war.  This change would make it harder to enter war in the first place, which is a good thing -- knowing how much power the military industrial complex has...

Last edited by Turquoise (2008-07-08 16:52:44)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Stingray24 wrote:

Congress is responsible for voting through the funding for war now, so I don't see much difference.
After troops are in the field--whether formally authorized by Congress or not--it can appear unpatriotic to call for the abandonment of their mission. Thus, the formal need for Congressional approval is superseded by the political impossibility of Congress's withholding that approval once the President has unilaterally committed troops. Thus, in practice, despite the Framers' best efforts, the dice are loaded against a substantial Congressional role in supervising the conduct of war.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20020306.html
I'd call that a lame response if it wasn't historically accurate. Every time Congress has hinted at cutting off war funding in Iraq we have been told they do not support the troops.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85
Exactly, as we have seen two months is plenty of time to get troops overseas, and two months isn't long enough for a war to become very unpopular. Congress isn't going to vote to cut the funding for a popular war, then as we have seen by the time the war is really unpopular we are too committed to bail out quickly. This forces the two branches to have talks (that I would assume would be public to some degree, in the very least that they are happening) from the get go.
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7189
I think the theory is good. But its too easy for, especially Bush, to steam-roll anyone. He did it with the Patriot act...used fear and scaremongering to get what he wanted.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85

BN wrote:

I think the theory is good. But its too easy for, especially Bush, to steam-roll anyone abuse people blinded by grief and rage. He did it with the Patriot act...used fear a plausible scenario in a post 9/11 world and scaremongering an uninformed populace to get what he wanted.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Using war powers to fight a war against an abstract idea and an unidentifiable victory. If intentional it's brilliant.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85

Kmarion wrote:

Using war powers to fight a war against an abstract idea and an unidentifiable victory. If intentional it's brilliant.
and people call Bush and his cronies idiots
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Using war powers to fight a war against an abstract idea and an unidentifiable victory. If intentional it's brilliant.
and people call Bush and his cronies idiots
Bush isn't too bright.  Cheney is the brains of the operation.  One evil motherfucker to be more precise.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Using war powers to fight a war against an abstract idea and an unidentifiable victory. If intentional it's brilliant.
and people call Bush and his cronies idiots
Bush isn't too bright.  Cheney is the brains of the operation.  One evil motherfucker to be more precise.
Bush was smart enough to get elected, not once, but twice. I don't care what people say or what it looks like on TV, he's smarter than most.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


and people call Bush and his cronies idiots
Bush isn't too bright.  Cheney is the brains of the operation.  One evil motherfucker to be more precise.
Bush was smart enough to get elected, not once, but twice. I don't care what people say or what it looks like on TV, he's smarter than most.
He has a lot of smart people around him.  Apparently, Bush's IQ is good (125, I think), but his wisdom is pretty low.

Karl Rove is a good example of a particularly crafty bastard that has helped Bush in his many exploits.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Bush isn't too bright.  Cheney is the brains of the operation.  One evil motherfucker to be more precise.
Bush was smart enough to get elected, not once, but twice. I don't care what people say or what it looks like on TV, he's smarter than most.
He has a lot of smart people around him.  Apparently, Bush's IQ is good (125, I think), but his wisdom is pretty low.

Karl Rove is a good example of a particularly crafty bastard that has helped Bush in his many exploits.
Al Gore and John Kerry were surrounded by idiots?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6826|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


Bush was smart enough to get elected, not once, but twice. I don't care what people say or what it looks like on TV, he's smarter than most.
He has a lot of smart people around him.  Apparently, Bush's IQ is good (125, I think), but his wisdom is pretty low.

Karl Rove is a good example of a particularly crafty bastard that has helped Bush in his many exploits.
Al Gore and John Kerry were surrounded by idiots?
John Kerry is an idiot when it comes to running an election outside of Massachusetts.   Al Gore was just out there.  I wouldn't say he was an idiot, but choosing Naomi Wolf as a consultant wasn't too bright.

Basically, Al Gore is a better speaker and idealist than he is a leader.  He'd be good to have as a Secretary of the Interior, but V.P. was about as far as I'd want him to be....
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7022|132 and Bush

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

and people call Bush and his cronies idiots
Bush isn't too bright.  Cheney is the brains of the operation.  One evil motherfucker to be more precise.
Bush was smart enough to get elected, not once, but twice. I don't care what people say or what it looks like on TV, he's smarter than most.
It's all that fancy strategery. He might not be a great speaker, but he is not dumb.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6866|The Land of Scott Walker

Turquoise wrote:

... Think of the political implications involved in ending funding for a war and letting troops suffer as a result.  This is why Congress eventually continued to fund the war even though the majority was probably in favor of withdrawal more recently.

The current system essentially favors entering and prolonging war.  This change would make it harder to enter war in the first place, which is a good thing -- knowing how much power the military industrial complex has...
In light of that, why put war powers in the hands of Congress?  They don't even have the balls to cut funding, why do you think they'd do a better job making a decision when the time comes that war is needed?
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85

Stingray24 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

... Think of the political implications involved in ending funding for a war and letting troops suffer as a result.  This is why Congress eventually continued to fund the war even though the majority was probably in favor of withdrawal more recently.

The current system essentially favors entering and prolonging war.  This change would make it harder to enter war in the first place, which is a good thing -- knowing how much power the military industrial complex has...
In light of that, why put war powers in the hands of Congress?  They don't even have the balls to cut funding, why do you think they'd do a better job making a decision when the time comes that war is needed?
Because we don't do martial law?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6866|The Land of Scott Walker
You're assuming the President would institute martial law and Congress never would.  Back to my question ...
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85

Stingray24 wrote:

You're assuming the President would institute martial law and Congress never would.  Back to my question ...
Congress can't enforce martial law by itself, because the President is still the Commander-in-Chief.

I thought I was pretty clear in answering your question. Our government works on a system of checks and balances. Just because the people in one branch don't have the balls to check another branch doesn't mean their power to do so should be removed.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6764|tropical regions of london

Baker wrote:

THE most agonizing decision we make as a nation is whether to go to war.
He lost me right there.  I happen to feel that we as a nation jump at the chance for war.  America is not peace loving.  We are a very warlike culture, not dissimilar to most any other civilization. Not that thats bad, I happen to like that fact.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7128|67.222.138.85

God Save the Queen wrote:

Baker wrote:

THE most agonizing decision we make as a nation is whether to go to war.
He lost me right there.  I happen to feel that we as a nation jump at the chance for war.  America is not peace loving.  We are a very warlike culture, not dissimilar to most any other civilization. Not that thats bad, I happen to like that fact.
It's just PC bullshit that has to be there to be taken seriously. No matter how you feel about war, there shouldn't be any doubt about our intentions for war from the start.

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