Did I tell a short little story? What's my short little story?lowing wrote:
This short little story simply challenges yours.
I think you would grasp this a little better if you went and asked a few homeless people how they ended up in that profession ... most of us are products of our choices, others are products of their lack of abilities and/or a fucked up system that doesn't give a shit about how unpriviliged and mentally ill people end up ...lowing wrote:
Sorry, if the homeless guy is strong enough to STAND outside a store, he is strong enough to SIT in a classroom..........Apparently you believe we are not products of our choices in life. We are all merely lucky and unlucky with no rhyme or reason to any of it...........Well...............I disagree.Varegg wrote:
I think not lowing ... we are disgusted at a system and believes that this is a homeless person because he or she choosed to be homeless ...lowing wrote:
LOL, this is not a topic of NATIONAL Fiscal responsibility.....It is a topic of personl values and beliefs. This short little story simply challenges yours.
None of you would dare say, yeah ask the homeless guy if he wants to EARN 5 bucks, you simply are disgusted and set back that one would even ask. lol
Your story is funny but not unique, these kinds of stories excists for all kinds of religions and political views so it really doesn't sum up anything else than proving there are stereotypes for all kinds of believes ...
Go out and ask a couple of them, get their story ... if you can't be arsed to do that you clearly don't know what you are talking about ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Apparently you believe that someone's success or failure dependy singly upon how hard they try and nothing else, people live and work in a vacuum, unaffected by the surrounding world.lowing wrote:
Sorry, if the homeless guy is strong enough to STAND outside a store, he is strong enough to SIT in a classroom..........Apparently you believe we are not products of our choices in life. We are all merely lucky and unlucky with no rhyme or reason to any of it...........Well...............I disagree.
How hard you try certainly makes a difference, you won't get rich sitting on your ass all day, but there's absolutley no guarantee that working hard will reward you.
Your choices in life are determined primarily by your previous experiences in life, much of which you have little say in. You should read some books about determinism and free will, plus sociology and psychology, you may find many of your preconceptions melting away. You seem not to follow the fact that people are the product of their upbringing, experiences and biology. Three things you have little control over. Your beliefs are refuted by reality.
Remember that the average American works harder, longer and more productively now than 30 years ago, and earns less for all their hard work. Clearly this cannot be their fault, the average American IS working harder, but getting poorer.
I see, so basically you are saying ALL homeless and poverty stricken people are not responsibile for their situations, they arre ALL victims of society. They have nothing to do with, or can influence their successes or failures....EVERYTHING is pure luck and unlucky circumstances.
Boy, quite a generalization ya got going there. I thought those were not allowed in this forum.
Boy, quite a generalization ya got going there. I thought those were not allowed in this forum.
No, we're saying that in all cases homeless people are the result of a combination of the two and in some (IMHO most) cases it leans more heavily away from them and towards factors beyond their control.
So the solution for you is, GIVE them the 5 bucks, instead of HIRE them to EARN the 5 bucks. Regardless as to why they are in this position...Got it.ZombieVampire! wrote:
No, we're saying that in all cases homeless people are the result of a combination of the two and in some (IMHO most) cases it leans more heavily away from them and towards factors beyond their control.
Something about teaching someone to fish comes to mind.
again the difference between liberal and conservative
Where did I say that?
Most of those involved in social welfare programs (who are mostly Liberals) heavily emphasise support and education, rather than simply providing. Most people want to work and be useful.
Most of those involved in social welfare programs (who are mostly Liberals) heavily emphasise support and education, rather than simply providing. Most people want to work and be useful.
Really? So being on welfare for a lifetime is working and being useful?? I really don't need that kinda work or usefulness burdoning my tax dollars thanks anyhow. How long does it take a liberal, who wants help, get an education and a job anyway?ZombieVampire! wrote:
Where did I say that?
Most of those involved in social welfare programs (who are mostly Liberals) heavily emphasise support and education, rather than simply providing. Most people want to work and be useful.
How about Katrina, 4 years later and these people are still looking for free handaouts and housing? I guess I am the only one that thinks there is an explotaiton of the good natured and well meaning system going on....
*cough* BS * cough*
Well perhaps if you assisted them with getting skills and finding jobs they wouldn't.lowing wrote:
Really? So being on welfare for a lifetime is working and being useful?? I really don't need that kinda work or usefulness burdoning my tax dollars thanks anyhow.
That is what I just said.
Actually, places of education tend to be full of Liberals. Liberalising revolutions tend to begin at universities. Often Liberalism is more prevalent in better educated people.lowing wrote:
How long does it take a liberal, who wants help, get an education and a job anyway?
Some people certainly. I highly doubt it's the majority.lowing wrote:
How about Katrina, 4 years later and these people are still looking for free handaouts and housing? I guess I am the only one that thinks there is an explotaiton of the good natured and well meaning system going on....
Yes Lowing each and every single Katrina victim is living on benefits. Certainly in any massive group of people you can find some idiots and slackers. People will seek to exploit every system. When they exploit tax loopholes to stop hundreds of thousands of dollars reaching the government we applaud, If they scam a tiny fraction of that in order to feed their kids, we criticize.lowing wrote:
Really? So being on welfare for a lifetime is working and being useful?? I really don't need that kinda work or usefulness burdoning my tax dollars thanks anyhow. How long does it take a liberal, who wants help, get an education and a job anyway?ZombieVampire! wrote:
Where did I say that?
Most of those involved in social welfare programs (who are mostly Liberals) heavily emphasise support and education, rather than simply providing. Most people want to work and be useful.
How about Katrina, 4 years later and these people are still looking for free handaouts and housing? I guess I am the only one that thinks there is an explotaiton of the good natured and well meaning system going on....
This story is posted in the most intelligent forums like
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=26785902
Lowing, you missed the Junk Drawer.
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=26785902
Lowing, you missed the Junk Drawer.
1. Well gee whiz, that is what I thought my tax dollars were doing.ZombieVampire! wrote:
Well perhaps if you assisted them with getting skills and finding jobs they wouldn't.lowing wrote:
Really? So being on welfare for a lifetime is working and being useful?? I really don't need that kinda work or usefulness burdoning my tax dollars thanks anyhow.
That is what I just said.Actually, places of education tend to be full of Liberals. Liberalising revolutions tend to begin at universities. Often Liberalism is more prevalent in better educated people.lowing wrote:
How long does it take a liberal, who wants help, get an education and a job anyway?Some people certainly. I highly doubt it's the majority.lowing wrote:
How about Katrina, 4 years later and these people are still looking for free handaouts and housing? I guess I am the only one that thinks there is an explotaiton of the good natured and well meaning system going on....
2. Yes in a classroom and on paper and not the real world.......how fitting
3. After 4 fuckin years?!! I have no doubt it ia the majority.....Hell after 4 years they could have gone to college starting from scratch!! 4 years
After 4 years!?? That is exactly what is happening.......EACH and every single Katrina vivtim that is still recieving free housing and allowances IS LIVING ON benefits...........you are 100% correct.PureFodder wrote:
Yes Lowing each and every single Katrina victim is living on benefits. Certainly in any massive group of people you can find some idiots and slackers. People will seek to exploit every system. When they exploit tax loopholes to stop hundreds of thousands of dollars reaching the government we applaud, If they scam a tiny fraction of that in order to feed their kids, we criticize.lowing wrote:
Really? So being on welfare for a lifetime is working and being useful?? I really don't need that kinda work or usefulness burdoning my tax dollars thanks anyhow. How long does it take a liberal, who wants help, get an education and a job anyway?ZombieVampire! wrote:
Where did I say that?
Most of those involved in social welfare programs (who are mostly Liberals) heavily emphasise support and education, rather than simply providing. Most people want to work and be useful.
How about Katrina, 4 years later and these people are still looking for free handaouts and housing? I guess I am the only one that thinks there is an explotaiton of the good natured and well meaning system going on....
Fool.com is an savings and investing website. It's pretty good.PureFodder wrote:
Yes Lowing each and every single Katrina victim is living on benefits. Certainly in any massive group of people you can find some idiots and slackers. People will seek to exploit every system. When they exploit tax loopholes to stop hundreds of thousands of dollars reaching the government we applaud, If they scam a tiny fraction of that in order to feed their kids, we criticize.lowing wrote:
Really? So being on welfare for a lifetime is working and being useful?? I really don't need that kinda work or usefulness burdoning my tax dollars thanks anyhow. How long does it take a liberal, who wants help, get an education and a job anyway?ZombieVampire! wrote:
Where did I say that?
Most of those involved in social welfare programs (who are mostly Liberals) heavily emphasise support and education, rather than simply providing. Most people want to work and be useful.
How about Katrina, 4 years later and these people are still looking for free handaouts and housing? I guess I am the only one that thinks there is an explotaiton of the good natured and well meaning system going on....
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Where did any of us say ALL ?lowing wrote:
I see, so basically you are saying ALL homeless and poverty stricken people are not responsibile for their situations, they arre ALL victims of society. They have nothing to do with, or can influence their successes or failures....EVERYTHING is pure luck and unlucky circumstances.
Boy, quite a generalization ya got going there. I thought those were not allowed in this forum.
Are you really this daft lowing ?
Can't you comprehend the fact that all people are different in some way, that be either religion, political believes, moral, social status, general abilities, mental capability, upbringing, economy, luck, guts ... there are so freakin many factors that comes into play here and that most certainly influence their success or failure ... of course there are lazy people and welfare speculators also into this equation.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
There's nowhere near enough money going into welfare for that to happen.lowing wrote:
1. Well gee whiz, that is what I thought my tax dollars were doing.
Yes, because I said not in the real worldlowing wrote:
2. Yes in a classroom and on paper and not the real world.......how fitting
What I said is that the best educated people tend towards Liberalism. That isn't to say that Liberals only exist in academia
I presume you mean is? Do you have statistics to back that up?lowing wrote:
3. After 4 fuckin years?!! I have no doubt it ia the majority
Lowing only deals in absolutes, a bit like Ricky Bobby..."All or nothing baby, first or last".Varegg wrote:
Where did any of us say ALL ?lowing wrote:
I see, so basically you are saying ALL homeless and poverty stricken people are not responsibile for their situations, they arre ALL victims of society. They have nothing to do with, or can influence their successes or failures....EVERYTHING is pure luck and unlucky circumstances.
Boy, quite a generalization ya got going there. I thought those were not allowed in this forum.
Are you really this daft lowing ?
Can't you comprehend the fact that all people are different in some way, that be either religion, political believes, moral, social status, general abilities, mental capability, upbringing, economy, luck, guts ... there are so freakin many factors that comes into play here and that most certainly influence their success or failure ... of course there are lazy people and welfare speculators also into this equation.
1. Oh well by all means lets tax and PUNISH the achievers even MORE so as to properly accomadate the welfare state.ZombieVampire! wrote:
There's nowhere near enough money going into welfare for that to happen.lowing wrote:
1. Well gee whiz, that is what I thought my tax dollars were doing.Yes, because I said not in the real worldlowing wrote:
2. Yes in a classroom and on paper and not the real world.......how fitting
What I said is that the best educated people tend towards Liberalism. That isn't to say that Liberals only exist in academiaI presume you mean is? Do you have statistics to back that up?lowing wrote:
3. After 4 fuckin years?!! I have no doubt it ia the majority
2. Yeah because they are educated in a CLASSROOM and NOT the REAL world.
3. Don't need a stat. if you were flooded out 4 YEARS AGO then your life, assuming you had one worth a fuck, was intact long before half a decade ran out. People get burned out and flooded ALL the time, it does not take 4 years to rebuild your life. It is however convienient if your intentions are to sponge off of the tax payer.
It does not take 4 years to find a job, it does not take 4 years to move, it does not take 4 years to find a home.......
A lot of jobs require documentation like birth certificates, identification, etc before hiring someone. A lot of homeless people who have absolutely nothing can't get those documents easily because they cost money. The community service program I work at aims to do precisely that: assist people who have job opportunities but can't afford to get the official documents with their own money. We write them checks (funded by donations) that let them get an ID or a birth certificate or police clearance. While some people end up coming back anyway, that's their own personal problem. But a lot of people just need that one extra boost to get their feet planted in a job. Some people have already secured a job, but just need financial aid for transportation (because if I'm not mistaken, waged workers are paid every two weeks). We give them a check for two Metrobus passes that lets them get by for two weeks, enough to get their first paycheck.
The government's tried to address this to some extent. In DC, if you've been let out of a DC jail or you were released from federal prison in DC within the last 6 months you can obtain a DC ID for free. This is because a lot of offenders lose pretty much everything during their time in prison (and most of the ex-cons I've met in my service are actually decent people who were arrested for more petty crimes).
The government's tried to address this to some extent. In DC, if you've been let out of a DC jail or you were released from federal prison in DC within the last 6 months you can obtain a DC ID for free. This is because a lot of offenders lose pretty much everything during their time in prison (and most of the ex-cons I've met in my service are actually decent people who were arrested for more petty crimes).
see Lowing your problem is you view tax as a punishment rather than as a valid contribution towards maintaining society - you know? as you achieve so does your society? You say you support welfare, then ,you call the people who receive it leechs. you're just a typical greedy fucker who doesn't want to contribute to society. You maintain that the only duty you have to make to society is not be a burden. Just because you are lucky enough to be in a position to not be, as far as you're concerned, anyone else who is, fails, because of their own choice - the end. You can't see further than the end of your own nose..
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2008-07-10 09:02:26)
Well not really, I have no problem with welfare as a temporary aid, I do have a probelme with it as a life style. To tax a person harder and MORE of their money is nothing short of punishment for achievement... Tax everyone the same or on what they spend and you will hear no complaints from me.IG-Calibre wrote:
see Lowing your problem is you view tax as a punishment rather than as a valid contribution towards maintaining society - you know? as you achieve so does your society? You say you support welfare, then ,you call the people who receive it leechs. you're just a typical greedy fucker who doesn't want to contribute to society. You maintain that the only duty you have to make to society is not be a burden. Just because you are lucky enough to be in a position to not be, as far as you're concerned, anyone else who is, fails, because of their own choice - the end. You can't see further than the end of your own nose..
Ahhhhhhhh, I see, I am lucky!! I didn't work or EARN anything, I am just lucky..........Now you know my problem with your ideology.
There are no earners or achievers in your world, only lucky and unlucky.....I can not agree with this position.
Believe it or not, I applaude these efforts.........I have always lended support ( althought never gotten acknowledgement for it) for those that try to support themselves.....This program definately does this for those people.HurricaИe wrote:
A lot of jobs require documentation like birth certificates, identification, etc before hiring someone. A lot of homeless people who have absolutely nothing can't get those documents easily because they cost money. The community service program I work at aims to do precisely that: assist people who have job opportunities but can't afford to get the official documents with their own money. We write them checks (funded by donations) that let them get an ID or a birth certificate or police clearance. While some people end up coming back anyway, that's their own personal problem. But a lot of people just need that one extra boost to get their feet planted in a job. Some people have already secured a job, but just need financial aid for transportation (because if I'm not mistaken, waged workers are paid every two weeks). We give them a check for two Metrobus passes that lets them get by for two weeks, enough to get their first paycheck.
The government's tried to address this to some extent. In DC, if you've been let out of a DC jail or you were released from federal prison in DC within the last 6 months you can obtain a DC ID for free. This is because a lot of offenders lose pretty much everything during their time in prison (and most of the ex-cons I've met in my service are actually decent people who were arrested for more petty crimes).
The problem with flat taxes is where do you get the rest of the money from? To keep the same government revenue you have to ramp up taxes on the poor and drop them for the rich. If you just drop taxes for the rich the governement has to cut services and shoots the economy/society in the foot.lowing wrote:
Tax everyone the same or on what they spend and you will hear no complaints from me.IG-Calibre wrote:
see Lowing your problem is you view tax as a punishment rather than as a valid contribution towards maintaining society - you know? as you achieve so does your society? You say you support welfare, then ,you call the people who receive it leechs. you're just a typical greedy fucker who doesn't want to contribute to society. You maintain that the only duty you have to make to society is not be a burden. Just because you are lucky enough to be in a position to not be, as far as you're concerned, anyone else who is, fails, because of their own choice - the end. You can't see further than the end of your own nose..
see fair taxPureFodder wrote:
The problem with flat taxes is where do you get the rest of the money from? To keep the same government revenue you have to ramp up taxes on the poor and drop them for the rich. If you just drop taxes for the rich the governement has to cut services and shoots the economy/society in the foot.lowing wrote:
Tax everyone the same or on what they spend and you will hear no complaints from me.IG-Calibre wrote:
see Lowing your problem is you view tax as a punishment rather than as a valid contribution towards maintaining society - you know? as you achieve so does your society? You say you support welfare, then ,you call the people who receive it leechs. you're just a typical greedy fucker who doesn't want to contribute to society. You maintain that the only duty you have to make to society is not be a burden. Just because you are lucky enough to be in a position to not be, as far as you're concerned, anyone else who is, fails, because of their own choice - the end. You can't see further than the end of your own nose..