So long privacy, hello FISA!

2008-07-10 00:04:19

#1

HurricaИe: Banned; +877|6382|Washington DC

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/35 … 80709.html

WASHINGTON – Today, in a blatant assault upon civil liberties and the right to privacy, the Senate passed an unconstitutional domestic spying bill that violates the Fourth Amendment and eliminates any meaningful role for judicial oversight of government surveillance. The FISA Amendments Act of 2008 was approved by a vote of 69 to 28 and is expected to be signed into law by President Bush shortly. This bill essentially legalizes the president’s unlawful warrantless wiretapping program revealed in December 2005 by the New York Times...

...The bill essentially grants absolute retroactive immunity to telecommunication companies that facilitated the president’s warrantless wiretapping program over the last seven years by ensuring the dismissal of court cases pending against those companies. The test for the companies’ right to immunity is not whether the government certifications they acted on were actually legal – only whether they were issued. Because it is public knowledge that certifications were issued, all of the pending cases will be summarily dismissed. This means Americans may never learn the truth about what the companies and the government did with our private communications.

“With one vote, Congress has strengthened the executive branch, weakened the judiciary and rendered itself irrelevant,” said Caroline Fredrickson, Director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office. “This bill – soon to be law – is a constitutional nightmare. Americans should know that if this legislation is enacted and upheld, what they say on international phone calls or emails is no longer private. The government can listen in without having a specific reason to do so. Our rights as Americans have been curtailed and our privacy can no longer be assumed.”

Sadly, amongst the list of people who supported the bill, Obama was on there.

How the hell did we let this happen? Why?

2008-07-10 00:06:43

#2

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6826|North Carolina

Plutocracy indeed.... Did you know that telecoms collectively spend more on lobbying than any other interest group? Their total spending even dwarfs that of the single largest lobbying body -- the AARP. It's no surprise that they get what they want out of government.

2008-07-10 00:23:47

#3

SenorToenails: Veritas et Scientia; +444|6551|North Tonawanda, NY

Lovely, isn't it? The methods used to keep the companies and government accountable are completely destroyed when the companies and government are in kahutz.

2008-07-10 00:33:41

#4

pyscofrawg: AKA Selkies ftw; +55|6826|Earth

Just one of the many reasons I plan to move to Europe.

Signature

2008-07-10 00:38:36

#5

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6826|North Carolina

pyscofrawg wrote:
Just one of the many reasons I plan to move to Europe.

There are many things to like about Europe (universal healthcare, liberal social views, beautiful women), but beware of the EU. Some of the laws that the EU passes regarding privacy make the Patriot Act look like nothing.

If you want to escape invasive government, you might want to consider Canada instead. They have their problems too, but for the most part, they allow you more privacy than most wealthy nations.

2008-07-10 00:48:57

#6

pyscofrawg: AKA Selkies ftw; +55|6826|Earth

Turquoise wrote:
pyscofrawg wrote:
Just one of the many reasons I plan to move to Europe.
There are many things to like about Europe (universal healthcare, liberal social views, beautiful women), but beware of the EU. Some of the laws that the EU passes regarding privacy make the Patriot Act look like nothing.

If you want to escape invasive government, you might want to consider Canada instead. They have their problems too, but for the most part, they allow you more privacy than most wealthy nations.

It isn't that I want to escape the invasive government, that I can handle. I just don't want to be associated with America. It is the worst, most awful, selfish, greedy, terrible country in the history of the world.

Signature

2008-07-10 01:01:46

#7

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6826|North Carolina

You really need to meet rammunition here. You guys would get along perfectly.

2008-07-10 01:06:04

#8

kylef: Gone; +1,352|6914|N. Ireland

Yes it sounds bad in writing, and in fact it sounds even worse when you read it out loud (try it - I did) but realistically the Government aren't going to look and listen to everyone's emails and phone calls. This effects mainly people like dealers, illegal gun salesmen etc by which their only means of communication is a telephone or a computer.

It's bad, but it's not all bad.

2008-07-10 03:02:54

#9

Mavik: Member; +22|6198|Germany

Just going to copy/paste one of my own posts - only minutes old - in here.
It fits so marvelously what I would answer to the "they are only after the bad guys" attitude.

---

True - if you believe in it - and if the people as a whole believes it long enough, every freedom will be denied by the government that would be necessary to do anything against it.

A (German) satirist once said - concerning the new ID-Card to contain the fingerprints and other data- "In Spain a dictatorship once gathered all the fingerprints of its people - the German government feels more comfortable doing it the other way around."

Noone can say, what kind of government we/they will have in a few years or even decades. Preserving ones freedom is not only about keeping porn available on the internet "today", but being able to rally the people against an injust and illegal government "tomorrow". (Lame example, maybe, but it makes my point.)

2008-07-10 06:21:31

#10

HurricaИe: Banned; +877|6382|Washington DC

kylef wrote:
Yes it sounds bad in writing, and in fact it sounds even worse when you read it out loud (try it - I did) but realistically the Government aren't going to look and listen to everyone's emails and phone calls. This effects mainly people like dealers, illegal gun salesmen etc by which their only means of communication is a telephone or a computer.

It's bad, but it's not all bad.

It's the principle of the matter, the fact that a bill which clearly violates the most sacred document in America gets passed by such a majority.

2008-07-10 06:26:32

#11

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7231|Nårvei

Hooray ... what amendments are left ... only the 2nd ?

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2008-07-10 06:32:49

#12

m3thod: All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz; +2,197|7092|UK

Varegg wrote:
Hooray ... what amendments are left ... only the 2nd ?

and the only way they'll take that away is from my....

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.

2008-07-10 06:34:40

#13

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6711|Éire

Turquoise wrote:
pyscofrawg wrote:
Just one of the many reasons I plan to move to Europe.
There are many things to like about Europe (universal healthcare, liberal social views, beautiful women), but beware of the EU. Some of the laws that the EU passes regarding privacy make the Patriot Act look like nothing.

If you want to escape invasive government, you might want to consider Canada instead. They have their problems too, but for the most part, they allow you more privacy than most wealthy nations.

We are all going down a scary path towards uncharted political territory...Europe is a little behind the US in terms of demolishing constitutions and democracies but believe me we're catching up. The Lisbon treaty fiasco is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't know how it's going to play out to be honest, I mean maybe we just happen to be going through the far-right stage of another global political cycle and it will balance out again in a few years but who knows...maybe the world's leaders are all in on it and are planning for when the shit hits the fan when the food and oil run out?

2008-07-10 06:35:31

#14

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6959|Long Island, New York

Turquoise wrote:
You really need to meet rammunition here. You guys would get along perfectly.

Nah, difference is, he didn't come on here for the sole purpose of trolling Americans.

2008-07-10 06:46:04

#15

JahManRed: wank; +646|7049|IRELAND

Americans. Keep hold of your guns. The day the constitutional right to bear arms against your own government is coming.

As Braddock says. We aren't far behind here in Europe. Hopefully the militias can stop the rot before it gets to us.

2008-07-10 06:50:58

#16

ATG: Banned; +5,233|6950|Global Command

Lemme get this straight;

after 9-11 the U.S. wanted to wiretap people making calls to foreign lands. The telecom companies agreed, and now everybody wants to sue them.

This bill makes it hard for the companies ( doing what the feds tell them to ) to get sued. What the big deal?

They still have to have a warrant as far as I know.

2008-07-10 06:52:02

#17

OrangeHound: Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...; +1,335|7070|Washington DC

HurricaИe wrote:
kylef wrote:
Yes it sounds bad in writing, and in fact it sounds even worse when you read it out loud (try it - I did) but realistically the Government aren't going to look and listen to everyone's emails and phone calls. This effects mainly people like dealers, illegal gun salesmen etc by which their only means of communication is a telephone or a computer.

It's bad, but it's not all bad.
It's the principle of the matter, the fact that a bill which clearly violates the most sacred document in America gets passed by such a majority.

You may be a little confused, since I don't think it is a principle issue or a violation of the Constitution. The US has been monitoring the communications of non-US Citizens (aka intelligence surveillance) since, well, forever. We have used government equipment and government agencies to do this work. However, after 9/11, the Government started using the facilities of US Telecommunication companies to do this surveillance.

"Privacy" in our Constitution clearly applies to US Citizens ... the gray area is whether or not it applies to US companies or activity in US territory. It has never applied to foreign nationals on foreign soil.

This bill, as I understand it, simply provided for the legal use of US Company records to assist the surveillance of foreign nationals who are suspected terrorists.

2008-07-10 06:56:16

#18

Braddock: Agitator; +916|6711|Éire

JahManRed wrote:
Americans. Keep hold of your guns. The day the constitutional right to bear arms against your own government is coming.

As Braddock says. We aren't far behind here in Europe. Hopefully the militias can stop the rot before it gets to us.

I wonder have the Ra got any of those weapons left?

2008-07-10 07:00:04

#19

The_Mac: Member; +96|6646

HurricaИe wrote:
Sadly, amongst the list of people who supported the bill, Obama was on there.

How the hell did we let this happen? Why?

Because Obama is not a messiah. He's a miserable politician who wants to strengthen the government, not unfold it.

Are people such tools that they can't see a man is not what he seems even if he exhudes all the sweetcheeks in the world? This post does a good job in exemplifying that kind of sentiment.

2008-07-10 07:07:35

#20

kylef: Gone; +1,352|6914|N. Ireland

The_Mac wrote:
Because Obama is not a messiah.

You're right, he could be the Antichrist!

2008-07-10 07:10:22

#21

JahManRed: wank; +646|7049|IRELAND

It really comes down to who is a terrorist and who should be monitored and have their private business scrutinized.
There are 755 000 suspected terrorists on the Watch list. The majority American. They say it will be up to 1million next year.

Who is a terrorist? Being labeled a terrorist can ruin your life. Just like going to jail. Alteast you get due process before jail. Not some faceless analyst you never get to see putting an X beside your name labeling you a suspected terrorist.

The bill the OP is related to was passed as a precaution against terrorist entering and operating in the states. But the same legislation can be and is being used against Americans, which is unconstitutional. Especially when you can be labeled a terrorist without a transparent due process.

A terrorist can be an American citizen when someone unaccountable says so. I have long believed that the anti terror laws here in the UK and USA are as much about controlling the citizens of said countries as chasing terrorist.

When they try to take away the right to bear arms and you don't surrender your guns= terrorist.
When you protest against government legislation and/or policies= terrorist
When you refuse to rat on your neighbours= terrorist
and so on.............

2008-07-10 07:13:11

#22

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,072|7193|PNW

JahManRed wrote:
Americans. Keep hold of your guns. The day the constitutional right to bear arms against your own government is coming.

As Braddock says. We aren't far behind here in Europe. Hopefully the militias can stop the rot before it gets to us.

Militias often collect special forces. These, and those who aren't members of the militia, would be the ones federal government would fear. Federal building bombings and assassinations, not bearded men wedged in cabins with their family and R700s.

2008-07-10 07:13:45

#23

Poseidon: Fudgepack DeQueef; +3,253|6959|Long Island, New York

kylef wrote:
The_Mac wrote:
Because Obama is not a messiah.
You're right, he could be the Antichrist!

It's amazing how people (Schittloaf) actually believe that shit.

2008-07-10 07:14:17

#24

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6940|Πάϊ

Turquoise wrote:
pyscofrawg wrote:
Just one of the many reasons I plan to move to Europe.
There are many things to like about Europe (universal healthcare, liberal social views, beautiful women), but beware of the EU. Some of the laws that the EU passes regarding privacy make the Patriot Act look like nothing.

If you want to escape invasive government, you might want to consider Canada instead. They have their problems too, but for the most part, they allow you more privacy than most wealthy nations.

Which laws are you referring to Turq?

psychofrawg, if you're coming, hurry up because we're rapidly turning into the U.S.E.

_ƒ³

2008-07-10 07:22:24

#25

Agent_Dung_Bomb: Member; +302|7157|Salt Lake City

ATG wrote:
Lemme get this straight;

after 9-11 the U.S. wanted to wiretap people making calls to foreign lands. The telecom companies agreed, and now everybody wants to sue them.

This bill makes it hard for the companies ( doing what the feds tell them to ) to get sued. What the big deal?

They still have to have a warrant as far as I know.

They are supposed to, but that doesn't mean they are. That is part of the reason these telecom companies were getting sued. They provided the information by simple request from the FBI without following proper/legal procedure before providing requested information.

Just do a Google search for illegal FBI wiretaps and see just how many hits you get.

BF2S Forums So long privacy, hello FISA!

pyscofrawg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

pyscofrawg wrote:

kylef wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

pyscofrawg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

HurricaИe wrote:

kylef wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

HurricaИe wrote:

The_Mac wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

kylef wrote:

The_Mac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

pyscofrawg wrote:

ATG wrote:

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