Maybe, but I think it would be difficult for them. At the moment they are in a program to update their forces. But Russia is also locked in fighting with Chechnya. Chechnya already recieves a lot of military attention, having Georgia the same could be a pretty big draw on their military.jord wrote:
I'm not talking Nazi Germany steam rolls, I'm talking a long time win. They would drag it out enough for them to mass produce newer weapons and then they'd take over mainland Europe within 10 years. That's my guess anyway.M.O.A.B wrote:
The Russian army is still relying on their older generation T-72's and T-80's, they don't have vast stocks of the newer upgraded T-90 tanks. Their main rifle is still the AK-74, and only small numbers have been given the newer AK-100 series weapons. Nukes I don't see come into this, they weren't going to use them for the 50-60 years when everyone was pointing them at everything. Russia does have well trained soldiers and some decent equipment, but this idea that Russia could steamroller the entire European continent is rather ludicrous.jord wrote:
I think you underestimate it. The bandwagon of "Yeah Russia/China have millions of soldiers but they're shit, their weapons are shit and their equipment is shit" is long gone. They still have enough military and political clout to go to war with small countries like Georgia and not be called on it. Plus they got nukes.
Then it would just be the same as Britain, Germany and Denmark being involved in Iraq/Afghanistan. They'd pull most out and so would we.M.O.A.B wrote:
Maybe, but I think it would be difficult for them. At the moment they are in a program to update their forces. But Russia is also locked in fighting with Chechnya. Chechnya already recieves a lot of military attention, having Georgia the same could be a pretty big draw on their military.jord wrote:
I'm not talking Nazi Germany steam rolls, I'm talking a long time win. They would drag it out enough for them to mass produce newer weapons and then they'd take over mainland Europe within 10 years. That's my guess anyway.M.O.A.B wrote:
The Russian army is still relying on their older generation T-72's and T-80's, they don't have vast stocks of the newer upgraded T-90 tanks. Their main rifle is still the AK-74, and only small numbers have been given the newer AK-100 series weapons. Nukes I don't see come into this, they weren't going to use them for the 50-60 years when everyone was pointing them at everything. Russia does have well trained soldiers and some decent equipment, but this idea that Russia could steamroller the entire European continent is rather ludicrous.
They've got a lot of shit going down in Dagistan(In their country) so I suppose that would also draw their attention.
I understand that but do you honestly expect a US force that is already committed to Iraq and Afghanistan to be able to put up any kind of a fight against a Russian army who are only engaged in limited conflict in the Chechen region...bearing in mind that nukes can't come into play because of mutually assured destruction.M.O.A.B wrote:
I think you overestimate Russia's military a little. Russia has a large force yes, but it is still deprived in the sense of a superpower military. Their equipment is generally older and they don't have enough of their new tech to cover everything. Their military is not expected to return to something like their Cold War days until about 2020.Braddock wrote:
The US WILL NOT engage Russia in open warfare, they simply can't go down that road, it would be apocalyptical.Ryan wrote:
Before we know it, the US is going to decide to stick their nose in this new war and send troops into there. Why not just let them fight it out on their own?
And furthermore, I think you may have to put that missile shield system on hold for a while!
You're underestimating your own countries. bout 60 years ago germany was militarily the most powerful nation on earth. Besides, our forces are probably trained and equipped way better than the russians. We'll easily hold our own against them, especially in unity.jord wrote:
Why, the the rest of the EU is barely capable of anything military against Russia. The EU fails when the more powerful nations do something.
French and Germany and even Britain would hardly stand a chance. And if we did we'd all be ruined financially for 100 years.
And that's especially why the EU would be a good idea if properly executed, bring european nations closer togheter and you'll get a very powerful 'nation'.
inane little opines
Watch a film called "9th company", it shows Russian training.dayarath wrote:
You're underestimating your own countries. bout 60 years ago germany was militarily the most powerful nation on earth. Besides, our forces are probably trained and equipped way better than the russians. We'll easily hold our own against them, especially in unity.jord wrote:
Why, the the rest of the EU is barely capable of anything military against Russia. The EU fails when the more powerful nations do something.
French and Germany and even Britain would hardly stand a chance. And if we did we'd all be ruined financially for 100 years.
And that's especially why the EU would be a good idea if properly executed, bring european nations closer togheter and you'll get a very powerful 'nation'.
I know the US wouldn't be able to take them on alone for a sustained fight with commitments still in Iraq and Afghanistan. But a joint US/EU force, NATO in other words, would be easily be able to match them. Remember that this would be an actual conventional war, not a guerrilla war.Braddock wrote:
I understand that but do you honestly expect a US force that is already committed to Iraq and Afghanistan to be able to put up any kind of a fight against a Russian army who are only engaged in limited conflict in the Chechen region...bearing in mind that nukes can't come into play because of mutually assured destruction.M.O.A.B wrote:
I think you overestimate Russia's military a little. Russia has a large force yes, but it is still deprived in the sense of a superpower military. Their equipment is generally older and they don't have enough of their new tech to cover everything. Their military is not expected to return to something like their Cold War days until about 2020.Braddock wrote:
The US WILL NOT engage Russia in open warfare, they simply can't go down that road, it would be apocalyptical.
And furthermore, I think you may have to put that missile shield system on hold for a while!
I don't want to be part of a big war mongering European 'United States' to be honest. While European nations might not stand much of a chance of beating someone like Russia in a front foot attack it could be argued that the Russians wouldn't stand a chance of ever conquering and occupying us, we would put up too much of a fight and would not be worth the hassle in the long run and I am happy enough with that.dayarath wrote:
You're underestimating your own countries. bout 60 years ago germany was militarily the most powerful nation on earth. Besides, our forces are probably trained and equipped way better than the russians. We'll easily hold our own against them, especially in unity.jord wrote:
Why, the the rest of the EU is barely capable of anything military against Russia. The EU fails when the more powerful nations do something.
French and Germany and even Britain would hardly stand a chance. And if we did we'd all be ruined financially for 100 years.
And that's especially why the EU would be a good idea if properly executed, bring european nations closer togheter and you'll get a very powerful 'nation'.
I know their training and I don't need a film to see it. Europe will be able to stand up against just about anyone when this entire continent is under threat.jord wrote:
Watch a film called "9th company", it shows Russian training.
I'm not war mongering, with powerful I didn't only mean militarily. I think that we'd be more stable economically and that everyone would benefit from a union like that.Braddock wrote:
I don't want to be part of a big war mongering European 'United States' to be honest. While European nations might not stand much of a chance of beating someone like Russia in a front foot attack it could be argued that the Russians wouldn't stand a chance of ever conquering and occupying us, we would put up too much of a fight and would not be worth the hassle in the long run and I am happy enough with that.
Right now I hate the EU but I oh-so-hope people go in there that know whatever the fuck they're doing and it'll show to be worth our time and money.
Let's say people were crazy enough to engage the russians with force now they'd need a draft.Braddock wrote:
I understand that but do you honestly expect a US force that is already committed to Iraq and Afghanistan to be able to put up any kind of a fight against a Russian army who are only engaged in limited conflict in the Chechen region...bearing in mind that nukes can't come into play because of mutually assured destruction.
Last edited by dayarath (2008-08-09 09:17:51)
inane little opines
The Russians are as tough as old boots...jord wrote:
Watch a film called "9th company", it shows Russian training.
That would not happen.jord wrote:
I'm not talking Nazi Germany steam rolls, I'm talking a long time win. They would drag it out enough for them to mass produce newer weapons and then they'd take over mainland Europe within 10 years. That's my guess anyway.M.O.A.B wrote:
The Russian army is still relying on their older generation T-72's and T-80's, they don't have vast stocks of the newer upgraded T-90 tanks. Their main rifle is still the AK-74, and only small numbers have been given the newer AK-100 series weapons. Nukes I don't see come into this, they weren't going to use them for the 50-60 years when everyone was pointing them at everything. Russia does have well trained soldiers and some decent equipment, but this idea that Russia could steamroller the entire European continent is rather ludicrous.jord wrote:
I think you underestimate it. The bandwagon of "Yeah Russia/China have millions of soldiers but they're shit, their weapons are shit and their equipment is shit" is long gone. They still have enough military and political clout to go to war with small countries like Georgia and not be called on it. Plus they got nukes.
Who would really fight against Europe/USA? No-one, EU/USA has so much money, equipment and technology we could just sit at computers and win. Everyone knows in a real war, not any of this Iraq stuff, there is only one winner.
even if we did go to war, it would drag out and cost millions of lives and Billions in cash. All for the sake of protecting Georgia, the underdog. Tough decision but I know I wouldn't risk 100 years of shit for my country just to bail out a country that doesn't really offer anything.dayarath wrote:
I know their training and I don't need a film to see it. Europe will be able to stand up against just about anyone when this entire continent is under threat.jord wrote:
Watch a film called "9th company", it shows Russian training.I'm not war mongering, with powerful I didn't only mean militarily. I think that we'd be more stable economically and that everyone would benefit with a union like that.Braddock wrote:
I don't want to be part of a big war mongering European 'United States' to be honest. While European nations might not stand much of a chance of beating someone like Russia in a front foot attack it could be argued that the Russians wouldn't stand a chance of ever conquering and occupying us, we would put up too much of a fight and would not be worth the hassle in the long run and I am happy enough with that.
Right now I hate the EU but I oh-so-hope people go in there that know whatever the fuck they're doing and it'll show to be worth our time and money.
We'd just nuke Moscow
Russia has the power to destroy the UK, but we also have the power to destroy Russia just as bad. And that's just the UK on its own.
Russia has the power to destroy the UK, but we also have the power to destroy Russia just as bad. And that's just the UK on its own.
Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-08-09 09:21:00)
I believe it would better to deny them the oppurtunity to attempt it if they did and I wouldn't call it war mongering either. You can't really just abadon countries and let them be attack because the Russian's wouldn't be able to occupy them in the long run.Braddock wrote:
I don't want to be part of a big war mongering European 'United States' to be honest. While European nations might not stand much of a chance of beating someone like Russia in a front foot attack it could be argued that the Russians wouldn't stand a chance of ever conquering and occupying us, we would put up too much of a fight and would not be worth the hassle in the long run and I am happy enough with that.dayarath wrote:
You're underestimating your own countries. bout 60 years ago germany was militarily the most powerful nation on earth. Besides, our forces are probably trained and equipped way better than the russians. We'll easily hold our own against them, especially in unity.jord wrote:
Why, the the rest of the EU is barely capable of anything military against Russia. The EU fails when the more powerful nations do something.
French and Germany and even Britain would hardly stand a chance. And if we did we'd all be ruined financially for 100 years.
And that's especially why the EU would be a good idea if properly executed, bring european nations closer togheter and you'll get a very powerful 'nation'.
Agreed. We've had too much shit in the past to sit back and take any more. Europe is an old continent and has a long history of conflict, war and bloodshed, it is in our blood. Even if we were to be pounded in any initial air-based attacks God help anyone who tries to occupy any part of Europe with ground troops.dayarath wrote:
Europe will be able to stand up against just about anyone when this entire continent is under threat.
I'm not saying we should but that if we did, we damn well could. The russians would be alot worse off than us in that matter.jord wrote:
even if we did go to war, it would drag out and cost millions of lives and Billions in cash. All for the sake of protecting Georgia, the underdog. Tough decision but I know I wouldn't risk 100 years of shit for my country just to bail out a country that doesn't really offer anything.
I wouldn't want to either and I hope that it won't have to come to that.
Last edited by dayarath (2008-08-09 09:22:17)
inane little opines
They should just form the Georgian Foreign Legion like I said in another thread. Then anyone who feels strongly about it can go fight for them, and other countries won't get dragged in.dayarath wrote:
I'm not saying we should but that if we did, we damn well could. The russians would be alot worse off than us in that matter.jord wrote:
even if we did go to war, it would drag out and cost millions of lives and Billions in cash. All for the sake of protecting Georgia, the underdog. Tough decision but I know I wouldn't risk 100 years of shit for my country just to bail out a country that doesn't really offer anything.
I wouldn't want to either and I hope that it won't have to come to that.
Who feels sorry for them?jord wrote:
They should just form the Georgian Foreign Legion like I said in another thread. Then anyone who feels strongly about it can go fight for them, and other countries won't get dragged in.dayarath wrote:
I'm not saying we should but that if we did, we damn well could. The russians would be alot worse off than us in that matter.jord wrote:
even if we did go to war, it would drag out and cost millions of lives and Billions in cash. All for the sake of protecting Georgia, the underdog. Tough decision but I know I wouldn't risk 100 years of shit for my country just to bail out a country that doesn't really offer anything.
I wouldn't want to either and I hope that it won't have to come to that.
They started it, declared war, "shot down" jets and killed civilians.
Could be done but hell, you can't just forsake your allies.jord wrote:
They should just form the Georgian Foreign Legion like I said in another thread. Then anyone who feels strongly about it can go fight for them, and other countries won't get dragged in.
stupid russians...
I seriously hope noone (powerful) is stupid enough to declare war on this entire continent or that will be a true shitstorm of unseen proportions.Braddock wrote:
Agreed. We've had too much shit in the past to sit back and take any more. Europe is an old continent and has a long history of conflict, war and bloodshed, it is in our blood. Even if we were to be pounded in any initial air-based attacks God help anyone who tries to occupy any part of Europe with ground troops.
Last edited by dayarath (2008-08-09 09:28:45)
inane little opines
Nobody stood up for Iraq when America sent the troops in, we all sat back with out thumbs up our asses and some of us even chipped in. What Russia is doing now is no different to what the US done in Iraq or Afghanistan (in their mind), didn't Russia say they were sending in the military to protect citizens and fight the terrorist attacks and genocide being perpetrated against them? Hmmmm that rhetoric sounds familiar.M.O.A.B wrote:
I believe it would better to deny them the oppurtunity to attempt it if they did and I wouldn't call it war mongering either. You can't really just abadon countries and let them be attack because the Russian's wouldn't be able to occupy them in the long run.Braddock wrote:
I don't want to be part of a big war mongering European 'United States' to be honest. While European nations might not stand much of a chance of beating someone like Russia in a front foot attack it could be argued that the Russians wouldn't stand a chance of ever conquering and occupying us, we would put up too much of a fight and would not be worth the hassle in the long run and I am happy enough with that.dayarath wrote:
You're underestimating your own countries. bout 60 years ago germany was militarily the most powerful nation on earth. Besides, our forces are probably trained and equipped way better than the russians. We'll easily hold our own against them, especially in unity.
And that's especially why the EU would be a good idea if properly executed, bring european nations closer togheter and you'll get a very powerful 'nation'.
They're standing up to a well hated a much more powerful nation. I bet they would rake in the numbers from Europe and America for people looking to take a shot at the Russkies.SEREVENT wrote:
Who feels sorry for them?jord wrote:
They should just form the Georgian Foreign Legion like I said in another thread. Then anyone who feels strongly about it can go fight for them, and other countries won't get dragged in.dayarath wrote:
I'm not saying we should but that if we did, we damn well could. The russians would be alot worse off than us in that matter.
I wouldn't want to either and I hope that it won't have to come to that.
They started it, declared war, "shot down" jets and killed civilians.
I didn't say to attack them because of Georgia. I'm saying that if they attempted to make any further attack into Europe, that taking them on there and then would be better than simply leaving some countries to be overrun with the shaky knowledge that Russia would give up occupying them.Braddock wrote:
Nobody stood up for Iraq when America sent the troops in, we all sat back with out thumbs up our asses and some of us even chipped in. What Russia is doing now is no different to what the US done in Iraq or Afghanistan (in their mind), didn't Russia say they were sending in the military to protect citizens and fight the terrorist attacks and genocide being perpetrated against them? Hmmmm that rhetoric sounds familiar.M.O.A.B wrote:
I believe it would better to deny them the oppurtunity to attempt it if they did and I wouldn't call it war mongering either. You can't really just abadon countries and let them be attack because the Russian's wouldn't be able to occupy them in the long run.Braddock wrote:
I don't want to be part of a big war mongering European 'United States' to be honest. While European nations might not stand much of a chance of beating someone like Russia in a front foot attack it could be argued that the Russians wouldn't stand a chance of ever conquering and occupying us, we would put up too much of a fight and would not be worth the hassle in the long run and I am happy enough with that.
Why is Russia "well hated"?jord wrote:
They're standing up to a well hated a much more powerful nation. I bet they would rake in the numbers from Europe and America for people looking to take a shot at the Russkies.SEREVENT wrote:
Who feels sorry for them?jord wrote:
They should just form the Georgian Foreign Legion like I said in another thread. Then anyone who feels strongly about it can go fight for them, and other countries won't get dragged in.
They started it, declared war, "shot down" jets and killed civilians.
I wouldn't sign up to any fight that was not my own. I support many causes around the world but on a philosophical level I would only ever kill another human in the name of defending my own family, friends or country. This is also not a clean cut 'good vs. evil' war we have here either, there are 3 parties at play: Georgia, Ossetia and Russia and who knows what the hell is actually going here at the political level.jord wrote:
They're standing up to a well hated a much more powerful nation. I bet they would rake in the numbers from Europe and America for people looking to take a shot at the Russkies.SEREVENT wrote:
Who feels sorry for them?jord wrote:
They should just form the Georgian Foreign Legion like I said in another thread. Then anyone who feels strongly about it can go fight for them, and other countries won't get dragged in.
They started it, declared war, "shot down" jets and killed civilians.
I think if Russia attempted any kind of further incursion into Europe the missiles would be aimed and warnings would be given.M.O.A.B wrote:
I didn't say to attack them because of Georgia. I'm saying that if they attempted to make any further attack into Europe, that taking them on there and then would be better than simply leaving some countries to be overrun with the shaky knowledge that Russia would give up occupying them.Braddock wrote:
Nobody stood up for Iraq when America sent the troops in, we all sat back with out thumbs up our asses and some of us even chipped in. What Russia is doing now is no different to what the US done in Iraq or Afghanistan (in their mind), didn't Russia say they were sending in the military to protect citizens and fight the terrorist attacks and genocide being perpetrated against them? Hmmmm that rhetoric sounds familiar.M.O.A.B wrote:
I believe it would better to deny them the oppurtunity to attempt it if they did and I wouldn't call it war mongering either. You can't really just abadon countries and let them be attack because the Russian's wouldn't be able to occupy them in the long run.
Cold war, plus they like to fly long range Bombers close to UK airspace to show how awesome they still are.SEREVENT wrote:
Why is Russia "well hated"?jord wrote:
They're standing up to a well hated a much more powerful nation. I bet they would rake in the numbers from Europe and America for people looking to take a shot at the Russkies.SEREVENT wrote:
Who feels sorry for them?
They started it, declared war, "shot down" jets and killed civilians.
Think of reasons why people dislike the US and they all apply to Russia and then some.