Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

The received wisdom on the Caucasus war casts Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili as either villain or dupe, foolishly provoking a staged response from Russia by firing on civilians in Tshkanvili.  Michael Totten, now reporting from the ground at Pajamas Media, says that this anaylsis is completely wrong.  In fact, South Ossetian separatists broke the cease-fire by firing on Georgian soldiers, and Russia mobilized its forces before Saakashvili’s targeted assault on separatists in the Tshkanvili area:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2 … bout-1.php
Virtually everyone believes Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili foolishly provoked a Russian invasion on August 7, 2008, when he sent troops into the breakaway district of South Ossetia. “The warfare began Aug. 7 when Georgia launched a barrage targeting South Ossetia,” the Associated Press reported over the weekend in typical fashion.

    Virtually everyone is wrong. Georgia didn’t start it on August 7, nor on any other date. The South Ossetian militia started it on August 6 when its fighters fired on Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian villages with weapons banned by the agreement hammered out between the two sides in 1994. At the same time, the Russian military sent its invasion force bearing down on Georgia from the north side of the Caucasus Mountains on the Russian side of the border through the Roki tunnel and into Georgia. This happened before Saakashvili sent additional troops to South Ossetia and allegedly started the war.
The real story of this conflict begins decades ago, during the Soviet period of Russian empire.  The Kremlin used ethnic rivalries to keep its disparate populations at war with each other rather than Moscow.  The Soviets then set themselves in position to act as mediators, when in fact they fanned the ethnic rivalries for their own purposes of division.

This doesn’t mean that Georgia doesn’t have some responsibility for this conflict.  As two regional experts explained to Totten, Georgia had its own brand of ethnic nationalists who threw fuel onto this fire after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.  Eventually, conflicts would drive milder forms of ethnic cleansing than seen in the former Yugoslavia, but destabilizing nonetheless.  When Saakashvili came to power in the Rose Revolution, he inherited a nation already riven by ethnic conflict and two territories with reason to view Georgian sovereignty with suspicion.  Despite his efforts to woo Abkhazians and Ossetians back into the Georgian union, too many hard feelings remain — and Russia began to play the old games that the Soviets abandoned during their collapse.

How did the Russians provoke this latest conflict?  In April, they began issuing Russian passports to residents of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.  This gave them a legal status as Russian citizens, and gave Moscow a pretense for protecting them with military force.  It resembles nothing more than Hitler’s efforts in the Sudetenland in 1938, which ended in the collapse in Munich of the West.  With this kind of backing, the separatists felt free to launch attacks on Georgian forces, and as early as May Saakashvili warned that Russia wanted a war in the Caucasus.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08182008/ne … 124993.htm
OVER the weekend, photographic proof emerged that the Russians used murderous Chechen mercenaries to do their dirtiest dirty work in Georgia: The ragtag unit in question is so vicious that, last April, Chechnya's Russian-installed "president" demanded it be disbanded.
Be sure to read all of Michael’s excellent report.  While all sides have historical responsibility for fanning ethnic conflict, the methods and motives of Vladimir Putin and his henchmen are quite transparent.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6419|...
knew everything except the first paragraph in your post, that's surprising. I didn't know they had a ceasefire going, I did know he fired back at the seperatists after they fired some rounds.

very interesting indeed, this completely turns around Russia's decision, if only more people got to know it.
inane little opines
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7041|London, England
Hmm. I guess they realised that they were going nowhere with their independence claim and wanted to do something about it. These guys voted for Independence during the breakup of the USSR but Georgia didn't allow it back then either, so that's why the first war started. Not to mention the fact that the Georgians were oppressing them (if they were treated as fine members of the Georgian state, I doubt they'd feel so inclined to push for independence)

There's not much you can do to stop the independence of a country. As long as the majority of people want independence, it will eventually happen. Especially if you have some big countries backing your independence. As was the case for Kosovo and now as is the case for Abkhazia/South Ossetia.

I say just give the people independence if they want. That's my opinion.

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-08-26 11:11:07)

usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7181

i knew it.  gj russia defenders.  please speak up now thank you.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7041|London, England
The region would be better off with all the separatist countries independent. Like Yugoslavia, you're going to get some wars but once it's all ironed out and all the people get their own little pieces of land then it'll quiet down for abit. It's their fault they can't get along with each other.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7181

come on defenders.  eat your plate of crow.  we are waiting??????????  uzique, rammunition, braddock, cam, etc.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7041|London, England
God damn, just how many breakaway regions are there. Talk about Balkanisation on a huge scale. They really must have taken over alot of small little countries back in the days of the pre-USSR Russian Empire, and now they all want to be independent.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6419|...

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

God damn, just how many breakaway regions are there. Talk about Balkanisation on a huge scale. They really must have taken over alot of small little countries back in the days of the pre-USSR Russian Empire, and now they all want to be independent.
without the resources to actually support themselves, the independance mania will drive them to poverty.

those chechens should revolt again let's see what happens.

Last edited by dayarath (2008-08-26 11:28:37)

inane little opines
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7041|London, England
Yeah, if you look at all the big countries around the world. You'd see they're actually made up of alot of different tribes/races/ethnic groups etc.., even the Western European nations. The key thing was that they were able to get over all those petty differences and create a unified nation that ended up becoming a strong state. With the USA being a good modern example of that.
Roc18
`
+655|6210|PROLLLY PROLLLY PROLLLY
I wanna hear what McCain has to say about this.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6907|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
Its the Soviet Union under a different flag

Kinda like a line from the Who: "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7041|London, England
Not really the USSR. I don't see how Russia supporting all these independence groups equates to the expansionist policies of the Tsardom. It's quite the reverse...

Everyone tries to say that Russia is trying to take over the world, who are you trying to scare here? If we're not going to be scared by those stupid Muslims what makes you think we'll be scared by you?
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7041|London, England
Also this article is the word of one man named Micheal Totten against the word of everyone else. Sounds like a Conspiracy theory to me.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6907|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Not really the USSR. I don't see how Russia supporting all these independence groups equates to the expansionist policies of the Tsardom. It's quite the reverse...

Everyone tries to say that Russia is trying to take over the world, who are you trying to scare here? If we're not going to be scared by those stupid Muslims what makes you think we'll be scared by you?
I don't think they are trying for the world, I think its left over hardliners that ran Ole Mother Russia trying to regain glory days.

It's kinda like what they did in Czechoslovakia in the 1950's.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7069

Roc18 wrote:

I wanna hear what McCain has to say about this.
He'll probably talk about how the US does not condone Germany's actions...
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7041|London, England
It's classic Cold War scaremongering. I mean shit, who was the bright man who thought that the USSR would invade West Germany/Western Europe (breach the Iron Curtain etc..) back then anyway? How much shit did they cause through these lies.

Did they ever say they were going to do that? Or threaten to invade on numerous occasions?

And I've asked this before, I wonder if the people in the USSR had the same feelings about the West/USA. I wonder if their leaders used scare tactics on their population warning of a US invasion or something.

Seriously, some people....

You know there's a word for people who try to control others through fear.

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-08-26 12:25:30)

SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6907|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

Also this article is the word of one man named Micheal Totten against the word of everyone else. Sounds like a Conspiracy theory to me.
But what is any journalism these days?

You give me the stories, and I'll give you the war! William R. Hearst
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6419|...

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

It's classic Cold War scaremongering. I mean shit, who was the bright man who thought that the USSR would invade West Germany/Western Europe (breach the Iron Curtain etc..) back then anyway? How much shit did they cause through these lies.

Did they ever say they were going to do that? Or threaten to invade on numerous occasions?

And I've asked this before, I wonder if the people in the USSR had the same feelings about the West/USA. I wonder if their leaders used scare tactics on their population warning of a US invasion or something.

Seriously, some people....

You know there's a word for people who try to control others through fear.
atleast the russians don't want the world to blow itself up like some certain terrorists.

I don't think/hope anyone is stupid enough to launch a full scale attack on Russia, or the other way around against a powerful foe.
inane little opines
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6807

Mek-Stizzle wrote:

It's classic Cold War scaremongering. I mean shit, who was the bright man who thought that the USSR would invade West Germany/Western Europe (breach the Iron Curtain etc..) back then anyway? How much shit did they cause through these lies.

Did they ever say they were going to do that? Or threaten to invade on numerous occasions?

And I've asked this before, I wonder if the people in the USSR had the same feelings about the West/USA. I wonder if their leaders used scare tactics on their population warning of a US invasion or something.

Seriously, some people....

You know there's a word for people who try to control others through fear.
Oh common, the Berlin airlift ring a bell? Don't tell me Stalin didn't drool of the idea of Europe in the Soviet Union. That said, by the 80's, the Soviets had Project RYAN running, they thought NATO was gonna launch an assault on them.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6763|tropical regions of london
I hope you all get nukes dropped on you
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

usmarine wrote:

i knew it.  gj russia defenders.  please speak up now thank you.
I've always said the Russians are as bad as all the other usual suspects on the world stage. There are no angels in this conflict, while Kmarion's OP builds a strong case indicting Russia's machinations it does not absolve Georgia of any blame in holding on, often violently, to a region that seems to have little or no desire to be ruled from Tblisi.

All the footage on the news today, on all channels, showed nothing but celebrations in the streets of Ossetia and Abkhazia. The only protests were in Georgian territories outside of these zones. There is no ostensible difference between this situation and the Kosovo situation when the West were falling over themselves to recognise Kosovan statehood...actually their is one difference - unlike Kosovo, Ossetia and Abhkazia were not plantations.
God Save the Queen
Banned
+628|6763|tropical regions of london
they showed lots of celebrations with the fall of baghdad too.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7020|132 and Bush

Braddock wrote:

There are no angels in this conflict, while Kmarion's OP builds a strong case indicting Russia's machinations it does not absolve Georgia of any blame in holding on, often violently, to a region that seems to have little or no desire to be ruled from Tblisi.
That was not my intent. Of course Georgia has some responsibility.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6907|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Braddock wrote:

usmarine wrote:

i knew it.  gj russia defenders.  please speak up now thank you.
I've always said the Russians are as bad as all the other usual suspects on the world stage. There are no angels in this conflict, while Kmarion's OP builds a strong case indicting Russia's machinations it does not absolve Georgia of any blame in holding on, often violently, to a region that seems to have little or no desire to be ruled from Tblisi.

All the footage on the news today, on all channels, showed nothing but celebrations in the streets of Ossetia and Abkhazia. The only protests were in Georgian territories outside of these zones. There is no ostensible difference between this situation and the Kosovo situation when the West were falling over themselves to recognise Kosovan statehood...actually their is one difference - unlike Kosovo, Ossetia and Abhkazia were not plantations.
Well the whole situation was caused by Russia. Kosovo, who do you think forced all those countries to form?

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