Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire
Israelis Guilty Of Hebron Killing

"An Israeli court has convicted two border guards over the unlawful killing of a Palestinian teenager in the West Bank town of Hebron in 2002. Imran Abu Hamdieh died after the two men, Shahar Botbeka and Denis Alhazov, pushed him from the back of a military vehicle travelling at 50mph. Earlier this year, another member of their unit was jailed for six and a half years, but he fled the country. A fourth officer was jailed for four and a half years in a plea bargain.

Mr Abu Hamdieh was seized from outside his home in Hebron on 30 December 2002. He suffered serious head injuries when members of the border police unit - celebrating the end of their posting in Hebron - made him jump from their jeep as it sped through the streets. In Israeli law, the offence the policeman was convicted of, which translates from Hebrew as "killing", is usually used to denote cases where the death was not premeditated, in contrast to murder. Botbek and Alhazov are due to be sentenced in December.

Court documents described their actions as a rampage of cruel abuse. They grabbed several Palestinians off the street and drove them to remote locations to beat them. Imran Abu Hamdieh was picked up late in the evening. The border policemen beat him inside the vehicle and then opened the back door and ordered him to jump out, but he refused. As the jeep reached 70-80km an hour, the policemen managed to prise his grip loose, and pushed him out of the vehicle and it sped off. The Israeli army was unable to provide figures, but the main Israeli human rights group said it had no record of a soldier or policeman being convicted for the killing of a Palestinian."


These scum should never see the light of the day again. At least the Israeli authorities have delivered justice this time... I commend them for that.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7126|67.222.138.85
Breaking news: Person makes poor decision, punished by government. More at 9 after more news on Bristol Palin's pregnancy.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Breaking news: Person makes poor decision, punished by government. More at 9 after more news on Bristol Palin's pregnancy.
Poor Decision? Lol... try 'fucking poor decision', they decided to abduct someone and throw them out the back of a speeding vehicle.

I like the way sectarian violence from Palestinians evokes rage and disgust but sectarian violence from Israelis is just run of the mill news.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-09-02 15:50:52)

Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7126|67.222.138.85

Braddock wrote:

I like the way sectarian violence from Palestinians evokes rage and disgust but sectarian violence from Israelis is just run of the mill news.
By that logic we expect more from the Palestinian than the Israelis. You are claiming a Palestinian bias in the news, contrary to what I believe is your opinion.

Isolated incidents are irrelevant. If he got away with it and there was a proven track record of people getting away with it, then maybe it would be worthy of discussion.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Braddock wrote:

I like the way sectarian violence from Palestinians evokes rage and disgust but sectarian violence from Israelis is just run of the mill news.
By that logic we expect more from the Palestinian than the Israelis. You are claiming a Palestinian bias in the news, contrary to what I believe is your opinion.

Isolated incidents are irrelevant. If he got away with it and there was a proven track record of people getting away with it, then maybe it would be worthy of discussion.

article wrote:

The Israeli army was unable to provide figures, but the main Israeli human rights group said it had no record of a soldier or policeman being convicted for the killing of a Palestinian
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7126|67.222.138.85
There has to be a track record of soldiers or policemen killing Palestinians outside of their legal bounds as well silly.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

There has to be a track record of soldiers or policemen killing Palestinians outside of their legal bounds as well silly.
There have been accusations of heavy-handedness and brutal treatment against the Israeli security services for years. Many soldiers have been cleared of attacks resulting in death and injury of Palestinians in the past, this decision marks a welcome move away from this trend. It was the same in Northern Ireland with the RUC and British military, they were a law unto themselves and if a case ever did make it to court those involved were simply cleared or given clemency, like Lee Clegg and the Paras involved in Bloody Sunday.

Even the Palestine supporters in here have the good taste to chime in and condemn Hamas when they brutally kill civilians, the equivalent never seems to happen with Israel supporters... I thought maybe a case like this might afford the opportunity to change that.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7181

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Breaking news: Person makes poor decision, punished by government. More at 9 after more news on Bristol Palin's pregnancy.
see, thats what i dont get.  these guys get busted, the other side gets money from iran and such for suicide bombs, yet this is the issue?  ugh.  fuck it.  i agree.  moar about teen preggos
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

usmarine wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Breaking news: Person makes poor decision, punished by government. More at 9 after more news on Bristol Palin's pregnancy.
see, thats what i dont get.  these guys get busted, the other side gets money from iran and such for suicide bombs, yet this is the issue?  ugh.  fuck it.  i agree.  moar about teen preggos
Again, more concern being shown that the Palestinians aren't being demonised enough rather than recognition of the sectarian brutality shown by the Israelis...

Braddock wrote:

Even the Palestine supporters in here have the good taste to chime in and condemn Hamas when they brutally kill civilians, the equivalent never seems to happen with Israel supporters... I thought maybe a case like this might afford the opportunity to change that.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-09-02 16:20:24)

Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|7066
Well, at least they weren't released and praised as heros.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7126|67.222.138.85
I don't see how this is any different that someone from the U.S. fucking up and getting sentenced. Hamas is a group that does not necessarily conform to any laws, and as such each action is judged on an individual basis according to whatever moral standards the person reviewing it holds. If someone commits an offense under a government, that government disciplines them under preconceived laws. People may still judge the actions according to their own standards, but no one can really disagree with the sentencing. The law was just as much the law before the crime as after it, and if anyone has any problems with it they really have problems with the law itself, not the individual case.

In short one may disagree/agree strongly with the Israeli government for their actions, but the individual case itself is irrelevant; it's just business as usual.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I don't see how this is any different that someone from the U.S. fucking up and getting sentenced. Hamas is a group that does not necessarily conform to any laws, and as such each action is judged on an individual basis according to whatever moral standards the person reviewing it holds. If someone commits an offense under a government, that government disciplines them under preconceived laws. People may still judge the actions according to their own standards, but no one can really disagree with the sentencing. The law was just as much the law before the crime as after it, and if anyone has any problems with it they really have problems with the law itself, not the individual case.

In short one may disagree/agree strongly with the Israeli government for their actions, but the individual case itself is irrelevant; it's just business as usual.
This wasn't just a gang of extremist settlers, they were border guards. When I read a story like this I think it's no wonder so many Palestinian babies die at border checkpoints.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7126|67.222.138.85

Braddock wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I don't see how this is any different that someone from the U.S. fucking up and getting sentenced. Hamas is a group that does not necessarily conform to any laws, and as such each action is judged on an individual basis according to whatever moral standards the person reviewing it holds. If someone commits an offense under a government, that government disciplines them under preconceived laws. People may still judge the actions according to their own standards, but no one can really disagree with the sentencing. The law was just as much the law before the crime as after it, and if anyone has any problems with it they really have problems with the law itself, not the individual case.

In short one may disagree/agree strongly with the Israeli government for their actions, but the individual case itself is irrelevant; it's just business as usual.
This wasn't just a gang of extremist settlers, they were border guards. When I read a story like this I think it's no wonder so many Palestinian babies die at border checkpoints.
Right, border guards are the moral equivalent of an immovable object. Humans are human, putting on a uniform doesn't change that.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Well, at least they weren't released and praised as heros.
Again... more interested in complaining about the focus not being on demonising Palestinians than acknowledging the existence of horrible sectarianism within the Israeli security services.

Last edited by Braddock (2008-09-02 16:56:35)

Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

I don't see how this is any different that someone from the U.S. fucking up and getting sentenced. Hamas is a group that does not necessarily conform to any laws, and as such each action is judged on an individual basis according to whatever moral standards the person reviewing it holds. If someone commits an offense under a government, that government disciplines them under preconceived laws. People may still judge the actions according to their own standards, but no one can really disagree with the sentencing. The law was just as much the law before the crime as after it, and if anyone has any problems with it they really have problems with the law itself, not the individual case.

In short one may disagree/agree strongly with the Israeli government for their actions, but the individual case itself is irrelevant; it's just business as usual.
This wasn't just a gang of extremist settlers, they were border guards. When I read a story like this I think it's no wonder so many Palestinian babies die at border checkpoints.
Right, border guards are the moral equivalent of an immovable object. Humans are human, putting on a uniform doesn't change that.
I'm not necessarily referring to you here Flaming_Maniac but I notice that many people here like to argue that virtually all Palestinians are extremist, anti-semitic, Hamas supporters (and often use this as some sort of justification for the kind of collective punishment shown by Israeilis) but when an Israeli is seen to be sectarian and bloodthirsty he/she is an exception to the rule... interesting.

I'd wonder what kind of vetting systems the Israeli security services have when people like these can be put in positions of power in the security services.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7126|67.222.138.85
probably more rigorous than most countries I would guess

Seriously, you're being naive if you think a) this shit doesn't go on all the time all around the world or b) 99% of people don't abuse their power in some form or another. I would suggest getting another race if those facts don't sit well with you.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6830|'Murka

Good for Israel.

Now, let's all hold our breath for the conviction of Palestinian militants for killing Israeli civilians...

Last edited by FEOS (2008-09-02 17:15:31)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

probably more rigorous than most countries I would guess

Seriously, you're being naive if you think a) this shit doesn't go on all the time all around the world or b) 99% of people don't abuse their power in some form or another. I would suggest getting another race if those facts don't sit well with you.
I know for a fact this shit used to go on up in Northern Ireland during the troubles, doesn't happen so much anymore though since they dissolved the RUC, on account of it being inherently sectarian and heavy-handed, and replaced it with the PSNI.

At least you're admitting that sectarian brutality is commonplace in the Israeli security services... in a roundabout way.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6949|Global Command
I read the OP title and I was like, no kidding.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7126|67.222.138.85

Braddock wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

probably more rigorous than most countries I would guess

Seriously, you're being naive if you think a) this shit doesn't go on all the time all around the world or b) 99% of people don't abuse their power in some form or another. I would suggest getting another race if those facts don't sit well with you.
I know for a fact this shit used to go on up in Northern Ireland during the troubles, doesn't happen so much anymore though since they dissolved the RUC, on account of it being inherently sectarian and heavy-handed, and replaced it with the PSNI.

At least you're admitting that sectarian brutality is commonplace in the Israeli security services... in a roundabout way.
"sectarian brutality" is commonplace in humans, and yes, the Israeli security services are human, so sure

Political opinion does exist beyond the Middle Easy ya know.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

FEOS wrote:

Good for Israel.

Now, let's all hold our breath for the conviction of Palestinian militants for killing Israeli civilians...
Do you really expect the Palestinians to develop a Government system that is strong enough and influential enough to implement an effective judiciary system capable of such a thing in it's current oppressed state? I don't.

The Republicans in Northern Ireland were only able make real progress in the quest for peace when they were met half way and given the opportunity to power-share.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6949|Global Command

Braddock wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Good for Israel.

Now, let's all hold our breath for the conviction of Palestinian militants for killing Israeli civilians...
Do you really expect the Palestinians to develop a Government system that is strong enough and influential enough to implement an effective judiciary system capable of such a thing in it's current oppressed state? I don't.

The Republicans in Northern Ireland were only able make real progress in the quest for peace when they were met half way and given the opportunity to power-share.
Power share?

The Israelis didn't disarm them, they fenced them in. Far as we know Hamas has power there.

It seems like all the Jews are asking for is somebody to bargain in good faith. Like when they disbanded some of the settlements in exchange for security arrangements and what they got was a barrage of rockets?

Zionism seems to be a bad thing.
What the world needs is cooperation.

Living together can't we share resources?






Does it require a mushroom cloud?
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6830|'Murka

Braddock wrote:

Do you really expect the Palestinians to develop a Government system that is strong enough and influential enough to implement an effective judiciary system capable of such a thing in it's current oppressed state? I don't.
Yes. Yes I do. The "oppressed state" doesn't prevent Hamas or Fatah from enforcing common laws...but their policies do.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7126|67.222.138.85

ATG wrote:

What the world needs is cooperation.

Living together can't we share resources?

Does it require a mushroom cloud?
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g44/Flaming_Maniac/00228.jpg

When usmarine puts on a red nose like that little joy in the bottom right and our carbon dioxide emissions become a shield of gumdrops against evil then I will believe we can work together as a race of our own accord.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6710|Éire

FEOS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Do you really expect the Palestinians to develop a Government system that is strong enough and influential enough to implement an effective judiciary system capable of such a thing in it's current oppressed state? I don't.
Yes. Yes I do. The "oppressed state" doesn't prevent Hamas or Fatah from enforcing common laws...but their policies do.
You do realise that during the troubles the IRA enforced laws and conducted their own 'trials' in Republican areas... they were also the ones launching attacks. Now that power sharing is in place it's the politicians and not the paramilitaries who make the decisions.

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