One less Dictator thanks to America.Spearhead wrote:
You live in the richest country in the world.
They live in a sandbox ruled by corruption and evil.
Last edited by TheAussieReaper (2008-09-04 16:41:54)
Everyone should pay taxes...and equal amount in fact. Why not have a flat 23% tax across the board minus the first 20k? We don't do that because our tax system has deductions and everything for everyone...even the rich.Spearhead wrote:
Then who pays the taxes? What are we going to do, cut every program possible until nothing but the military is left?
Unless you think taxes are just paying the government... and not paying the debt that everyone owes to society. No one chooses to be poor.
Total capitalism is almost as bad as total "communism". Except for the fact that there's never been a communist country in the world.
Total capitalism is nothing but what you call "communism". The "communism" you saw in the Soviet Union and other places is no different than total capitalism, except the fact that the state owns the capital. So thanks, you can sit right here as the rich and wealthy elite slowly bend the system more and more against poor and underpriveledged, I'll hop on a plane ticket to wherever I can earn a healthy living for myself yet at the same time give everyone else a fair chance.Harmor wrote:
Everyone should pay taxes...and equal amount in fact. Why not have a flat 23% tax across the board minus the first 20k? We don't do that because our tax system has deductions and everything for everyone...even the rich.Spearhead wrote:
Then who pays the taxes? What are we going to do, cut every program possible until nothing but the military is left?
Unless you think taxes are just paying the government... and not paying the debt that everyone owes to society. No one chooses to be poor.
Total capitalism is almost as bad as total "communism". Except for the fact that there's never been a communist country in the world.
However, we have a system where you are penalized for success. As recently as 1970 we had tax rates of 70% for the top income bracket, but because of loopholes the size of Mach trucks none ever paid that much - it was a mirage to the masses.
Today the top 20% pay 80% of the taxes.
Source: http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/n … guest.html
and
Source: http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5746&a … e=1#table1 (if the above is too conservative for you)
I agree, no one chooses to be poor, but people do choose to how hard they are willing to work.
I would much rather have a capitalist country than a communist country...or anything close to it. If you're happy with that type of system, then my all means don't let me stop you from buying the plane ticket, just please don't suggest how I should spend my hard earned money.
Now excuse me as I write a check for $2,000 to my favorite charity.
Last edited by Spearhead (2008-09-04 16:56:06)
Yes, it is politics as usual for the GOP. Unfortunately, it is also politics as usual for the DNC, too. BOTH parties are playing the same old game, but trying to put a pretty face on it. Of course it is hypocritical. It is politics.Spearhead wrote:
What we are saying is that the GOP up until last week based most of its campaign on the fact that Obama lacks experience. You can NOT deny this. It's cold, hard fact. Then they pick Palin and say they're trying to stop politics as usual. How is this not hypocritical?
To me that says the GOP is everything but change and all about politics as usual.
Everyone has a fair chance in the U.S., that's why people come here.Spearhead wrote:
Total capitalism is nothing but what you call "communism". The "communism" you saw in the Soviet Union and other places is no different than total capitalism, except the fact that the state owns the capital. So thanks, you can sit right here as the rich and wealthy elite slowly bend the system more and more against poor and underpriveledged, I'll hop on a plane ticket to wherever I can earn a healthy living for myself yet at the same time give everyone else a fair chance.Harmor wrote:
Everyone should pay taxes...and equal amount in fact. Why not have a flat 23% tax across the board minus the first 20k? We don't do that because our tax system has deductions and everything for everyone...even the rich.Spearhead wrote:
Then who pays the taxes? What are we going to do, cut every program possible until nothing but the military is left?
Unless you think taxes are just paying the government... and not paying the debt that everyone owes to society. No one chooses to be poor.
Total capitalism is almost as bad as total "communism". Except for the fact that there's never been a communist country in the world.
However, we have a system where you are penalized for success. As recently as 1970 we had tax rates of 70% for the top income bracket, but because of loopholes the size of Mach trucks none ever paid that much - it was a mirage to the masses.
Today the top 20% pay 80% of the taxes.
Source: http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/n … guest.html
and
Source: http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=5746&a … e=1#table1 (if the above is too conservative for you)
I agree, no one chooses to be poor, but people do choose to how hard they are willing to work.
I would much rather have a capitalist country than a communist country...or anything close to it. If you're happy with that type of system, then my all means don't let me stop you from buying the plane ticket, just please don't suggest how I should spend my hard earned money.
Now excuse me as I write a check for $2,000 to my favorite charity.
And dont tell me to stop telling you how to spend your money. It's a fucking government for christs sake. If you dont like how its being spent, then vote for someone who will spend it the way you want. The Republicans you seem to like so much surely did a good job making sure you didnt pay taxes, what they forgot to tell you is that they also expanded government more than any Democrat in recent history. If you cannot see where this is headed in the next 100 years then you deserve what's coming to you.
PS It's pretty obvious you don't know much about the left... so stop pretending like you do.
Dont even compare Biden To Palin. The fact he is old and experienced doesnt mean hes not bringing "change". His "newness" was nothing but something brough on by the Hillary camp. Now all the right wingers are using her words against him.imortal wrote:
[
Obama tries to use his 'newness' to say he will bring change, and have a presidency without all of the corruption because he has not become "Washingtonized" (Hey! I made up a word!), but picks a running mate that is the very picture of long-term DC game-player in Joe Biden, who has been a senator as long as I have been alive. It kind of throws his argument out as well.
.
Last edited by Spearhead (2008-09-04 17:09:21)
ummm, that is like saying that "being rich" is just like "being poor" because money is involved.Spearhead wrote:
Total capitalism is nothing but what you call "communism". The "communism" you saw in the Soviet Union and other places is no different than total capitalism, except the fact that the state owns the capital. So thanks, you can sit right here as the rich and wealthy elite slowly bend the system more and more against poor and underpriveledged, I'll hop on a plane ticket to wherever I can earn a healthy living for myself yet at the same time give everyone else a fair chance..
Honestly I care more about the state of my country more than I care about the state of my wallet. That's what makes liberals so great, we don't equate money with success.SoC./Omega wrote:
Everyone has a fair chance in the U.S., that's why people come here.
Oh, and you don't like what Republicans did with taxes? Wait and see if Barack gets elected, you will be either crying like hell or pretend that everything is fine.
What's wrong with Capitalism? You make it sound to evil and that having a transparency in business affairs (i.e. public companies), on a near fair playing field (i.e. laws, regulation, with oversite), is bad.Spearhead wrote:
Total capitalism is nothing but what you call "communism". The "communism" you saw in the Soviet Union and other places is no different than total capitalism, except the fact that the state owns the capital.
How so? Didn't the rich go to jail when they do things like Enron? In other countries they could had greased the palms of party officials and it would had all gone away.Spearhead wrote:
So thanks, you can sit right here as the rich and wealthy elite slowly bend the system more and more against poor and underpriveledged,
I bet that it wouldn't be to a communist country :-PSpearhead wrote:
I'll hop on a plane ticket to wherever I can earn a healthy living for myself yet at the same time give everyone else a fair chance.
I am...see above.Spearhead wrote:
And dont tell me to stop telling you how to spend your money. It's a fucking government for christs sake. If you dont like how its being spent, then vote for someone who will spend it the way you want.
And many of these wishy washy Republicans were voted out in the 2006 election...and I'm happy about that. I harken back to the 1994 Republicans that were for smaller government and less taxes...the bunch in the previous congress though they could buy our votes with pet projects and entitlement programs - they were wrong and they were punished.Spearhead wrote:
The Republicans you seem to like so much surely did a good job making sure you didnt pay taxes, what they forgot to tell you is that they also expanded government more than any Democrat in recent history.
Is this a reference to Iraq or something? I think if we subscribe to conservative principles that this country will do just fine.Spearhead wrote:
If you cannot see where this is headed in the next 100 years then you deserve what's coming to you.
I'm very ignorant of the left...its hard to rationalize why they think they way they do. All I can do is hope that with a couple of more years of life under their belt they'll learn that they are wrong.Spearhead wrote:
PS It's pretty obvious you don't know much about the left... so stop pretending like you do.
You are welcome to think that all you want. It is convienient that we allow ourselves to either overlook, justify, or outright support problems or contradictions, as long as it is favor of the side we support. That, also, is perfectly natural for humans to do.Spearhead wrote:
Yes, both parties play politics. But in 2008 I think one party is definitely playing more than the other.
So? That doesn't mean all Governors must suck big time.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Bush was a former Governor.sergeriver wrote:
I think a former Governor would be a better choice, but neither McCain nor Obama are.lowing wrote:
lol, ok so you are saying McCain shouldn't be president because he has too much experience, and Obama should be president because...........because......huh????
You know you just described yourself as a conservative, right? Liberals TBH in general do not like the U.S. (anarchists belong on the far left, the war protesters belong to the far left, and don't forget the 9/11 idiots, etc). If liberals didn't give a care about their wallet, they wouldn't cry 24/7 about the taxes.Spearhead wrote:
Honestly I care more about the state of my country more than I care about the state of my wallet.SoC./Omega wrote:
Everyone has a fair chance in the U.S., that's why people come here.
Oh, and you don't like what Republicans did with taxes? Wait and see if Barack gets elected, you will be either crying like hell or pretend that everything is fine.
Last edited by SoC./Omega (2008-09-04 17:19:40)
Well, I try to be objective as possible. As do a lot of people. So, unless you apply that to yourself as well, that was a pretty pointless post.imortal wrote:
You are welcome to think that all you want. It is convienient that we allow ourselves to either overlook, justify, or outright support problems or contradictions, as long as it is favor of the side we support. That, also, is perfectly natural for humans to do.Spearhead wrote:
Yes, both parties play politics. But in 2008 I think one party is definitely playing more than the other.
Well, to be fair, the US helped support Saddam back during the Cold War. I kind of looked at it as cleaning up our Cold War messes. Accepting the lesser of two evils kind of sucks once you get rid of the big evil. That lesser one starts to look a bit embarrasing. Of course, that is the way I rationalize to to myself so I can sleep soundly at night.TheAussieReaper wrote:
One less Dictator thanks to America.Spearhead wrote:
You live in the richest country in the world.
They live in a sandbox ruled by corruption and evil.
(thats right I went there).
Democrats stand for capitalism. The GOP on the other hand stands for total capitalism, less and less government, less and less oversight, more and more corporations running Washington and getting away with murder.Harmor wrote:
What's wrong with Capitalism? You make it sound to evil and that having a transparency in business affairs (i.e. public companies), on a near fair playing field (i.e. laws, regulation, with oversite), is bad.
Oh please man. lol. You've got to look at the issues here... Obama isnt in the establishment and wants to lower corruption. Biden as much a part of the establishment as McCain, probably even less, if you knew anything about him.Harmor wrote:
How so? Didn't the rich go to jail when they do things like Enron? In other countries they could had greased the palms of party officials and it would had all gone away.
The rich can bend the rules because they pay politicians so much...and to me that's corruption. So that's why I'm voting for people who aren't the establishment like John McCain and Sarah Palin.
Nope, it'd be where any real American would go, Europe. Britain, France, or Germany.Harmor wrote:
I bet that it wouldn't be to a communist country :-P
small town values were great, in the 19th century. Get with the program. It's progress or we're done for. (we're the most powerful nation in the history of the world and you want small town values? gimme a break)Harmor wrote:
And many of these wishy washy Republicans were voted out in the 2006 election...and I'm happy about that. I harken back to the 1994 Republicans that were for smaller government and less taxes...the bunch in the previous congress though they could buy our votes with pet projects and entitlement programs - they were wrong and they were punished.
Hopefully, this newest batch have learned their lesson and realize that its principles like those small town values that everyone seems to be jeering and snickering about from maverick politicians.
I think the country has been getting more and more conservative in the last 50 years, its not even conservative anymore. And no, we're not doing fine, and we wont be fine, even if Obama gets elected. We'll just dodge one of a whole beltload of machine gun bullets.Harmor wrote:
Is this a reference to Iraq or something? I think if we subscribe to conservative principles that this country will do just fine.
Well if you're ignorant of the left than you're ignorant of history. I actually read about the right wing, from a historical perspective, even though I don't believe in the same things they do.Harmor wrote:
I'm very ignorant of the left...its hard to rationalize why they think they way they do. All I can do is hope that with a couple of more years of life under their belt they'll learn that they are wrong.
What's the saying:
"If you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no brain."
--Wiston Churchill
Last edited by Spearhead (2008-09-04 17:35:04)
Read it in Wikipedia?Spearhead wrote:
Well if you're ignorant of the left than you're ignorant of history. I actually read about the right wing, from a historical perspective, even though I don't believe in the same things they do.Harmor wrote:
What's wrong with Capitalism? You make it sound to evil and that having a transparency in business affairs (i.e. public companies), on a near fair playing field (i.e. laws, regulation, with oversite), is bad.Spearhead wrote:
Total capitalism is nothing but what you call "communism". The "communism" you saw in the Soviet Union and other places is no different than total capitalism, except the fact that the state owns the capital.
Democrats stand for capitalism. The GOP on the other hand stands for total capitalism, less and less government, less and less oversight, more and more corporations running Washington and getting away with murder.How so? Didn't the rich go to jail when they do things like Enron? In other countries they could had greased the palms of party officials and it would had all gone away.Spearhead wrote:
So thanks, you can sit right here as the rich and wealthy elite slowly bend the system more and more against poor and underpriveledged,
The rich can bend the rules because they pay politicians so much...and to me that's corruption. So that's why I'm voting for people who aren't the establishment like John McCain and Sarah Palin.
Oh please man. lol. You've got to look at the issues here... Obama isnt in the establishment and wants to lower corruption. Biden as much a part of the establishment as McCain, probably even less, if you knew anything about him.
And you're a moron if you think the rich get punished. Ever heard of the word scapegoat? Shit is going on everyday that you have no idea about. What about the Valdez spill? Read about it and tell me that this Supreme Court defends the people and not the corporations with a straight face.I bet that it wouldn't be to a communist country :-PSpearhead wrote:
I'll hop on a plane ticket to wherever I can earn a healthy living for myself yet at the same time give everyone else a fair chance.
Nope, it'd be where any real American would go, Europe. Britain, France, or Germany.I am...see above.Spearhead wrote:
And dont tell me to stop telling you how to spend your money. It's a fucking government for christs sake. If you dont like how its being spent, then vote for someone who will spend it the way you want.And many of these wishy washy Republicans were voted out in the 2006 election...and I'm happy about that. I harken back to the 1994 Republicans that were for smaller government and less taxes...the bunch in the previous congress though they could buy our votes with pet projects and entitlement programs - they were wrong and they were punished.Spearhead wrote:
The Republicans you seem to like so much surely did a good job making sure you didnt pay taxes, what they forgot to tell you is that they also expanded government more than any Democrat in recent history.
Hopefully, this newest batch have learned their lesson and realize that its principles like those small town values that everyone seems to be jeering and snickering about from maverick politicians.
small town values were great, in the 19th century. Get with the program. It's progress or we're done for.Is this a reference to Iraq or something? I think if we subscribe to conservative principles that this country will do just fine.Spearhead wrote:
If you cannot see where this is headed in the next 100 years then you deserve what's coming to you.
I think the country has been getting more and more conservative in the last 50 years, its not even conservative anymore. And no, we're not doing fine, and we wont be fine, even if Obama gets elected. We'll just dodge one of a whole beltload of machine gun bullets.I'm very ignorant of the left...its hard to rationalize why they think they way they do. All I can do is hope that with a couple of more years of life under their belt they'll learn that they are wrong.Spearhead wrote:
PS It's pretty obvious you don't know much about the left... so stop pretending like you do.
What's the saying:
"If you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no brain."
--Wiston Churchill
Last edited by SoC./Omega (2008-09-04 17:34:04)
Nah, I read books, too. btw, you look like an ass too. Welcome to the internet.SoC./Omega wrote:
Oh, btw, by the things you type, you look like an ass.
No what is evil is you forcing people to do something that they have no obligation to do. The rich are pretty generous already. There is no need to legally rob them of what they have EARNED and just GIVE it t osomeone who has not EARNED anything.TheAussieReaper wrote:
That's true Harmor. I'd like a more middle ground approach, where the rich are taxed higher rates than the poor, with most of that tax money helping the less well off. But that's rather socialist and evil is some people's minds.Harmor wrote:
I have to agree that this thinking goes against the American way of thinking. I don't believe anyone who is "rich" has any moral obligation to do anything with their earnings. Once you put a moral directive or requirement on how they spend their money you might as well make this a socialist or communist state.Spearhead wrote:
I know this goes against American way of thinking but I believe anyone who is "rich" has a moral obligation to do as much good and to give back as much as possible. The real problem is that the entire system is so corrupt and bueacratic that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. There's no middle class anymore. I'll go off on a Marxist rant some other time.
Not all rich people are assholes, some actually do good.
Okay lowing, and in 100 years, tell me what society will look like.lowing wrote:
No what is evil is you forcing people to do something that they have no obligation to do. The rich are pretty generous already. There is no need to legally rob them of what they have EARNED and just GIVE it t osomeone who has not EARNED anything.TheAussieReaper wrote:
That's true Harmor. I'd like a more middle ground approach, where the rich are taxed higher rates than the poor, with most of that tax money helping the less well off. But that's rather socialist and evil is some people's minds.Harmor wrote:
I have to agree that this thinking goes against the American way of thinking. I don't believe anyone who is "rich" has any moral obligation to do anything with their earnings. Once you put a moral directive or requirement on how they spend their money you might as well make this a socialist or communist state.
Not all rich people are assholes, some actually do good.
Yes, I think the GOP is the lesser of two evils. And I say that knowing the kinds of things Bush did over the last 8 years. However, if control of the goverment is handed over to the Democrats (congressional and executive branches) in the current polarized state of US politics, it could spell the end of the US I know and love.Spearhead wrote:
Well, I try to be objective as possible. As do a lot of people. So, unless you apply that to yourself as well, that was a pretty pointless post.imortal wrote:
You are welcome to think that all you want. It is convienient that we allow ourselves to either overlook, justify, or outright support problems or contradictions, as long as it is favor of the side we support. That, also, is perfectly natural for humans to do.Spearhead wrote:
Yes, both parties play politics. But in 2008 I think one party is definitely playing more than the other.
I dont see why you'd say that, even after I admitted both parties were playing politics. Do you HONESTLY think the GOP is the lesser of two evils here?
I see plenty of inconsistencies in both Obama and Biden. So dont say I'm not at least a little objective. I also know that I do not like the GOP. I do not like the way they talk, the way they think, the way they act, the way they run government.
I support Obama not because he's the best but because he's the only one right now who can stop the GOP.
So how's that for overlooking and justifying everything that I think.
Last edited by imortal (2008-09-04 17:45:49)
we have been moving backwards? How? There is nothing wrong with the economy, unemployment is low is it not? People still seem to have money to but the latest and greatest gadget on the store shelves. It would appear the only ones that are in trouble ar ethe very same people that were in trouble before they were allowed to buy homes through democratic pushed programs that allow the stupid and irresponsible to take on a mortage.Spearhead wrote:
Uhhhh no lowing, we've been moving backwards blindly for the last 8 years, hahahahahaha.lowing wrote:
oh ok so just as long as we blindly move forward huh? Am I allowed t ohope that we are not moving forward toward a cliff?Spearhead wrote:
Ohhh I dunno, moving the country forward instead of backward. It's called progressivism. But it's all just the same to you.
There's a cliff, and the country's been pushed to the edge. We're facing the opposite direction, and we want to get away from the edge.
Analogies ftl, how do you know you're even moving?
Progress = civil rights movements. women suffrage movement. emancipation. Doesnt matter if the Dems or Republicans or whoever did what. Progressives are only a fraction of what you call the "liberal" movement. And progressives have been on the side of progress no matter what party has been pushing for it throughout American history. Guess who the progressives are supporting this election, lowing?
This country should be doing better. If Barack Obama is honestly the best the system offers progressives, then jesus christ we are fucked. Regardless of what you think lowing, the country is much more in the hands of the right than it is in the left.
Last edited by Spearhead (2008-09-04 17:45:31)
Na na ne boo boo.Spearhead wrote:
Nah, I read books, too. btw, you look like an ass too. Welcome to the internet.SoC./Omega wrote:
Oh, btw, by the things you type, you look like an ass.
I absolutely agree that my own statement applies to me as well. Yes, these topics have been debated many, many times in this forum, with the usual result of the more left-leaning starting to call the more right-leaning names and devolve the debate until everyone throws up their hands in frustration.Spearhead wrote:
You are welcome to think that all you want. It is convienient that we allow ourselves to either overlook, justify, or outright support problems or contradictions, as long as it is favor of the side we support. That, also, is perfectly natural for humans to do.
funny, you think it applies to only me, or what?
Everything you described has been discussed lots of times in these forums... kind of pointless to go over them again. but dont pretend to be the objective one and then label me as overlooking every flaw in the Democratic party.
Its your funeral dude, I dont care if you disagree.