Pages: 1 2 3 4

 

2008-11-22 02:18:34
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6566|'straya

lowing wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:


Nope, what I blame on the companies are giving into rediculous union demands. What I blame unions for is demanding rediculous compensation for unskilled labor by threatening job actions if they do not comply. This forcing companies t oseek labor elsewhere, and rightfully so.
But u also said its a persons fault for not being successful.... because that means they must not have put in the effort/hard work.

are all the employees being fired lazy, ungrateful, unmotivated, unsuccessful people?
Never said that, but if you have spent your life peeling tape off of a car for middle class status, do not be surprised and pissed off when your bubble bursts and you find no else gives a fuck about tape peeling skills in the marketplace. Do not blame anyone else that you did not bother to make yourself really marketable and decided to rely on your company hand holding you through life instead of relying on yourself.
Yes u didnt say that specifically... but u did say that anyone who works hard, puts in the effort and is motivated will be successful...

instead of unskilled labour lets try this example... my brother is a uni student (studying architecture) and works in a architecture firm. recently 2 uni students and 2 architects were fired because of the financial state, the company was worried people would be build/designing as much so they fired some people....

now these are skilled people (especially the architects).. i dont know if they found new jobs after wards or wat... but were these people unsuccessful because of a lack of work etc. no... because of circumstances outside their control... thats all im saying.
2008-11-22 02:26:13
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7068|USA

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:


But u also said its a persons fault for not being successful.... because that means they must not have put in the effort/hard work.

are all the employees being fired lazy, ungrateful, unmotivated, unsuccessful people?
Never said that, but if you have spent your life peeling tape off of a car for middle class status, do not be surprised and pissed off when your bubble bursts and you find no else gives a fuck about tape peeling skills in the marketplace. Do not blame anyone else that you did not bother to make yourself really marketable and decided to rely on your company hand holding you through life instead of relying on yourself.
Yes u didnt say that specifically... but u did say that anyone who works hard, puts in the effort and is motivated will be successful...

instead of unskilled labour lets try this example... my brother is a uni student (studying architecture) and works in a architecture firm. recently 2 uni students and 2 architects were fired because of the financial state, the company was worried people would be build/designing as much so they fired some people....

now these are skilled people (especially the architects).. i dont know if they found new jobs after wards or wat... but were these people unsuccessful because of a lack of work etc. no... because of circumstances outside their control... thats all im saying.
good examples, but I stand by my belief, "anyone who works hard, puts in the effort and is motivated will be successful" and here is why.

You have a 40 year old tape peeler, and an architect applying for a job unrelated to either field. Who are you ging to seriously consider the unskilled tape peeler, or the guy who persued higher education, and had the drive to become an architect?

Who shows more ambition, desire, motviation, determination and drive? The guy who spent his life peeling tape or the architect? Who is more trainable, who would you trust more, who shows more responsibility, who portraits better judgement?  In short, who has a better chance of getting that job?

Marketable, make yourself marketable
2008-11-22 02:34:29
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6566|'straya

lowing wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:


Never said that, but if you have spent your life peeling tape off of a car for middle class status, do not be surprised and pissed off when your bubble bursts and you find no else gives a fuck about tape peeling skills in the marketplace. Do not blame anyone else that you did not bother to make yourself really marketable and decided to rely on your company hand holding you through life instead of relying on yourself.
Yes u didnt say that specifically... but u did say that anyone who works hard, puts in the effort and is motivated will be successful...

instead of unskilled labour lets try this example... my brother is a uni student (studying architecture) and works in a architecture firm. recently 2 uni students and 2 architects were fired because of the financial state, the company was worried people would be build/designing as much so they fired some people....

now these are skilled people (especially the architects).. i dont know if they found new jobs after wards or wat... but were these people unsuccessful because of a lack of work etc. no... because of circumstances outside their control... thats all im saying.
good examples, but I stand by my belief, "anyone who works hard, puts in the effort and is motivated will be successful" and here is why.

You have a 40 year old tape peeler, and an architect applying for a job unrelated to either field. Who are you ging to seriously consider the unskilled tape peeler, or the guy who persued higher education, and had the drive to become an architect?

Who shows more ambition, desire, motviation, determination and drive? The guy who spent his life peeling tape or the architect? Who is more trainable, who would you trust more, who shows more responsibility, who portraits better judgement?  In short, who has a better chance of getting that job?

Marketable, make yourself marketable
That is also true... but really depends on whether ur looking as equal work... or comparitive to situation...

just think about this... it might've been just as hard for the tape peeler and architect to get where they are... depending on where they started...
eg. (just for examples sake) architect - private school education, upper middle class family, parents that can afford uni degree and/or college fees etc
tape peeler - couldnt afford to go to school, therefore couldnt get higher education, parents coundnt pay for anything - therefor became an unskilled worker,

for the tape peeler to become and architect he would have had to be far more dedicated and motivated than the architect.

I guess my main point is that for an average person hard work, dedication is essential for success. But, due to circumstances and situtions outside their control hard work and dedication may not be enough....
2008-11-22 03:47:21
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,072|7189|PNW

Reciprocity wrote:

yes, "working hard and believing in yourself" are exclusively republican qualities.  blow it out your fucking ass.
OP's quote could've just as easily come from a Democrat.

When will people stop defining themselves socially by political party?

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2008-11-22 03:47:46)

2008-11-22 03:55:14
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6523|eXtreme to the maX

Lowing wrote:

Now, COULD I have been a professional pilot? Yup, I could have if I worked hard enough to achieve that goal. As it sits, I did not. It is no ones fault but my own.
So don't criticise other people for being lazy then

USM wrote:

i can see why you are not
I'm not CEO material.
People have different skills, mine are in engineering, not management or climbing the greasy pole.
I graduated from the top engineering college in the UK before I was 21, I made the Olympic squad for my sport, I have been headhunted three times now for my engineering expertise - but CEO material I'm not.

In my experience working hard is not enough, starting point in life, taking the right decisions, and luck, play equal parts.
You can work like crazy but if its the wrong thing your time is wasted.

If I'd not had educated parents with reasonable parenting skills and a stable financial base I wouldn't be where I am now.
If I'd taken my masters in structural engineering I could name my price now, as it is I'm doing OK.
If I'd taken the low paid job in nuclear propulsion systems I was offered I could really name my price now, oh well.
If I hadn't made the right allies here and there I wouldn't be where I am now. Some freebies I've done have paid off, others not so much.
If I hadn't been fortunate with good health, reasonable intelligence and an obsessive-compulsive attention to detail I wouldn't be where I am now - all luck - and I'm well aware of it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-11-22 04:24:48)

Fuck Israel
2008-11-22 04:29:56
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7068|USA

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

lowing wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:


Yes u didnt say that specifically... but u did say that anyone who works hard, puts in the effort and is motivated will be successful...

instead of unskilled labour lets try this example... my brother is a uni student (studying architecture) and works in a architecture firm. recently 2 uni students and 2 architects were fired because of the financial state, the company was worried people would be build/designing as much so they fired some people....

now these are skilled people (especially the architects).. i dont know if they found new jobs after wards or wat... but were these people unsuccessful because of a lack of work etc. no... because of circumstances outside their control... thats all im saying.
good examples, but I stand by my belief, "anyone who works hard, puts in the effort and is motivated will be successful" and here is why.

You have a 40 year old tape peeler, and an architect applying for a job unrelated to either field. Who are you ging to seriously consider the unskilled tape peeler, or the guy who persued higher education, and had the drive to become an architect?

Who shows more ambition, desire, motviation, determination and drive? The guy who spent his life peeling tape or the architect? Who is more trainable, who would you trust more, who shows more responsibility, who portraits better judgement?  In short, who has a better chance of getting that job?

Marketable, make yourself marketable
That is also true... but really depends on whether ur looking as equal work... or comparitive to situation...

just think about this... it might've been just as hard for the tape peeler and architect to get where they are... depending on where they started...
eg. (just for examples sake) architect - private school education, upper middle class family, parents that can afford uni degree and/or college fees etc
tape peeler - couldnt afford to go to school, therefore couldnt get higher education, parents coundnt pay for anything - therefor became an unskilled worker,

for the tape peeler to become and architect he would have had to be far more dedicated and motivated than the architect.

I guess my main point is that for an average person hard work, dedication is essential for success. But, due to circumstances and situtions outside their control hard work and dedication may not be enough....
You are forgetting that the tape peeler, HAD a middle class income artifically valued by union interference. With that income he had just as much opportunity to get educated and better his marketability WHILE he had the resources to do so. He chose not to, and you think this makes him my ( the tax payers) responsibility? I do not think so
2008-11-22 04:31:48
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7068|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Lowing wrote:

Now, COULD I have been a professional pilot? Yup, I could have if I worked hard enough to achieve that goal. As it sits, I did not. It is no ones fault but my own.
So don't criticise other people for being lazy then

USM wrote:

i can see why you are not
I'm not CEO material.
People have different skills, mine are in engineering, not management or climbing the greasy pole.
I graduated from the top engineering college in the UK before I was 21, I made the Olympic squad for my sport, I have been headhunted three times now for my engineering expertise - but CEO material I'm not.

In my experience working hard is not enough, starting point in life, taking the right decisions, and luck, play equal parts.
You can work like crazy but if its the wrong thing your time is wasted.

If I'd not had educated parents with reasonable parenting skills and a stable financial base I wouldn't be where I am now.
If I'd taken my masters in structural engineering I could name my price now, as it is I'm doing OK.
If I'd taken the low paid job in nuclear propulsion systems I was offered I could really name my price now, oh well.
If I hadn't made the right allies here and there I wouldn't be where I am now. Some freebies I've done have paid off, others not so much.
If I hadn't been fortunate with good health, reasonable intelligence and an obsessive-compulsive attention to detail I wouldn't be where I am now - all luck - and I'm well aware of it.
I do not critize others for being lazy, I couldn't care less, I critize others who expect me to pay for their laziness. This is something I do not do, nor do I expect to have to do.
2008-11-22 04:48:36
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6998|SE London

lowing wrote:

san4 wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:


Blame Union, not the R's.  Blame the business not the political party... Or better yet, the government could run it all.
I'm not blaming the R's for layoffs. Just saying they're done for if they blame the individuals who got laid off. Which is what Boehner (and lowing) want to do.
Nope, what I blame on the companies are giving into rediculous union demands. What I blame unions for is demanding rediculous compensation for unskilled labor by threatening job actions if they do not comply. This forcing companies t oseek labor elsewhere, and rightfully so.
And you're right.

Just take the car companies as an example. The heavily unionised US car manufacturers pay their workers stupidly inflated salaries that are practicaly causing the businesses to fold. GM pay an average of around $70/hour including pension contributions, Toyota (at their US plants) pay an average of around $45/hour including pension contributions.

If these companies give into unions and pay silly wages for low skilled labour then that's their own stupid fault.
2008-11-22 04:51:05
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7068|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

san4 wrote:


I'm not blaming the R's for layoffs. Just saying they're done for if they blame the individuals who got laid off. Which is what Boehner (and lowing) want to do.
Nope, what I blame on the companies are giving into rediculous union demands. What I blame unions for is demanding rediculous compensation for unskilled labor by threatening job actions if they do not comply. This forcing companies t oseek labor elsewhere, and rightfully so.
And you're right.

Just take the car companies as an example. The heavily unionised US car manufacturers pay their workers stupidly inflated salaries that are practicaly causing the businesses to fold. GM pay an average of around $70/hour including pension contributions, Toyota (at their US plants) pay an average of around $45/hour including pension contributions.

If these companies give into unions and pay silly wages for low skilled labour then that's their own stupid fault.
I am not sure, have we ever agreed on anything before?
2008-11-22 04:53:48
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6998|SE London

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:


Nope, what I blame on the companies are giving into rediculous union demands. What I blame unions for is demanding rediculous compensation for unskilled labor by threatening job actions if they do not comply. This forcing companies t oseek labor elsewhere, and rightfully so.
And you're right.

Just take the car companies as an example. The heavily unionised US car manufacturers pay their workers stupidly inflated salaries that are practicaly causing the businesses to fold. GM pay an average of around $70/hour including pension contributions, Toyota (at their US plants) pay an average of around $45/hour including pension contributions.

If these companies give into unions and pay silly wages for low skilled labour then that's their own stupid fault.
I am not sure, have we ever agreed on anything before?
From time to time. Usually on these sort of issues.....
2008-11-22 04:55:08
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7068|USA

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


And you're right.

Just take the car companies as an example. The heavily unionised US car manufacturers pay their workers stupidly inflated salaries that are practicaly causing the businesses to fold. GM pay an average of around $70/hour including pension contributions, Toyota (at their US plants) pay an average of around $45/hour including pension contributions.

If these companies give into unions and pay silly wages for low skilled labour then that's their own stupid fault.
I am not sure, have we ever agreed on anything before?
From time to time. Usually on these sort of issues.....
Ok, just checking, I won't tell, I wouldn't wanna ruin anybody's reputation.
2008-11-22 07:48:54
san4
The Mas
+311|7105|NYC, a place to live

lowing wrote:

Never said that, but if you have spent your life peeling tape off of a car for middle class status, do not be surprised and pissed off when your bubble bursts and you find no else gives a fuck about tape peeling skills in the marketplace. Do not blame anyone else that you did not bother to make yourself really marketable and decided to rely on your company hand holding you through life instead of relying on yourself.
Should Republican Party candidates say this to laid off workers? I don't think it would win many votes.
2008-11-22 08:10:20
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7068|USA

san4 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Never said that, but if you have spent your life peeling tape off of a car for middle class status, do not be surprised and pissed off when your bubble bursts and you find no else gives a fuck about tape peeling skills in the marketplace. Do not blame anyone else that you did not bother to make yourself really marketable and decided to rely on your company hand holding you through life instead of relying on yourself.
Should Republican Party candidates say this to laid off workers? I don't think it would win many votes.
First answer this: Is it the truth?
2008-11-23 10:05:45
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7107|Tampa Bay Florida
Because we all know that if you are a democrat you think the exact opposite of working hard and achieving anything.

John Boehners a dickhead.  That quote shows everyone why.
2008-11-23 10:08:12
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6822|North Carolina
I wouldn't say Boehner's a complete dickhead, but with a name like that, he must have gotten picked on a lot during school.
2008-11-23 10:10:54
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7107|Tampa Bay Florida
I think he's a complete dickhead.  Haven't seen him say anything that would make me think differently tbh.

Actually it seems that all congressional leaders for both parties seem to be jerks.  Reid, Pelosi, Bonerhead and the other dude.  They all suck.  I wonder why?
2008-11-23 10:14:28
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6822|North Carolina

Spearhead wrote:

I think he's a complete dickhead.  Haven't seen him say anything that would make me think differently tbh.

Actually it seems that all congressional leaders for both parties seem to be jerks.  Reid, Pelosi, Bonerhead and the other dude.  They all suck.  I wonder why?
Well, I probably agree with very little Boehner stands for, and I often find myself at odds with Reid and Pelosi, but Boehner does hit some good points here.

Republicans really do need to get back to their Libertarian roots.  Otherwise, the Democrats will rightfully school them in the next few elections.

People are generally sick of neoconservatism, except in the most extreme conservative areas.
2008-11-23 13:33:12
san4
The Mas
+311|7105|NYC, a place to live

lowing wrote:

san4 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Never said that, but if you have spent your life peeling tape off of a car for middle class status, do not be surprised and pissed off when your bubble bursts and you find no else gives a fuck about tape peeling skills in the marketplace. Do not blame anyone else that you did not bother to make yourself really marketable and decided to rely on your company hand holding you through life instead of relying on yourself.
Should Republican Party candidates say this to laid off workers? I don't think it would win many votes.
First answer this: Is it the truth?
I think it is part of the truth. Some people who get laid off have only themselves to blame.

But usually there is more to it than that. I think Republicans should not say this to voters because it is an incomplete explanation for a much more complex economic problem.
2008-11-23 14:20:18
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6707|Éire

san4 wrote:

lowing wrote:

san4 wrote:


Should Republican Party candidates say this to laid off workers? I don't think it would win many votes.
First answer this: Is it the truth?
I think it is part of the truth. Some people who get laid off have only themselves to blame.

But usually there is more to it than that. I think Republicans should not say this to voters because it is an incomplete explanation for a much more complex economic problem.
The reality is the world will always need people to clean toilets, collect garbage, flip burgers and operate certain types of machinery; if we didn't have these people things would come screeching to a halt... even in lowingworld. It's very easy to sit there smugly wagging one's finger but not everyone in life possesses the intelligence and/or capabilities to become a helicopter mechanic. We don't mind having these people around to clean up our shit and process our tinned foods and whatnot so why be so harsh on them when they suffer at the hands of the economic climate... at least they made an effort to work and contribute when there was work available.
2008-11-23 20:51:26
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7098|Disaster Free Zone
Define successful.
To some, its being able to buy a decent house in the suburbs, have a good reliable car and be comfortable paying off your mortgage and a holiday once in a while.
While others see it as having a mutimillion dollar water front mansion, a couple of high end sports and luxury cars, a yacht and be retired by 40 and traveling the world.

The first is probably obtainable to most people who get a job and get paid. But in my eyes that is not successful, but merely mediocre. To become truly successful you need much more then just hard work, and those born to rich intelligent parents have a much easier time at it. And is why the Government should be helping those people born into less then ideal situations with free education, free health care, and monetary help so everyone can focus on bettering their lives then merely getting a job so they can exist.
2008-11-23 21:00:56
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7068|USA

san4 wrote:

lowing wrote:

san4 wrote:


Should Republican Party candidates say this to laid off workers? I don't think it would win many votes.
First answer this: Is it the truth?
I think it is part of the truth. Some people who get laid off have only themselves to blame.

But usually there is more to it than that. I think Republicans should not say this to voters because it is an incomplete explanation for a much more complex economic problem.
No what I mean is, IS what I sad the truth? The previous paragrph do you agree?
2008-11-23 21:04:38
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7068|USA

Braddock wrote:

san4 wrote:

lowing wrote:


First answer this: Is it the truth?
I think it is part of the truth. Some people who get laid off have only themselves to blame.

But usually there is more to it than that. I think Republicans should not say this to voters because it is an incomplete explanation for a much more complex economic problem.
The reality is the world will always need people to clean toilets, collect garbage, flip burgers and operate certain types of machinery; if we didn't have these people things would come screeching to a halt... even in lowingworld. It's very easy to sit there smugly wagging one's finger but not everyone in life possesses the intelligence and/or capabilities to become a helicopter mechanic. We don't mind having these people around to clean up our shit and process our tinned foods and whatnot so why be so harsh on them when they suffer at the hands of the economic climate... at least they made an effort to work and contribute when there was work available.
Yer right I do not mind. I am an aircraft mechanic, NOT a CEO, I do not expect CEO wages and/or compensation it is not reality I did not work for toward it. So explain why a burger flipper should expect aircraft mechanic wages or teacher wages, or firemen wages when they have not worked for such compensation
2008-11-23 21:21:17
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6965|San Diego, CA, USA
/sarcasm
We should raise the minimum wage to $22 per hour this way everyone can have a "living wage".
/sarcasm

But of course if we did that we would see massive unemployment because the reason why we pay people so little is that their work is worth that.

You're right, a burger flipper should not be making $12 / hour...hell after a certain point we'll just make a vending-machine-sized version of McDonalds if unskilled laborers were required to be paid that much.

Only 4% of the workforce at any one time is actually getting paid minimum wage...and most of those earn more because of tips (i.e. waitresses/bartenders).  Those on minimum wage quickly start earning more as they become more skilled.

Now it may not be as much as a college graduate, but really what do you expect someone with no education to earn?


Good article: Minimum Wage Hikes Hurt Unskilled and Disadvantaged Workers' Job Prospects


Here in California we have an "ROP" program (Regional Occupational Preparedness I think its what its called).  Its a FREE program where adults can take classes at the local community college for job skills (i.e. plumber, computer repair, electrical, etc...)


So really if you're earning minimum wage you have no excuse besides a mental or physical disability, why you're earning minimum wage for an extended period of time.  (P.S for those who are disabled they can get like $2,000/month from Social Security - I know because a friend of mine from college was getting that for her disability).
2008-11-23 21:31:01
Ridir
Semper Fi!
+48|7181
This goes back to about half way down the page (3). If you have a properly motivated and poor in the United States you have free public education. It might not be the best and it might be dangerous in the inner city but you can survive and make it out. If you are a minority and want to go to a center of higher education there are plenty of options. You might not be able to go to a four year university but there are community colleges and the like all over the place that are CHEAP. There are also millions and millions, well billions of dollars in grants and scholarships for minority, poor and under privelaged students. That is not taking into account federal and state government aid which is extremely helpful. (Nevada has a $10,000 scholarship for its high school graduates, Texas for the top 10% from each school). So the means for higher education and self improvement are there. It is simply a question of motivation.

Sure you can work hard and improve yourself and bad luck can fall on you. I have been working myself ragged with university studies, working 20 hours a week, working security for the university events center and athletics, plus the Marine Reserves. I don't have a spare moment hardly from everything I do and am responsible for. I am in the Marine Crops Officer Selection program which is how I intend to make a career for the next twenty plus years but I managed to dislocate my shoulder which requried surgery this year. I could have just stopped and said I am too screwed up and won't make it. I had six weeks of being immoblized in a sling, another few weeks in just the sling ( was suppose to be another 6 but I couldn't stand it) and another 2 months of rehab. I'm doing it, I'm working extremely hard to get my physical fitness back up to my standards, I'm working extremely hard to improve my mind (education), and I work an unending amount of work.

Now my situation: I come from divorced parents. I lived with my mother and my stepdad from age 3. He drives long haul trucks, but worked various jobs throughout his time with us [printer, bus driver, trucker, lawn mower repair man], and my mother was a high school teacher. He has no high school diploma, she had a BA and eventually got a MA through our family's sacrafice of a lot [he had to work two jobs, I wore second hand clothes from cousins]. That got her to a solo income of $40,000 a year. I had a driving force behind me of my these two adults to make me have a better life than they did. So they pushed for me to do well in school and then I was able to choose whether or not to go into the Marines or higher education. I went for both in a hybrid sort of way and I am making my life better. Sure I might only make 10k-12k a year right now, but I get grants, scholarships, subsidized student loans and when I do get commissioned I will be making between 30-38k a year entry.  That is a heck of a lot better than someone that is similar to me that didn't go to college or try in school and is working retail hourly.
2008-11-23 21:32:06
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7133
Life is not fair always... and you might or might not have some huge hurdles... but if you wan't something bad enough... you can find a way... even people that seem to have overwhelming odds... you read about it everyday...
Excuses can keep you broke and unhappy your whole life...some situations are very dire and that sucks...but as long as i can walk and talk... i can get up and change my situation...  and to the people that think they are owed something... they are wrong...    Kinda harsh but it's reality
Love is the answer

 

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