Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX
The election of Barack Obama has energised those seeking a change in relations between the US and Cuba.

And with so many thorny, complex issues awaiting the incoming president, analysts say Cuba might provide Mr Obama with an easy opportunity to bring about the kind of change to America's foreign policy that the world and Latin America in particular are waiting for.

From Russia to Iran, Iraq and Pakistan, "none of these crises will allow President Obama to signal swiftly to the world the kind of changes he proposes in American foreign policy," write Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief-of-staff to Colin Powell, and Patrick Doherty, from the New American Foundation.

"In contrast, US-Cuba policy is low-hanging fruit: though of marginal importance domestically, it could be changed immediately at little cost."
Hopes have been raised by statements made by Barack Obama himself and policies spelled out on his campaign website.

A big factor driving the calls for change is the growing number of Cuban-Americans who are eager for more contact with the homeland, want to help their families there improve their living standards and believe this will help bring about change inside Cuba.
Attitudes are especially changing amongst the younger generation, which does not bear the scars of life under Fidel Castro - but some older Cuban-American have also had a change of heart.

Carlos Saladrigas is a 60-year-old Cuban-American from Miami. He is a life-long Republican, but voted for Mr Obama this time round.
Speaking to the BBC earlier this year, he said: "You don't have to be very smart to figure out that after 50 years of trying something that hasn't worked, maybe it's time to try something new."

He said the best way to bring about change inside Cuba was to allow Cuban-Americans to become the agents of change by letting them visit the island.

On Mr Obama's campaign website, the section on Cuba states that he will "empower our best ambassadors of freedom by allowing unlimited Cuban-American family travel and remittances to the island".

A quick way to send a signal of change would indeed be for Barack Obama to lift some of the restrictions imposed by President George W Bush in 2004.
Mr Bush limited the number of visits Cuban-Americans were permitted to make to the communist island from one a year down to one every three years.
He also reduced the amount of remittances they could take with them to Cuba from $3,000 to $300.

A new report published by the Brookings Institution in Washington makes even further recommendations on Cuba, advising almost total reversal of US policy.
The report, written by prominent policy-makers from the US and Latin America, advocates lifting all restrictions on travel to Cuba by Americans and recommends removing Cuba from the State Department's list of countries sponsoring terrorism.
While Mr Obama may not go this far initially, there is little doubt that he will make changes to a policy that has put the US at odds with most of the world.
In October, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution urging the US to lift its trade embargo against Havana, for the 17th year in a row.
Only Israel and Palau joined the US in supporting the embargo, with 185 countries voting against it.
A rapprochement with Cuba would also help improve ties with Latin America.

On his website, Mr Obama states that "George Bush's policy in the Americas has been negligent toward our friends, ineffective with our adversaries, disinterested in the challenges that matter in people's lives, and incapable of advancing our interests in the region".
As the Americas have changed, we have sat on the sideline, offering no compelling vision and creating a vacuum for demagogues to advance an anti-American agenda."

The Bush administration rejects the charge that it has neglected Latin America, pointing out that the president has travelled nine times to the region.
But there is clearly room for improvement, according to Mr Wilkerson and Mr Doherty.
"Our Cuba policy is also an obstacle to striking a new relationship with the nations of Latin America," they write.
"But until Washington ends the extraordinary sanctions that comprise the Cuba embargo, Latin America will remain at arms-length, and the problems in our backyard - Hugo Chavez, drugs, immigration, energy insecurity - will simply fester."
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7807348.stm

Seems sensible to me, the whole US-Cuba relationship has been childish and petty up to now, it would be a good thing to see it normalised.
Fuck Israel
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6998|SE London

Sounds sensible.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7065

Good idea if you ask me, the whole thing was so petty.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6884
We embargoed Cuba cuz they were the Soviets' butt-buddies.

So now that The Union is no moar, why do we still have an embargo?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX

Doctastrangelove wrote:

We embargoed Cuba cuz they were the Soviets' butt-buddies.

So now that The Union is no moar, why do we still have an embargo?
Duhbya increased the sanctions, you need to stfu and trust your guvinmint.

It does seem pathetic, in the supposed 'land of the free' there are laws saying where you're allowed to travel and who you're allowed to give money to.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-01-02 13:35:12)

Fuck Israel
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7065

DoctaStrangelove wrote:

We embargoed Cuba cuz they were the Soviets' butt-buddies.

So now that The Union is no moar, why do we still have an embargo?
Was there even an embargo with the Soviet Union?

The US on the subject of trade with Cuba

WAAAAAAAHHH!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX
Cuba was a corrupt country run for the benefit of the rich few - who also happened to be in bed with the US republicans.
The revolution prompted a massive dummy-spit, and here we are today.
Fuck Israel
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6903|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
I think its funny that we have better relations with North Korean then we do with a country 90mi off our cost. Castro must really have some nasty stuff on some former high ranking politicians(both Dem and Rep, because we have had both in power since their revolution)
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6887

SgtHeihn wrote:

I think its funny that we have better relations with North Korean then we do with a country 90mi off our cost. Castro must really have some nasty stuff on some former high ranking politicians(both Dem and Rep, because we have had both in power since their revolution)
I think this is part of the reason you have polarized relations with Cuba and made them the ultimate ENEMIES!!! I think so much shit was stirring around the pots around the Soviet-era / Cold War, on both sides, that your government are holding back on making relations normal again until Castro kicks it and dies. I bet Castro has a lot of shit on your government that Washington wouldn't want to get into the public Forum or mainstream media. Plus of course half the hatred for Cuba was achieved through huge amounts of anti-Communist/anti-Cuban propaganda... if you lift the embargo when Castro is still in power and the place turns out to be better than you made it out, then you look like fucking dolts.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7037|London, England

ghettoperson wrote:

DoctaStrangelove wrote:

We embargoed Cuba cuz they were the Soviets' butt-buddies.

So now that The Union is no moar, why do we still have an embargo?
Was there even an embargo with the Soviet Union?
Good question, I wonder what trade was like between US&A and USS&R during the cold war. I bet it was better than how they respectively treated satellite states etc.. basically USA/USSR were hustling the world

wot gangstas!!1
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6827|'Murka

I think Fidel dropping out of the picture has made normalizing relations with Cuba much easier. Raul is much more moderate and realizes that the pure socialist experiment of Cuba has failed its people.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,822|6522|eXtreme to the maX
Don't see the problem TBH.
The US has normal relations and colossal trade with China, why not Cuba?
Cubans make cigars, Americans smoke cigars, seems simple enough.
Fuck Israel
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6821|North Carolina
Hopefully, this will come to fruition.

Cuba has the potential to be a great trading partner.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6965|San Diego, CA, USA

Turquoise wrote:

Hopefully, this will come to fruition.

Cuba has the potential to be a great trading partner.
Yes, their Cuban Cigars will be a huge export.


I don't think we should normalize until THEY show they are openning up their country.  Remember this was the same government that allowed Russians to put nuclear missiles on their land (remember the Cuban Missle Crisis in 1961?).

Raul has to open up Cuba starting with releasing their political prisoners and having democratic elections.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6821|North Carolina

Harmor wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Hopefully, this will come to fruition.

Cuba has the potential to be a great trading partner.
Yes, their Cuban Cigars will be a huge export.


I don't think we should normalize until THEY show they are openning up their country.  Remember this was the same government that allowed Russians to put nuclear missiles on their land (remember the Cuban Missle Crisis in 1961?).

Raul has to open up Cuba starting with releasing their political prisoners and having democratic elections.
Well, hopefully, you'd apply the same standards to China.  You wouldn't want to look hypocritical.   You might also want to take a look at Saudi Arabia.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6965|San Diego, CA, USA

Turquoise wrote:

Well, hopefully, you'd apply the same standards to China.  You wouldn't want to look hypocritical.   You might also want to take a look at Saudi Arabia.
I have to be hypocritical with China and Saudi Arabia because:

1. China has us by the balls econmically (they own about $1 trillion in our debt), manufacture alot of stuff REALLY cheap, and has a nuclear arsenal that rival's ours
2. Saudi Arabia has us by the balls because they supply 20% of the world's oil...our economy is very heavily dependent on oil.

We 'protest' about their human rights violations but as you saw with Bush at the Olympics, its often very limp wristed.


So we have to play ball with them as much as I would not like too.

Sorry, but I have a bad taste in my mouth with dictators...my family had all their property taken by Trujillo in the 1950s, so until Raul opens up Cuba I only think we should very minor carrots to encourage them.

I just hope the hardliners don't take over their government...we don't want another Chavez 90 miles south west of Florida.

Last edited by Harmor (2009-01-03 14:46:32)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6821|North Carolina

Harmor wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Well, hopefully, you'd apply the same standards to China.  You wouldn't want to look hypocritical.   You might also want to take a look at Saudi Arabia.
I have to be hypocritical with China and Saudi Arabia because:

1. China has us by the balls econmically (they own about $1 trillion in our debt), manufacture alot of stuff REALLY cheap, and has a nuclear arsenal that rival's ours
2. Saudi Arabia has us by the balls because they supply 20% of the world's oil...our economy is very heavily dependent on oil.

We 'protest' about their human rights violations but as you saw with Bush at the Olympics, its often very limp wristed.


So we have to play ball with them as much as I would not like too.

Sorry, but I have a bad taste in my mouth with dictators...my family had all their property taken by Trujillo in the 1950s, so until Raul opens up Cuba I only think we should very minor carrots to encourage them.

I just hope the hardliners don't take over their government...we don't want another Chavez 90 miles south west of Florida.
I'm sorry to hear about your family's connections to this, but think about this.

Raul spent most of his life as a strongman for his brother.  He's not an ideologue like Fidel.  Chances are, he just likes power and money.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Cuba would greatly benefit from trade with us, and we would benefit from it as well.  If you want to see less people risking their lives drifting on rafts to get into America, then the prosperity of Cuba through trade should be in your best interests.

The standard of living will naturally rise in Cuba through our trade with them, and with that comes benefits to industry for both us and them.  Now, transforming them into a democracy will likely take much longer, but you have to start somewhere.  Prosperity generally leads to democratic reforms as the people become better educated and have more time to actually think about what their rights should be.

Right now, Cuba is too economically desperate for a functional democracy, so the next best thing is a government run by a powerful leader with open markets.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6965|San Diego, CA, USA
Agreed, but when you have the likes of Chavez going into Cuba and encouraging them ... its not helping.

I agree we should normalize relations with Cuba, but only if they truly change as I mentioned above.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6821|North Carolina

Harmor wrote:

Agreed, but when you have the likes of Chavez going into Cuba and encouraging them ... its not helping.

I agree we should normalize relations with Cuba, but only if they truly change as I mentioned above.
Chavez has far less appeal than the prosperity that open trade with America would bring.  Raul doesn't have to be that perceptive to know this.

Chavez is much more like Fidel in his zeal for authoritarian power and socialism.  I don't think Raul is quite like that, but I could be wrong.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6965|San Diego, CA, USA
Raul Castro is 77.  I hope you're right and he sees the light of day and opens up his country, but I doubt he'll do much while his brother is alive.  Until then we can only hope for modest gains in normalcy.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6965|San Diego, CA, USA

Turquoise wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Agreed, but when you have the likes of Chavez going into Cuba and encouraging them ... its not helping.

I agree we should normalize relations with Cuba, but only if they truly change as I mentioned above.
Chavez has far less appeal than the prosperity that open trade with America would bring.  Raul doesn't have to be that perceptive to know this.

Chavez is much more like Fidel in his zeal for authoritarian power and socialism.  I don't think Raul is quite like that, but I could be wrong.
As long as gas prices are low Chavez' effectiveness will be diminished.  I'm worried about Chavez having another Bay of Pigs fiasco if they let Russia, or even Iran once they have their nuclear missile, to be placed on his soil.

Also there are unsubstantiated reports that there's an island in the Gulf of Mexico that Iran is training on, but I'm not sure they have that much cooperation yet.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6821|North Carolina

Harmor wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Agreed, but when you have the likes of Chavez going into Cuba and encouraging them ... its not helping.

I agree we should normalize relations with Cuba, but only if they truly change as I mentioned above.
Chavez has far less appeal than the prosperity that open trade with America would bring.  Raul doesn't have to be that perceptive to know this.

Chavez is much more like Fidel in his zeal for authoritarian power and socialism.  I don't think Raul is quite like that, but I could be wrong.
As long as gas prices are low Chavez' effectiveness will be diminished.  I'm worried about Chavez having another Bay of Pigs fiasco if they let Russia, or even Iran once they have their nuclear missile, to be placed on his soil.

Also there are unsubstantiated reports that there's an island in the Gulf of Mexico that Iran is training on, but I'm not sure they have that much cooperation yet.
I seriously doubt that Chavez would push his luck with us that much.  He's got balls, but he's not stupid.  He already pissed off a lot of the corporate world with the way he nationalized key oil assets in his country.

I think there's even less of a chance of Chavez setting something up with Iran, because, despite his friendliness with Ahmadinejad, I think he realizes that we could crush both him and Iran if we really wanted to.  Russia is a greater possibility because of how much collateral would be involved if we fought them directly.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6972
I hope things get normalised. Cuba is a great little country. You Americans are missing out bigtime.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7017|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

I hope things get normalised. Cuba is a great little country. You Americans are missing out bigtime.
Na, we've always got Miami..lol .
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Xblade-3o5-
Oi, Suzy!
+113|7169|Florida, United States

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I hope things get normalised. Cuba is a great little country. You Americans are missing out bigtime.
Na, we've always got Miami..lol .
LOL so true.

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