Arkanon
Member
+3|6954|London, UK
I'm certainly not the most experienced commander here. But my commander ranking (according to BF2Tracker) is currently 45,560 which makes it the highest ranking of all my stats.

So I've come up with a list of things I wish for when I'm presiding over a team:

  * A good team needs at least two (preferably three) squads, each containing at least four soldiers who stick together. I'll refer to these as the operational squads, because squads smaller than four men are unlikely to succeed when the commander sends them off to distant flags to fight. The operational squads are the squads that will obey orders from the commander, and the efforts of one operational squad are usually worth more than ten headless lone soldiers.

  * Only snipers and spec-ops soldiers should be in a squad of less than four men. They are special kits that can be directed to strategic points and still be useful on their own. Other kits are almost useless to a commander when they are wandering the map alone.

  * When you join a squad, view the kits of the members in that squad before choosing which kit you spawn as. For instance, there really needs to be at least one anti-tank kit in each squad. So often do I see a good squad wiped out by a single tank because they're not able to defend themselves. And if the squad has no medic, that's a real minus too. A medic or two can keep the squad going all the way to the target. You might have a preferred kit, but it's amazing how well you can do in a different kit as part of a good squad.

  * Squad leaders should never accept a commander's order if they cannot follow it, or if they have no intention of following it. It's maddening to see a squad leader accept an order and pass it on to his squad, only to then see him head in exactly the opposite direction. Turning down an order you can't handle right now is fine. The commander will give the order to someone else if available.

  * If you're the squad leader of an operational squad, feel free to ask for orders. I don't hurry to issue orders unless I see an emergency or a valuable opportunity, but if you're in a position to take on new objectives the commander will be delighted to tell you where to go. However, please don't ask for orders if you're a loner. It's too hard to manage UAVs and artillery while trying to direct six squads of one or two soldiers. If you want to be helpful, join an operational squad, or invite several more soldiers into your existing squad.

  * If you are a squad member, then spawn by your squad leader whenever possible. That's the greatest strength of the squad system, the ability to drop into combat alongside your squad leader. If you don't think much of your squad leader, then join another operational squad.

  * Whenever you create a new squad, make sure to click Manage Squad, and then invite at least five other soldiers into your squad. (Not all of them will accept the invitation. Unfortunately, it's not possible to see which soldiers are already members of other squads.) There's little point in creating a new squad and being its only member.

  * Please check the minimap when you hear that artillery is being fired. It's incredible how many times you can yell "Artillery! Your area!" and still the squads will wander right into the centre of the barrage circle.

  * Understand why the commander is so keen on you defending the team's asset base. This base contains the UAV trailer, the satellite scan, and the artillery guns. If the commander loses these, the team is blind and the enemy has a real advantage. If the team's asset base is captured, it's very important that the team recapture it. Otherwise the commander stands no chance of repairing the assets because an enemy spec-ops will spawn and C4 them within seconds. If there are two asset bases, the most valuable one is the one with easy access to the satellite and the UAV trailer. Artillery is useful, but nowhere near as useful as the overview tools.

  * Ask for supplies as soon as you need them. Unless the enemy have swamped the team's asset base and destroyed the commander assets, there are always supply crates sitting ready to be dropped. Make use of them after skirmishes that have depleted your health and ammo.

  * Don't be offended if you ask for UAV or artillery and the commander turns you down. Usually the requested asset is recharging. Also, in my experience a squad leader cannot target artillery or UAVs as well as the commander can. The commander uses a satellite scan to see a heat map of the enemy's positions so he can target artillery and drones right over built-up areas.

That's all I can recall right now. No doubt something else will spring to mind next time I'm looking down over a raging skirmish.
raz
Member
+22|6923|England, UK
You need to play more first.
Trel
Member
+70|6936
While I dont disagree, he does make very vaild points which I agree with.
Good to be back.
Agrocasey
Member
+0|6932

Arkanon wrote:

* Whenever you create a new squad, make sure to click Manage Squad, and then invite at least five other soldiers into your squad. (Not all of them will accept the invitation. Unfortunately, it's not possible to see which soldiers are already members of other squads.) There's little point in creating a new squad and being its only member.
I would really like to see this fixed in a future patch. They should only display lone wolfs, not squad members from other teams. Or at the very least, colour squad members and lone wolfs differently. It would also be good to colour people who have rejected joining your squad in a different colour, so you don't try to reinvite them.
SgtSauvage
Member
+0|6920
For someone with such little time in, he is dead on the money with his post. Furthermore, I may add that unless you are stuck with the occasional idiot as commander there are a couple things that most people do not realize. If the commander calls for repairs, and you dont give them, then dont ask for that arty/uav/supplies, cause either they are blown up or he is having to waste your supplies to fix them. Also, as much as you may not want to, following your commanders orders without question will win you the round. There is never a time in the real military that anyone below their commander is allowed to question "why" or disobey orders. The reason being that the commander gets to see the "big picture" and should not have to waste time explaining why he doesnt want you to take the spawn closest to you and wants you to move back to another.

I sure as hell wouldnt want to send a squad of 2 or 3 into a spawn point that has almost a dozen soldiers in it when I can send them to another that has 1 sniper in it. Least not without arty coming in first. Dont get me wrong, some commanders dont have a clue, and you can find that out by listening to them 1 time. I am not claiming that this "game" is just like the real world military either, but they both require strategy. We have all been in matches where no matter how good we thought we were we still got nothing short of a good old fashioned arse-whippen.... You think that was by a team full of lonewolfs?

Cheers
-Sauv
Arkanon
Member
+3|6954|London, UK
Agrocasey, I agree completely that the squad invite box should be colour coded. I just wish they'd also colour code the damned skull-and-crossbones symbols for team explosives. Red for C4, yellow for anti-tank mine, white for claymore. The number of times people have walked over a claymore because they assume it's a dropped sandwich of C4. If a soldier's combat gear was smart enough to tell him where his team had dropped explosives, surely it would be simple to have it show which type of explosive it was.

SgtSauvage, I've no doubt that following a commander's every last word has got good soldiers into bad trouble before. But I agree that a team that is following a hierarchy of command will whip the ass of a "team" that is behaving like a bunch of Quake III Arena players.

As for how much time I've had as a commander, I know it's nowhere near the time some people have pulled in. But if it helps, I did get my Staff Officer Ribbon the first time I played as commander. And I've only posted the points I really feel could help the experience be better for all. Being on a team that's fighting together is so much more satisfying than being an aimless drifter on an aimless team.
{USI}_Zombie
Member
+11|7033
Excellent post, and I agree with what you have said.  For such a short time, you have an excellent grasp of the concepts.  I wish there were more squads out there who behaved in a way that would help us commanders.
  I have a lot of commander time and on the rare rounds where the squads are working with you, it is very fun and gratifying.  Also the best feeling you can get as commander is when after the map changes, your team asks you to command again, and even tells the guy with the fast connection who got it before you did to resign so you can have it because you did such a good job.  Only happened to me 1 day, but I commanded like 8 maps in a row and we dominated.
DSRTurtle
Member
+56|6945
When you are commanding a team that plays as a team you can whip the enemy's butt really good.  When you are commanding a bunch of rambos you get your butt kicked quickly.  I love playing a game where you have 2 teams playing like teams.  They make for long lasting games and everyone usually gets a ton of points. 

As a commander, I may at times issue an order that seems odd, i.e.  Repairs needed here when your on the other side of the map.  That is because you have an engineer in your squad.  What I want is for him to respawn and repair my command assets if/when he dies or as soon as he can get there. Squads that are constantly taking flags will get the majority of arty, uav, and supplies.  I reward squads in combat with as much help as I can give.  If your in such a squad and you or your squad leader requests asset support and I deny it, you will receive it as soon as it recycles.  I will make an attempt to notify you that it will be yours when available.   

If you pilot anything, please do not be a squad leader.  You cannot, imo, lead effectively when your engaged in air to air combat, and as I see more often than not, helping the team when you don't attack the target(s) I designate. 

I expect squad(s) and squad leaders to move to the next closest enemy flag as soon as they take a flag.  Why, you ask?  Standing around waiting for orders invites the enemy arty attack which 9 out of 10 times was launched while you were taking the flag.  I may at times issue an attack/defend this position to your squad when it is our flag.  This means I see something you don't. 

Good teamwork usually results in a win.

Added

A lonewolf engineer can be good on certain maps running around repairing commander assets and other vehicles as needed.  Just use a jeep or dune buggy.  You have some defense and greater mobility. 

A commander should not be running around in combat unless your a 16 player map where that is nessecary to help win.

Last edited by DSRTurtle (2006-02-05 06:31:21)

Arkanon
Member
+3|6954|London, UK
I only realised today that I started this thread in the Special Forces forum, and it was meant for the standard Battlefield 2 forum. Is there any way of moving it myself?

About the lone engineer, you might have a point. A roaming engineer might be a valuable thing if there is a lot of vehicle action. But I think it'd be just as good if the engineer was attached to a squad so he could spawn by the vehicles. On some maps, the time it takes to leave a flag and reach the people who need you is extreme.
Agrocasey
Member
+0|6932

DSRTurtle wrote:

If you pilot anything, please do not be a squad leader.  You cannot, imo, lead effectively when your engaged in air to air combat, and as I see more often than not, helping the team when you don't attack the target(s) I designate.
I agree with you that fighter pilots should not be squad leaders, but it would be a good idea for the bomber crew to create a squad of two, or a squad of three with the fighter pilot, so you can command the bomber to hit specific targets. It also helps them to communicate better together, especially if they have VOIP. The same goes for the attack chopper crews.

I think a good setup of squads on a 64 player map would be:

- 3 squads of 6 that work as infantry, armor or transport, and these squads are the offensive squads that take the enemy flags. If going by foot, they should consist of at least 1 or 2 anti-tank, 1 or 2 medics, a support and 1 assault. If travelling as an armored convoy, 1 engineer per vehicle, at least one support, and a couple of anti-tanks, plus a medic

- 1 or 2 squads, maybe smaller (4 members) that defend key spawn points. They should consist of a couple medics, a anti-tank and a support

- A squad of 3 for the bomber and fighter. Squad leader as copilot of bomber. For maps with only fighters, such as Wake, squad of 2 for fighters. Basically have all the planes in a squad together so they can support each other.

- Depending on how many attack choppers there are, a squad of 2 for each, with the squad leader as the gunner. They should spawn as support and engineer so if the helipad is taken by the enemy, such as Kubra Dam, they can land in a quiet spot to repair and resupply.

- A squad of 2 consisting of special ops and support to destroy enemy commander equipment. Also once they have destroyed the equipment, have them spot enemy planes and helicopters as they leave the spawn point, and plant c4 on the transport choppers so when they are fully loaded and have taken off, they can get a lot of kills.

- 1 or 2 single man squads as snipers that stay on the edge of the fighting taking out enemy infantry. Also a single squad consisting of an engineer to guard and repair your commander equipment, although this would only be necessary if the enemy has already hit your equipment.

This setup is only my opinion of what an optimal setup of squads should be, if you have any suggestions on improvements, please feel free to comment.
kaptainflam
Member
+2|6973
Great post Arkanon !
I profit of this thread with Good Commanders feedback to ask some questions:

1- When you deselect some kits at the bottom of the Commander screen and send an order to this kit, for example SpecOps, It's only all SpecOps, only the specific SpecOps you targeted with the mouse or everybody see the message in the chat ticker ? I hope to be clear because english is not my natural language :-)

2- Do you use Split Squad often ? because I find this option interesting but never used... Do you think that SL will split his group ?

3- How do you cancel an order send to a squad ?

Anyway, I like commanding, I find that's the way BF2 must be played.
Have fun !
KF.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6924|NT, like Mick Dundee

Arkanon wrote:

About the lone engineer, you might have a point. A roaming engineer might be a valuable thing if there is a lot of vehicle action.
I like to play as this lone engineer, although I make a sqaud of dedicated vehicle whores and we do it like that, six engineers with two tanks... a really good combination IMO. I dont play as commander because I'm no good at it (tend to focus on one squad) but I'll keep all comments posted here in mind. Thanks for the tips on how to be of more use to my commander (best games come from good squads and good commanders).

Oh, and don't blame me for the Lone Wolf hours in my profile; friggin servers I play on have a limited no. of sqaud spots...
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
DSRTurtle
Member
+56|6945

kaptainflam wrote:

Great post Arkanon !
I profit of this thread with Good Commanders feedback to ask some questions:

1- When you deselect some kits at the bottom of the Commander screen and send an order to this kit, for example SpecOps, It's only all SpecOps, only the specific SpecOps you targeted with the mouse or everybody see the message in the chat ticker ? I hope to be clear because english is not my natural language :-)

2- Do you use Split Squad often ? because I find this option interesting but never used... Do you think that SL will split his group ?

3- How do you cancel an order send to a squad ?

Anyway, I like commanding, I find that's the way BF2 must be played.
Have fun !
KF.
My answers to your questions/comments:

1.  I don't believe so.  I believe that the squadleader only sees the order/request.

2.  Sometimes.  If I have a squad of 6 on a 16 player map or in a larger server with only a small number of players.  It can be very useful for team players to understand that sometimes 2 smaller squads can be more effective than 1 large squad.

3.  I usually change the order with another order.  I find myself sometimes issuing an attack/defend this position to the wrong squad.  What I do then, is change their order to a location/area closer to them, then issue the original order to the correct squad.  Circumstances taken into account. 

Am I the best commander?  No, however I try to help the squads as best as I can.  These are the team players.  The only way to win is to play as a team.  There for they get the majority of commander asset support. 

VOIP is a great tool.  You can explain orders more clearly.  You can give more details or offer suggestions.  However, there are reasons people don't use VOIP.  Problems with the Mic.  Younger kids playing who don't have it enabled by parents rules, etc.   Any number of other reasons.  As I have mic issues, I don't use it.  I let the squads figure out how to best acheive what ever order/task I have given them.
DSRTurtle
Member
+56|6945

Arkanon wrote:

I only realised today that I started this thread in the Special Forces forum, and it was meant for the standard Battlefield 2 forum. Is there any way of moving it myself?

About the lone engineer, you might have a point. A roaming engineer might be a valuable thing if there is a lot of vehicle action. But I think it'd be just as good if the engineer was attached to a squad so he could spawn by the vehicles. On some maps, the time it takes to leave a flag and reach the people who need you is extreme.
It all depends on the map and number of players in that server.  I usually create open squads myself, but under custom names rather than the miltiary alphabet names.  This allows anyone looking at the squad list to see that I have a specialty squad.  Engineer/Sniper/Spec OPs/etc. 

I was using the lonewolf eng squad as an example of how to be a team player while still being a lonewolf.  You have the option of locking the squad.  A good commander will look to see what you have in your squad before issuing orders like attack a position defended by 3 or 4 guys when your the only one in your squad.  It does happen, and I am occassionally guilty of such foolishness myself.   

I agree with you about inviting people to join your squad.  The manage squad list should either include only lonewolves or be color coded blue for lonewolves, green for people in a squad and red for commander.  There is nothing more frustrating than to be in a squad and get an inivite to join another squad.  However, there have been times when I looked to see who invited me to join a squad that I have actually switched squads because of the members in that squad.
kaptainflam
Member
+2|6973
Hello DSRTurtle
thank you for your feedback,
about VOIP:

VOIP is a great tool.  You can explain orders more clearly.  You can give more details or offer suggestions.  However, there are reasons people don't use VOIP.  Problems with the Mic.  Younger kids playing who don't have it enabled by parents rules, etc.   Any number of other reasons.  As I have mic issues, I don't use it.  I let the squads figure out how to best acheive what ever order/task I have given them.
because not native english, I prefer to suggest more than talking, I set an UAV where I want the squad is going to, I put a supply on the path and I clear the zone before with an arty, normaly the SL understand why I ask him to get that flag and not another. Once a time a SL sees that you take care of him, a trusty relationship is easier.
Only thing I type in the chat is to announce to the team, that a chopper, a tank, whatever is available at main base, and it would be better used by someone ! ;-)
Cheers.
KF
[BSG]DirtyHarry
Member
+0|6938|France
Hey Laydies,

Some comment's from a "expert" commander... being ranked around 1'500  as commander....

The key of being a successfull commander is, to get your team feeling, what you want, where you want to attack and where you want to build defense.

Then, this game is all about fire and movement. This means, mechanised forces using the long range fire power, having infantry underrunning enemy positions, while the big guns pin down the battle field. Then, the over all key, is that the team is understanding that the arty is so powerfull, place in the right moment at the right place, it can turn a game! I turned many games with at helpless position of 150 to 250 against my team, while entering in the game... just with getting the team the feeling, that I put arty on place, where I can blast out as many enemys as possible. Then, if the team feels, that the commander puts this tool on very important places, a teamkill cause by arty, is not so blamed as the kiddy noobs are blaming around.

Of course, if the team is not willing to do a team work.... nothing helps.... only arty on my position.... ;-))))
RedHot
Member
+9|6989
A solo soldier is useless unless specop or sniper? Dont you think thats kind of an ignorant thing to say... i can easily hop in a jeep as assault and take 2-3 flags by myself on a city map, especially one like karkand where everyone is usually screwing around up front trying to get huge points by spamming nades, ammo, health etc etc....

Some of what you say is true, and well.. just obvious to anyone that has played more than a week of bf2. But  I think you need to play a little more before you generalize the whole game. :S
[BSG]DirtyHarry
Member
+0|6938|France
Hmmm.... you referre to Arkanon? Of course... he needs some more hours to get experience.

;-)
OpsChief
Member
+101|6935|Southern California
Good discussion

lol  don't be so quick to judge someone's ideas based on their BF2 scores or hours played - they may have knowledge, life experience and skills that qualify them to comment from the "real world".
R.Rabshaw
Member
+1|6938
I honestly wonder if anyone ever thinks, "Hm, I really want to go do this, but the commander wants me to go do something else. I better do what the commander says."
DSRTurtle
Member
+56|6945

R.Rabshaw wrote:

I honestly wonder if anyone ever thinks, "Hm, I really want to go do this, but the commander wants me to go do something else. I better do what the commander says."
That does happen occassionally.  Like an enemy flag on my way to the objective he has given me.  It makes sense to me to grab that one on the way.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  Both Commanders and Squad Leaders should use some common sense in allowing tactical flexibility in missions and orders.
Arkanon
Member
+3|6954|London, UK
R.Rabshaw is right. Most people do resent being given orders by the commander. Which is why I tend to save orders for emergencies. (I still get ignored, but at least I've tried to get a squad to defend the asset base.)
DSRTurtle
Member
+56|6945

Agrocasey wrote:

I agree with you that fighter pilots should not be squad leaders, but it would be a good idea for the bomber crew to create a squad of two, or a squad of three with the fighter pilot, so you can command the bomber to hit specific targets. It also helps them to communicate better together, especially if they have VOIP. The same goes for the attack chopper crews.
That is a good suggestion.  I would also consider adding the attack chopper into the mix.  2 Jets and the attack chopper make for quick killing machines and some good defensive weapons.  If such a squad is under my command, then I wouldn't be issuing orders to that squad unless it's for defense of a key flag. 

The only issue I have with that is that you can't spawn on the squad leader.  In some maps being able to spawn away from the flag can be very useful.
RedHot
Member
+9|6989
The only time I even acknowledge a commander is if he proves himself first. If he has the UAV in all the right places, he's dropping supplies and spotting the enemies of interest that dont fall under UAV (ie. those on flags, tanks, helos' etc) then i will start to listen to him. What really gets my attention is when a commander actually uses the VOIP and is giving us squad leaders the heads up on movement of tanks, what flags are about to be capped. A good commander is worth his weight in gold but if he's not showing me he's any good i will most likely ignore his commands and do what i think will help the team most.

Last edited by RedHot (2006-02-07 00:10:14)

DSRTurtle
Member
+56|6945

RedHot wrote:

The only time I even acknowledge a commander is if he proves himself first. If he has the UAV in all the right places, he's dropping supplies and spotting the enemies of interest that dont fall under UAV (ie. those on flags, tanks, helos' etc) then i will start to listen to him. What really gets my attention is when a commander actually uses the VOIP and is giving us squad leaders the heads up on movement of tanks, what flags are about to be capped. A good commander is worth his weight in gold but if he's not showing me he's any good i will most likely ignore his commands and do what i think will help the team most.
VOIP is a TOOL to help the team.  NOT EVERYONE can use it.  So remember that before saying someone is a bad commander because they don't use it.

Even on a larger map the commander is busy with uav scans and spotting, dropping supplies and arty, issuing orders to other squads.  He has so much going on that sometimes it is impossible to give anything other than an attack/defend this position order.  Not every person has VOIP on for various reasons.  Just because a Commander doesn't use VOIP doesn't make them a bad commander.  I have played with teams that followed 95% of my orders and we have kicked the enemy's butt.  I have also played on teams where they followed 95% of my orders and we have lost, but not by much.  I don't worry about the 5% because Squad Leaders at times might see something that I don't.  They are on the ground up front. 

Yesterday I played on commander on a team that had no sense of teamwork.  I actually got so mad at them that I resigned and then did what I wanted.  We got our butts waxed 250 - 0.  All 3 stars went to guys on the other team.  I would say that they worked together both as a squad and as a team and followed their commander's orders.  I don't mind losing a close game regardless of if I'm a commander or not.  I hate getting my butt waxed because of everyone trying to be Rambo. 

It's not the amount of orders or types of orders.  It's the timing of orders that make sense without explanation and timely support of the commander's toys that make the difference between a good commander and bad commander. 

Do I make mistakes?  Absolutely.  Do other commanders make mistakes?  Most likely, I don't know of any commander who has a perfect win/loss record as commander.  I try to learn how to be a better commander from my losses.  Those are where you learn the most.

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