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2009-08-01 12:01:48
Spidery_Yoda
Member
+399|6516
I'm not exactly sure what's going on here. Will it be changes just to competitive gameplay or will it filter down to us all?

Anyway there was a thread on the Steam Forums about this called 'Comp players testing new TF2 beta?' and nobody was sure if it was real or not until 'Team Fortress 2 beta' started appearing in people's games lists.
Here's the quote from the thread. Try and ignore the spelling errors.

Some of you might have noticed players in your friendslist, playing a game called “Team Fortress 2 Beta”. A small group of top-teams from europe and the USA have been asked to join this new project.

euro teams: Afterlife, Crack Clan, Dignitas, FakkelBrigade, I Don’t Know, Rockit, Vale!, Team CoolerMaster

The project headed up by our great friend Robin Walker. The aim of this project is to get the competetive community to help fine-tune TF2 for competetive 6v6 play. We’re still at an early stage, nothing new has been introduced on the beta-client yet but the forums are up and discussions are already ongoing.

The first stage of the beta, as explained to us by Robin Walker. Will be to re-shape the sandman for future use in competetive TF2. This means we’ll be playing part of our normal pcw-routine on the beta-client, behaving as we normally would. We all hope we can make TF2 an even better experience with this brilliant project!

I’d like to thank Robin Walker and Valve again for spending so much time and effort on us <3
It sounds to me that it will just affect comp play but hopefully whatever changes they make (ie to  the Sandman) will be put in the rest of the game too.

The blotter thing has also reported people in it getting the Vanguard Party Heavy achievement, so does that imply that they're testing some sort of Heavy changes as well as the Sandman? Lets hope so.

Rumoured Changes


- Sandman: Double Jump is back, lowers max health to 100, some unspecified stun tweaks
- Force-A-Nature: Some tweaks and fixes. The guy hasn't said what, though.
- New Heavy Gloves: Experimental unlock. Run at pyro speed when wielded (ala CS knife), but no damage increase.
- The Heavy has less cone spread but also less damage; the extent of this tweak currently seems unclear.
- New Wrench: Experimental unlock. Really fast building, but can't upgrade.
- Spy Fire Suit: Experimental unlock. LOTS (90%?) less damage (will probably get changed) from direct flamethrower fire, but replaces revolver.
Source. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for more rumoured changes. I guess the stun mechanic is going to be unchanged. So now you have to decide between being able to stun people and being able to survive a single rocket. Hmm that's not a bad tradeoff, I may actually use it like that.

Last edited by Spidery_Yoda (2009-08-03 03:05:08)

2009-08-01 14:29:49
Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|6989|Reality
I guess they lost sight of the casual gamers which are the vast majority of their clientele. Nothing needs to be changed.
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
2009-08-01 14:41:05
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6714
Valve does have the final say on these changes, however catering to the competitive players is usually a very bad thing, as they are more concerned with how much "skill" a game takes than how actually fun it is.

Not only that but something can be overpowered in the right hand yet very weak with someone who isn't very good. Case in point; the sniper rifles. A mediocre weapon for an average player yet for someone who is any good with it, the damn thing will ruin your day.

Last edited by Doctor Strangelove (2009-08-01 14:42:24)

2009-08-01 18:16:06
Bevo
Nah
+718|6767|Austin, Texas
Good on them, honestly. I mostly play medic, demo and soldier in pubs because my success is largely determined by my own actions rather than my teams'. Heavy, spy, pyro.. they all rely too much on your teams' or the other teams' performance.
2009-08-01 18:26:49
Spidery_Yoda
Member
+399|6516

Stubbee wrote:

I guess they lost sight of the casual gamers which are the vast majority of their clientele. Nothing needs to be changed.

Doctor Strangelove wrote:

Valve does have the final say on these changes, however catering to the competitive players is usually a very bad thing, as they are more concerned with how much "skill" a game takes than how actually fun it is.
I disagree with both of you. Firstly Stubbee, Valve haven't lost sight of anything. These have been reported as changes to competitive play and nothing more so far. And secondly, I don't agree that catering to comp players is a bad thing at all. Sure, the game they're playing is nearly a different game altogether, but their level of play is a good way to settle balance, and then that same balance will slowly trickle down into regular play and everyone is happy. Weapons designed with pub gameplay in mind have mostly turned out absolutely awful (Natascha, Bonk, Sandman), or plain irritating (FaN, Huntsman). I think that if they design weapons for the higher up levels of play in mind then it'll be better for everyone. When it comes to the Soldier especially, I hope they give him some decent weapon unlocks instead of spammy, gimmicky, noob items (like the Scout got). Getting the comp players in on it is a great way to achieve that goal.

I know i'm exaggerating slightly but i'm just trying to get my point across. Most unlocks they've released so far have been disappointments to say the least.
2009-08-01 20:24:51
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6714
But all the unlocks were designed for public play, fuck the whole damn game was.

I mean, the huntsman is 9001 times less annoying than the sniper rifle, as the huntsman it's possible for you to dodge the damn thing while the sniper rifle is just an instant, uncounterable kill shot. And the FaN is only irritating since the damage got buffed up, originally it wasn't any better than the Scatter-gun.

All the class (save sniper) have extremely low skill ciellings. Pyro gets a ton of undeserved scorn for being "W+M1 class", while all the classes are just W+M1. Demoman spams nades, no skill there. Soldier spams rockets, no skill there. Medic stands behind people. Engineer stands behind robots. Scout runs and dies. Spy stands behind people. So much skill in that.

The only class that takes "skill" is the sniper, and look what that got us. A class whose only real counter is a better player of the same class. He sits behind his allies, getting instant kills. The only way to stop him is by getting a spy behind enemy lines but that can be difficult. Sniper is the only class without a skill ceilling and he's the only class that can ruin the game. I'm glad there are huntsman snipers, you can dodge and reflect the arrows. Who cares if the hitbox for the huntsman is bigger, it can't kill any class with full health in a body shot, and headshots require allot of leading and arcing, and even then an over-healed Heavy can still live through them. Not only that but any level of erratic movement can nullify the usefulness of the huntsman. On the other hand the rifle can't be avoided by doing anything, bouncy scouts are headshotted all the time, and the damn thing can take down a Pyro with a body shot.

Valve has balanced TF2 for the average public server player. Not the little kid who doesn't know shit about the game, nor the wastoid who spends 30 hours a week playing it. But the average player who wants to just go into a server and have fun. Look at the other competitive FPS games, they all suck. None of them are fun, you're either beaten down by the people on the other team who are better than you, or you're too good and the game is boring. In TF2 no matter how bad you are you can still be useful, and no matter how good you are you can't pull the entire team.

I'm not saying that TF2 has prefect balance. They should make the sandman's stun work differently, the FaN is currently OP (though it had been fine) but it's impossible to keep a game perfectly balanced the philosophy behind the balancing has made it the most fun for the most people. The game is two years old and it's still the game I play the most and have the most fun playing.
2009-08-02 04:03:25
Spidery_Yoda
Member
+399|6516

Doctor Strangelove wrote:

But all the unlocks were designed for public play, fuck the whole damn game was.

I mean, the huntsman is 9001 times less annoying than the sniper rifle, as the huntsman it's possible for you to dodge the damn thing while the sniper rifle is just an instant, uncounterable kill shot. And the FaN is only irritating since the damage got buffed up, originally it wasn't any better than the Scatter-gun.

All the class (save sniper) have extremely low skill ciellings. Pyro gets a ton of undeserved scorn for being "W+M1 class", while all the classes are just W+M1. Demoman spams nades, no skill there. Soldier spams rockets, no skill there. Medic stands behind people. Engineer stands behind robots. Scout runs and dies. Spy stands behind people. So much skill in that.

The only class that takes "skill" is the sniper, and look what that got us. A class whose only real counter is a better player of the same class. He sits behind his allies, getting instant kills. The only way to stop him is by getting a spy behind enemy lines but that can be difficult. Sniper is the only class without a skill ceilling and he's the only class that can ruin the game. I'm glad there are huntsman snipers, you can dodge and reflect the arrows. Who cares if the hitbox for the huntsman is bigger, it can't kill any class with full health in a body shot, and headshots require allot of leading and arcing, and even then an over-healed Heavy can still live through them. Not only that but any level of erratic movement can nullify the usefulness of the huntsman. On the other hand the rifle can't be avoided by doing anything, bouncy scouts are headshotted all the time, and the damn thing can take down a Pyro with a body shot.

Valve has balanced TF2 for the average public server player. Not the little kid who doesn't know shit about the game, nor the wastoid who spends 30 hours a week playing it. But the average player who wants to just go into a server and have fun. Look at the other competitive FPS games, they all suck. None of them are fun, you're either beaten down by the people on the other team who are better than you, or you're too good and the game is boring. In TF2 no matter how bad you are you can still be useful, and no matter how good you are you can't pull the entire team.

I'm not saying that TF2 has prefect balance. They should make the sandman's stun work differently, the FaN is currently OP (though it had been fine) but it's impossible to keep a game perfectly balanced the philosophy behind the balancing has made it the most fun for the most people. The game is two years old and it's still the game I play the most and have the most fun playing.
I agree with a lot of what you said. The Sniper Rifle basically had an infinite skill ceiling, and playing against a godly Sniper was basically game-ruining. The only way to deal with them was to avoid them. I do take issue with your 'all classes have low skill ceilings' thing though. The Soldier, Scout and Demoman all have very high skill ceilings. In fact people often complain that a good Scout can decimate anybody 1 on 1, which is very true, and the difference between a good Soldier/Demoman and a bad/average Soldier/Demoman is massive. So don't say there's no skill involved in those classes because there really is.

A guy on the Steam Forums was able to put how I feel better than I can. In the OP I kept saying it was a good thing, and this is basically why:

Blindjonn wrote:

I am entirely happy with Comp players having access to the beta. Playtesters who are really anal about finding the most effective classes and team setup are naturally going to be able to isolate the key flaws with the alternatives.
If anything has real issues (*cough* Sandman *cough*) then they will very quickly identify it. This guy has good points too.

Last edited by Spidery_Yoda (2009-08-02 04:06:56)

2009-08-02 04:33:07
d4rkph03n1x
Member
+131|6995

It should be interesting to see how this competitive beta pans out.
2009-08-02 06:16:48
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6768|...

Anything that balances out the game seems like it would be good for all players.

Seems like if you are a competitive player, why not be competitive with whats already there and not a different version of the game?

Are there really any strengths of any single class the game that teamwork can't overcome?
2009-08-02 08:20:39
Bevo
Nah
+718|6767|Austin, Texas
I'd like to re-iterate that this is a good thing. Having all 9 classes (or even 6-7) on a more even playing field in competitive play means

a) Competitive play becomes more exciting (Instead of 2x solly, demo, medic, 2x scout every time)
b) Pubs shift towards a different playstyle, hopefully a better one
c) Pubstars (like yours truly) will be able to expand on their class selection in a more crowded environment and still produce results

I honestly only really play sniper, soldier, demo, medic, and scout. Engineers are too dependent on the other team being un-coordinated (though ninja level 1 sentries bring lols), Heavies get thrown around by soldiers, demos, spies, scouts and snipers. Even a single competent one of those classes on the other team makes playing heavy a pain. Spy is fun but again limited by the other teams' stupidity. Pyro is occasionally fun too but you get wrecked by scouts, heavies, and sentries and there's not much you can do about it.
2009-08-02 12:55:22
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6714

Spidery_Yoda wrote:

. The Soldier, Scout and Demoman all have very high skill ceilings. In fact people often complain that a good Scout can decimate anybody 1 on 1, which is very true, and the difference between a good Soldier/Demoman and a bad/average Soldier/Demoman is massive. So don't say there's no skill involved in those classes because there really is.
Well the point was supposed to be more about how you can be a new player and still be useful as those classes, and you also can't pull the team even if you are god-like as them. There is skill in all of the classes in TF2, however they all work in such a way that one player's skill isn't going to help or hinder the team by a massive amount. Skill will win you a 1v1 fight but TF2 is not about 1v1 fights.
2009-08-02 15:08:15
Spidery_Yoda
Member
+399|6516
Ah I see what you mean. The entry skill level for all classes is low. Yeah.

Added a small changelog to the OP which is from a post someone in the beta made on the SA forums. So it's all extremely unconfirmed but there we are. It's being said so i'm posting it .

Rumoured Changes


- Sandman: Double Jump is back, lowers max health to 100, some unspecified stun tweaks
- Force-A-Nature: Some tweaks and fixes. The guy hasn't said what, though.
- New Heavy Gloves: Experimental unlock. Run at pyro speed when wielded (ala CS knife), but no damage increase.
- New Wrench: Experimental unlock. Really fast building, but can't upgrade.
- Spy Fire Suit: Experimental unlock. LOTS (90%?) less damage (will probably get changed) from direct flamethrower fire, but replaces revolver.
So, thoughts on these?

My thoughts:

-Sandman. Hmm. It's quite the trade-off. I never use it currently because I really really hate not being able to double jump.
-FaN. Nothing to say as nothings been reported.
-Heavy Gloves. I don't understand what 'no damage increase' is meant to mean. Do any other gloves increase damage? No. What's the trade-off?
-Wrench. What can I say, I love it. Ninja Lvl 1 sentries are so much fun.
-Spy Suit. I don't like this really. It's another weapon designed to counter 1 class and 1 weapon, a la Razorback. If you still get ignited you're still going to die anyway so what's the point? Plus with no revolver how are you supposed to fight back against the Pyro? Facestabs? Hmm actually if the damage decrease is as bad as 90% then maybe you could kill the pyro with a bunch of knife swipes.

Last edited by Spidery_Yoda (2009-08-02 15:15:18)

2009-08-02 16:15:14
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6714
I like the Sandman idea. I'm open to stuns but I feel the Sandman's stun was implemented poorly, it should have caused people to still move (although slowly) and lose a large amount of control over the direction they are looking in. This makes it possible to stagger to saftey and possibly retaliate without making stunning useless.

FaN just needs a straight up damage decrease. The original FaN was perfectly fine, it was a down-grade for people who weren't good with it but an up grade for those who were. Now it's a straight up up-grade.

Spy thing sounds lame.

The new wrench sounds useful. However instead of it not being able to upgrade, maybe it could take more metal to upgrade.

Also the fuck is wrong with Heavy's melee? I get kills with the fists all the time.
2009-08-02 16:22:12
Bevo
Nah
+718|6767|Austin, Texas

Doctor Strangelove wrote:

Also the fuck is wrong with Heavy's melee? I get kills with the fists all the time.
I don't think there was anything wrong with the melee itself, instead they're looking for ways to make him less of a walking bullseye and more of a giant minigun wielding monster. The melee walking speed increase is simply a way to pursue it. I agree too, success as a heavy is largely determined by the enemy team.
2009-08-02 16:33:37
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6714
Meh, I think that the post Yoda quoted was just a misrepresentation of the effects of it. It probably meant to say that the HWG's melee has a lower damage-per-second than the fists, but lets him sprint.
2009-08-03 02:55:54
Peter
Super Awesome Member
+494|6648|dm_maidenhead
Interesting. I hope when this is released it will be a server option so we get to play it and it isn't just used in leagues. I would be interested as to what it's like.
2009-08-03 03:03:16
Spidery_Yoda
Member
+399|6516
I've updated the OP with a new tidbit of information about changes in the beta:

- The heavy has less cone spread but also less damage; the extent of this tweak currently seems unclear.
I guess it's to make the Heavy better at medium range? Wouldn't that change make him much worse at close range though?

Last edited by Spidery_Yoda (2009-08-03 03:04:39)

2009-08-03 09:27:27
Fat_Swinub
jaff
+125|6681
I will reinstall TF2 if that heavy glove change happens because a 300HP shotgun man who can run at pyro speed owns
2009-08-03 09:33:08
Lucien
Fantasma Parastasie
+1,451|6899
oh boy, doctor strangelove posting about skill once again. "Demoman spams nades, no skill there. Soldier spams rockets, no skill there." Because if you're not good at it, it must simply not exist, right?
https://i.imgur.com/HTmoH.jpg
2009-08-03 11:49:14
DefCon-17
Maple Syrup Faggot
+362|6402|Vancouver | Canada
Whoever came up with the "Remove Revolver idea" must have a grand total of 5 hours as a Spy.
2009-08-03 12:49:35
Tetn1s
Member
+59|6888|Los Angeles
I thought this up just now, wonder what people think:

Maybe once your hit by sandman ball, your A and D keys get reversed for how far you hit them from.

Your still in control if your ready for it, but if your not ready for it, it can affect you.

It gives people a chance to fight against the scout if you get hit, but still affects them somehow.
2009-08-03 14:49:52
Spidery_Yoda
Member
+399|6516
The problem with that is for Pyros and Heavys the stun will basically do nothing at all, making it worthless against them. Which  I wouldn't mind in the case of the Heavy, he's a much much too easy target for it. But an un-stunnable Pyro would be unfair on the other light classes.

Last edited by Spidery_Yoda (2009-08-03 14:50:14)

2009-08-03 15:56:47
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6714

Spidery_Yoda wrote:

The problem with that is for Pyros and Heavys the stun will basically do nothing at all, making it worthless against them. Which  I wouldn't mind in the case of the Heavy, he's a much much too easy target for it. But an un-stunnable Pyro would be unfair on the other light classes.
Maybe invert the aiming controls as well then, as well as the forward/backward controls.
2009-08-03 16:01:07
Fat_Swinub
jaff
+125|6681
Team Fortress 2 Changelog:

Updates to Team Fortress 2 have been released. The updates will be applied automatically when your Steam client is restarted. The specific changes include:
  • Sandman now makes players drunk
2009-08-06 05:40:41
Spidery_Yoda
Member
+399|6516
There's a whole bunch of stuff here that's been reported. Enjoy:

All Classes

    * [confirmed] There is now a menu option that will reload all clip-based weapons when enabled - however, this feature currently is in the testing phase and may get tweaks.


Heavy

    * [confirmed] The heavy appears to have gotten a KGB replacement of sorts that makes him go around pyro speed when their out. This would explain the "vanguard party" achievements that were popping up earlier.
    * [confirmed] The heavy's minigun cone has been tightened; however there is no confirmation whether this change will remain permanent.
    * [confirmed] There are going to be changes to the sandvich. However, these changes are still mostly in the planning phase.



Medic

    * [confirmed] There are improved particles to show when players are using Kritzkreig more easily.


Pyro
Scout

    * [confirmed] As of the moment the Sandman reduces the scout's health to 95 and returns his double jump. There are planned changes to the stun mechanic, but none have been implemented yet.
    * [confirmed] FaN knockback has been adjusted significantly; it now knocks back targets based on damage and distance.
    * [confirmed] Pistol scripts will apparently no longer work. The pistol fires every 0.175 seconds at its maximum rate as opposed to .1 seconds
    * [confirmed] Pistol now fires at the rate of 1 shot per 0.175 seconds while holding down attack button (used to be 0.25 seconds)


Sniper

Engineer

    * [confirmed] The engineer is receiving a wrench that allows him to build his buildings faster. It does not allow him to upgrade them and repairs them at the same rate as before, however.


Demoman

    * [unconfirmed] There are some proposed changes to the demoman and soldier's self-damage; however no specifics are available as of yet.


Soldier

    * [unconfirmed] There are some proposed changes to the demoman and soldier's self-damage; however no specifics are available as of yet.


Spy

    * [confirmed] The spy is apparently getting not one, but two suits. However, it is currently unsure if both suits or just one will make it past the beta.
    * [confirmed] The first suit is as heard of before, giving the spy 90% damage reduction from flames and takes the place of his revolver.
    * [confirmed] The second suit is also geared against pyros, but its effects and abilities are currently unclear.
I've highlighted the most interesting parts. It looks like some big changes are headed our way. I'm glad we're going to get a huge balance patch (assuming we're getting this stuff). It's been getting more and more necessary for one after all the unlocks.

Also it looks more and more that it isn't a competitive beta at all, which it was originally suggested to be, but a closed beta for the whole game which is just being tested by the competitive people.

Last edited by Spidery_Yoda (2009-08-06 06:08:52)

 

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