Bush never had a fixed definition of victory either BTW.lowing wrote:
You are right, yet another problem of PC. I say state your business and get on with it.Dilbert_X wrote:
Victory has not yet been defined.lowing wrote:
Or have you not noticed, when speaking of Afghanistan, Obama never mentions the words win or victory. Only time lines.
you are correct there as wellDilbert_X wrote:
Bush never had a fixed definition of victory either BTW.lowing wrote:
You are right, yet another problem of PC. I say state your business and get on with it.Dilbert_X wrote:
Victory has not yet been defined.
nope, kill them and their families if they support terrorism. No PC, which is the point, all out war, no binds.AussieReaper wrote:
Some people are harboring terrorists. You can either kill them, and radicalise their families, or win over their support and that of tribal leaders.lowing wrote:
Are "the people" harboring terrorists? Are "the people" taking up arms against the US? or is the govt doing it?
We had a no holds barred action against many countries and govts. without including "ALL Germans" and "ALL Japanese" as targets of our agression. As a matter of fact, did our war against Hitler turn "ALL GERMANS" against us?
If "moderate Muslims" were indeed "moderate" they would join the fight on our side. As it is, you are afraid this fight will anger them into joining terrorist groups, ( which they probably will) and STILL see a need to ask the question, what is wrong with Islam, it is the same as any other religion? Well now you have your fuckin' answer.
Some people have taken up arms against the US, those should be dealt with as enemy combatants. Some, on the other hand, have taken up arms against the terrorists and joined the police force and Afghan army. The government is not funding terrorists, or harbouring them.
You did declare war on Germany and Japan. Not on the standing armies. Not on the airforces. The war was declared on the country, population and government. The war on "terrorism" does not have country or population you can target. And the governments of these terror groups are not in power in Afghanistan.
I want to target the extremists families if they turn extremist, and you know that is what I said, stop being a pain in the ass.AussieReaper wrote:
You want to not only target the extremists but the extremists' families.
I think your concept of how to fight this war is far more dangerous.
Sorry, you are backing into PC territory again. If terrorists know they have a place to hide, then that hiding place gets blown the fuck up.AussieReaper wrote:
You don't have to be an extremist to harbour these terrorists. Most of the villagers follow whatever orders the tribal elders give them anyway.
I think it would be better to turn that around, rather than carpet bomb a village as a lesson to the neighbouring village. They just become martyrs for the cause.
Then maybe they people in question should think about joining the fight AGAINST terrorism and the fight AGAINST those that supposedly hijacked their religion. But they won't, and yet again the reason why Islam is fucked up and dangerous. Stop ignoring that point.AussieReaper wrote:
Forget about the civilians. Forget about the reprisals from the rest of the population. Forget the relatives who will now turn to thoughts of revenge.
You're doing nothing to break the cycle. Doing the "blow the fuck outta everything" approach is just going to create more terrorists.
Last edited by lowing (2009-12-29 22:53:45)
i smell narrow-mindedness and ignorance hereTurquoise wrote:
CulturallyCommie Killer wrote:
Useless in what respect?Turquoise wrote:
Afghan Army Afghanistan is useless
shouldn't be too hard, you have obviously, successfully resisted the urge to make any sort of real argument against his post.cl4u53w1t2 wrote:
i smell narrow-mindedness and ignorance hereTurquoise wrote:
CulturallyCommie Killer wrote:
Useless in what respect?
must... resist... the... urge... to... make... a... joke... about... american... "culture"...
Some fertile farmland, trick is getting the population to produce something besides opium though.Turquoise wrote:
Culturally and resource-wise.Commie Killer wrote:
Useless in what respect?Turquoise wrote:
Afghan Army Afghanistan is useless
Aint gonna happen. Their families are on the line of fire, if they'll try to fight terrorists they'll come to their home village kill every civilian there. Price for fighting terrorism is too big for regular afghani. You may say that there are already some that are "fighting" against terrorists. Imo they are only creating visibility that they are "fighting".lowing wrote:
Then maybe they people in question should think about joining the fight AGAINST terrorism and the fight AGAINST those that supposedly hijacked their religion. But they won't, and yet again the reason why Islam is fucked up and dangerous. Stop ignoring that point.
The cycle needs to be broken within the peace loving religion of Islam
Better to die fighting on our feet than to die on our knees. Although I have more faith in the US military than I did the Soviet military.Commie Killer wrote:
Lowing, you realize you are suggesting virtually the exact same strategy that failed for the soviets.
Last edited by lowing (2009-12-30 08:15:45)
It would seem the Koran is far more extremist than it is peacefulLongbow wrote:
Aint gonna happen. Their families are on the line of fire, if they'll try to fight terrorists they'll come to their home village kill every civilian there. Price for fighting terrorism is too big for regular afghani. You may say that there are already some that are "fighting" against terrorists. Imo they are only creating visibility that they are "fighting".lowing wrote:
Then maybe they people in question should think about joining the fight AGAINST terrorism and the fight AGAINST those that supposedly hijacked their religion. But they won't, and yet again the reason why Islam is fucked up and dangerous. Stop ignoring that point.
The cycle needs to be broken within the peace loving religion of Islam
Islam is fine, the reason you think it's fucked is because radical islamists convert quran for their own needs, obviously dropping most important parts so that they can successfully brainwash islamic youth.
come on, how can one seriously think afghanistan is culturally useless??!! that's pure stupidity by a citizen of a culturally useless country (except for some good movies)lowing wrote:
shouldn't be too hard, you have obviously, successfully resisted the urge to make any sort of real argument against his post.cl4u53w1t2 wrote:
i smell narrow-mindedness and ignorance hereTurquoise wrote:
Culturally
must... resist... the... urge... to... make... a... joke... about... american... "culture"...
Explain how it is actually useful in any meaningful sense. Historically, Afghanistan has been little more than where empires die. Powerful countries continually make the mistake of coming to this hellhole without gaining much of anything.cl4u53w1t2 wrote:
i smell narrow-mindedness and ignorance hereTurquoise wrote:
CulturallyCommie Killer wrote:
Useless in what respect?
must... resist... the... urge... to... make... a... joke... about... american... "culture"...
Most of Afghanistan is only arable for the most resilient crops. The harsh climate and relatively barren soil of Afghanistan combine to make it difficult to grow much of anything. Now, admittedly, with enough effort, farming can be pushed in a less destructive direction, but this requires first gaining control of the contested areas.Commie Killer wrote:
Some fertile farmland, trick is getting the population to produce something besides opium though.Turquoise wrote:
Culturally and resource-wise.Commie Killer wrote:
Useless in what respect?
Afghanistan is endowed with a wealth of natural resources, including extensive deposits of natural gas, petroleum, coal, marble, gold, copper, chromite, talc, barites, sulfur, lead, zinc, iron ore, salt, precious and semi-precious stones. In 2006, the U.S. Geological Survey estimated that Afghanistan has as much as 36 trillion cubic feet (1.0×10^12 m3) of natural gas, 3.6 billion barrels (570×10^6 m3) of oil and condensate reserves.Turquoise wrote:
Explain how it is actually useful in any meaningful sense. Historically, Afghanistan has been little more than where empires die. Powerful countries continually make the mistake of coming to this hellhole without gaining much of anything.cl4u53w1t2 wrote:
i smell narrow-mindedness and ignorance hereTurquoise wrote:
Culturally
must... resist... the... urge... to... make... a... joke... about... american... "culture"...
Culturally, Afghanistan has offered very little to the world, while essentially being a parasite of neighboring countries.
America isn't even comparable, especially since our culture tends to dominate much of the world. We export our entertainment and governmental principles continuously.
good idea?Commie Killer wrote:
Some fertile farmland, trick is getting the population to produce something besides opium though.Turquoise wrote:
Culturally and resource-wise.Commie Killer wrote:
Useless in what respect?
You've made a strong case for Afghan resources, but still not for their culture.cl4u53w1t2 wrote:
Afghanistan is endowed with a wealth of natural resources, including extensive deposits of natural gas, petroleum, coal, marble, gold, copper, chromite, talc, barites, sulfur, lead, zinc, iron ore, salt, precious and semi-precious stones. In 2006, the U.S. Geological Survey estimated that Afghanistan has as much as 36 trillion cubic feet (1.0×10^12 m3) of natural gas, 3.6 billion barrels (570×10^6 m3) of oil and condensate reserves.
According to a recent 2007 U.S. Geological Survey's assessment, it was again revealed that Afghanistan has significant amounts of undiscovered non-fuel mineral resources.
Scientists also found indications of abundant deposits of colored stones and gemstones, including emerald, ruby, sapphire, garnet, lapis, kunzite, spinel, tourmaline and peridot.
+ every country is culturally useful, even the us
(don't know much about afghan literature, music etc. they seem to have borne a lot of useful scientists)
No, it's been backwards since Genghis Khan came in and destroyed any semblance of civilization.Mekstizzle wrote:
To be fair the Taliban were the guys that really destroyed the country in terms of culture and backwardness and shit, the country was probably much less backwards in its history than it is today, and certainly during its pre-Islamic times but even after Islam came in. It wasn't always ridiculously backwards and it can be brought back from its current backwardness in time.
Probably
