BF2S Forums Norwegian Reporter embedded with Taliban as they kill U.S. Soldiers

BN wrote:

Are they really terrorists?

If someone invaded my country and I fought back that would not make me a terrorist.

If you attack civilians specifically because they are civilians, THAT makes you a terrorist.

Most of what the Taliban are doing does not make them terrorists, it makes them pseudo-Maoist insurgents.

.Sup wrote:

BN wrote:

Are they really terrorists?

If someone invaded my country and I fought back that would not make me a terrorist.

well chopping heads off kinda does make them terrorists

How does raining down incendiaries sit then?

The reporter is doing his job, reporting.
We need to see both sides to understand the true situation, or we can believe the propaganda thrown at us, doesn't really seem a hard choice.

rdx-fx wrote:

But, I'll give you a list of years instead, where "going in circles around the enemy chanting "freedom and democracy"" essentially seems to have worked.

1215, 1776, 1789, 1989

Shahter wrote:

okay, i can't be bothered to go search for first three dates, but i can tell you for sure - usa had almost zero influence over what happened in 1989, no matter how much you like to pat yourselves on the back. the fact of the matter is ussr had rotten away from within.

1215 - English Magna Carta
1776 - American Revolution
1789 - French Revolution
1989 - Fall of the Berlin Wall

And it has nothing to do with American involvement, Shahter.  US wasn't even around for 1215, 1789 wasn't our doing directly, and the 1989 Fall of the Berlin Wall kinda caught us by surprise too.  No, I wasn't poking at Russia's transformation in the 1990's.

The idea of freedom has an appeal directly in proportion to the oppressiveness of the current government.  A benevolent kingdom is at little risk of a popular uprising.  A brutal dictatorship, where the people are abused and have no rights, nor any say in their government - that is where the idea of freedom will start a revolution. 

People want the illusion, at least, of having some small token of control over their government, some small say in the actions of their politicians.  This is where the ideal of Democracy comes from.  It's an ideal older than Aristotle, older than any of the modern Democracies in the world.  Doesn't matter if it comes shipped in an American flag.  The form of Democracy looks different depending on culture.  Russian Democracy looks nothing like American Democracy looks nothing like Persian Democracy looks nothing like Iraqi Democracy, etc, etc.

And, shocking as it may be to Western minds, the ideal of Democracy isn't necessarily a good thing in some cultures.  In some cultures, having a good strong central leader (i.e. dictator) is preferable to the chaotic uncertainties of Democracy.
These are the same regions where a handshake over a cup of Chai is worth more than 1,000 pages of official documents signed by a President.
They see the den of vipers and corrupt intrigue inherently possible in Democracy, and not much more.

BN wrote:

Are they really terrorists?

If someone invaded my country and I fought back that would not make me a terrorist.

Terrorism - The calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear

Partisan - A member of an irregular military force formed to oppose control of an area by a foreign power or by an army of occupation

The French Resistance of WW-II would be a Partisan force.  The North Irish were Partisans, with some elements falling into Terrorism.  The Taliban extensively used Terrorism while in control of Afghanistan, and in their relations hosting Al Quaeda from 1996 onwards and Terrorism while playing the part of a Partisan force after they were evicted from power.

rdx-fx wrote:

But, I'll give you a list of years instead, where "going in circles around the enemy chanting "freedom and democracy"" essentially seems to have worked.

1215 - English Magna Carta
1776 - American Revolution
1789 - French Revolution
1989 - Fall of the Berlin Wall

The first three weren't exactly achieved by each side sending lilies via Interflora, the fourth was the culmination of decades of cold war - potential nuclear annihilation at the press of a button - and multiple live-fire proxy wars in other peoples countries.

rdx-fx wrote:

And it has nothing to do with American involvement, Shahter...
No, I wasn't poking at Russia's transformation in the 1990's.

i c. here we are too used to think gorbachev's rise to power and ensuing perestroika conciding with ussr downfall (which, de-facto, did happen that way), so i thought you were speaking about that.
anyway, dilbert addressed those examples you gave for me already.

as to the whole "democracy" thing: i don't care about "illusions" and if anybody wants them or not. democracy is, by definition, impossible, because it requires inhuman level of self consiousness from majority of the society running it. we, the humanity, are not even close to that.

After the Islamic Fundamentalists saw the USSR fold, and deluded themselves into taking credit for it, they became rather insufferable.

wat? you lost me there, man. islamic fundamentalists now take credit for ussr' collapse?

Humanise? Treason? A harmor thread?

You're trying to pick up the slack for lowing but even he wouldn't post such bullshit. How the fuck is reporting treason and how the fuck are the taliban not human? It pains me that you believe your own opinion.

That reporters got balls and documentarys from the other side are always interesting.

Apparently this reporter ended up getting kidnapped by the people he was reporting with, then some other commander he knew from the Soviet era helped set him free. Still I watched this, interesting show and how one of the Taliban commanders was showing his kids and stuff but I'm always thinking to myself, he's smiling and shit know but the stuff he believes in is just messed up.

I mean who the hell keeps yelling God is great everytime they do ANYTHING. It's like they're brainwashed, completely deluded folk.

They're just yelling it to fit in. If any one of us were born there we might well be in the taliban, luckily we weren't born there.

rdx-fx wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

thats why they would be doing him a favor by not lettin himself come off as a person with a brain the size of a peanut.  I was sure to write "favor" in there because harmor cant do it himself

Wonderful thing about free speech.  It gives the ignorant the opportunity to learn from their ignorance, and allows the truly moronic to self-identify to serve as a warning to others.

Or, in Sergeant-speak, "There are idiots that don't know, and idiots that won't know, and idiots that can't know. Which flavor of idiot am I dealing with here?"

Though in Harmor's defense, I think it was more of a case of enthusiasm outrunning rational thought.

"The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error."
John Stuart Mill

Shahter wrote:

really? and just how many of them are educated enough to understand the processes involved?

Insha'Allah

that is all they generally feel the need to understand about complex topics outside their personal experience.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-08-30 06:28:02)

Jaekus wrote:

I just hope he can complete his story. It would surely be quite some account to be told.

we know the story. When When the Enemy engages retreat. When the Enemy retreats persue. When the Enemy rests harrass.  Pray.

Jaekus wrote:

I just hope he can complete his story. It would surely be quite some account to be told.

His story is complete. He didn't exactly set out to cover them, he just got swept on and then decided that rather than risk being shot or worse would film for a while (I'm guessing) but was rescued a few days later.

EDIT: Oh you mean the documentary he's making? Hm, how much of it is done?

Last edited by Spark (2010-08-30 06:55:24)