BF2S Forums Palin Edging to 2012 Run, Says She's Willing to 'Give It a Shot'

11 Bravo wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

Harmor wrote:

That fact that McCain was the second worst RINO only to Grahamnisty of South Carolina didn't help either.

yeah, that was it.

he said didnt help ffs.  go away

There were millions of independents that voted for Obama because McCain wasn't conservative enough?

Harmor wrote:

There were millions of conservatives that did not vote for McCain because he wasn't conservative enough.  The independents didn't see a big enough difference in many cases and thus voted for Obama.

Other factors included: unpopular Iraq and Afghanistan wars; coming economy recession due to lax housing regulations; bailouts that he voted for (same as Obama...no difference).

You make it sound like independents won't vote Conservative?  Remember they did with Reagan, Bush H, Bush W, and again this midterm according to Real Clear Politics where Republicans have a generic lead over Democrats.

This generic lead is larger than it was in the 1994 midterm elections that brought the Republicans back into power with Newt Gingrich leading the charge with Contract with America for those of you who where still in diapers :-P

Considering that Bush lost the popular vote to Gore and only beat Kerry by 3 million votes, that's hardly a ringing endorsement. It had more to do with weak candidates put up by the Democrats than anything. This country may lean slightly right of center, but you would call anyone who wouldn't be considered a right wing extremist by the majority, a RINO or not conservative enough. Frankly, any vote that you are happy to cast is a loss for the nation as a whole. Your views are not, and never will be, in the majority. Sorry.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-09-18 21:48:59)

JohnG@lt wrote:

Harmor wrote:

There were millions of conservatives that did not vote for McCain because he wasn't conservative enough.  The independents didn't see a big enough difference in many cases and thus voted for Obama.

Other factors included: unpopular Iraq and Afghanistan wars; coming economy recession due to lax housing regulations; bailouts that he voted for (same as Obama...no difference).

You make it sound like independents won't vote Conservative?  Remember they did with Reagan, Bush H, Bush W, and again this midterm according to Real Clear Politics where Republicans have a generic lead over Democrats.

This generic lead is larger than it was in the 1994 midterm elections that brought the Republicans back into power with Newt Gingrich leading the charge with Contract with America for those of you who where still in diapers :-P

Considering that Bush lost the popular vote to Gore and only beat Kerry by 3 million votes, that's hardly a ringing endorsement. It had more to do with weak candidates put up by the Democrats than anything. This country may lean slightly right of center, but you would call anyone who wouldn't be considered a right wing extremist by the majority, a RINO or not conservative enough. Frankly, any vote that you are happy to cast is a loss for the nation as a whole. Your views are not, and never will be, in the majority. Sorry.

Thanks for marginalizing the 40% of the nation that identify themselves as Conservative.

Harmor wrote:

Thanks for marginalizing the 40% of the nation that identify themselves as Conservative.

40% doesn't win elections.

you live in a god damned fantasy world.

Harmor wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Thanks for marginalizing the 40% of the nation that identify themselves as Conservative.

Most of them wouldn't know what being conservative meant if you asked them their opinion on more than a handful of topics.

Then would you says the same for the 27% of Americans who identify themselves as Liberal then?

Of course. Most people are single issue voters and absolutely clueless beyond that.

Let's play a game harmor. Tell me in your own words (no cheating now) what it is that makes you conservative.

Well lets see:

I believe in my conservative values and don't have to mask them behind stupid words like 'progressive' or whatnot to get independents to vote for it.

I believe in Reaganomics - all five principles.

I believe in limited Government.

I believe in a strong defense (Peace though Strength).

I believe in a the rule of law (illegals are illegal), and that the law is blind (no special hate crime legislation or rights given to any special or protected group).

I believe in Capitalism.

I believe in low taxes for everyone.

I believe that government handouts, in all forms, deminishes the human spirit and makes you slaves to your slave holders.

I believe in faith based organizations like Military Outreach Ministry.

I believe that Government Employee unions should be illegal.

I believe in that we should have school choice instead of being force to go to a school because of where you live.

I believe in a person to choose Life (this is where I differ from many social conservatives), but I don't care about forcing you to choose Life.  If you want to kill your unborn kid, go for it, just don't force me to.

I believe that marriage is a convenant between God, a Man, and a Woman.  Marriage should thus be stricken from the law books and replaced with Civil Unions for any two persons not related by blood (again this is where I differ from social conservatives).


If you haven't figured it out I'm more of a Fiscal Conservative than Social Conservative, but the social issues I just want government to get out my life and let me be.



Now you...what makes you Liberal?

Reciprocity wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Thanks for marginalizing the 40% of the nation that identify themselves as Conservative.

40% doesn't win elections.

you live in a god damned fantasy world.

Well...  it does if you have a 3 way election, but yeah, under normal circumstances...

Turquoise wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Now you...what makes you Liberal?

John is a Libertarian...

Sorry, my mistake.

Reciprocity wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Thanks for marginalizing the 40% of the nation that identify themselves as Conservative.

40% doesn't win elections.

you live in a god damned fantasy world.

Current Australian government only won 38% of the primary.

Logic.

But I'm not a liberal Harmor, unless we're talking the classic sense of the word. I'm certainly not an American style liberal.

Here's where we differ: Reagan was a tool. So was Reaganomics, especially his focus on military spending. You know that national debt we have? Well, the treasury bonds he floated thirty years ago to pay for since mothballed battleships to be upgraded into missile cruisers, are coming due now. That debt clock that's sitting outside of Penn Station in Manhattan? Yeah, it exists because of Reagan and his spending. The tax cuts in the 80s weren't the prime mover in the economy, Michael Milken and Lewis Ranieri pushed the 80s economy. Warren Buffett pushed the 80s. High Yield Bonds (Junk Bonds) fueled the 80s, not tax cuts.

This leads into point #2. Having a strong military leads to its use overseas. Why do we need a military larger than what is necessary to defend our borders? Why should we waste money on something we'll never get a return on? It's certainly not an investment. The only people that benefit are the defense industry who live off the government tit and suck away far more than welfare moms.

Point #3: You don't even know what limited government is. You want to keep a strong military, which is part of the government and necessarily makes it bigger. You want to expand government by turning it into a ministry.

Point #4: You want low taxes, but again, you want a strong military. What should be cut? Are you going to say 'oh, sorry, you paid into Medicare and Social Security all your life but we're going to cut the program now, worry about your own retirement'. Good luck winning on that platform. Oh, I know, you'll cut the pork barrel spending that makes up less than 1% of the budget. Always a good target.

Government employee unions shouldn't be made illegal, they should be unsponsored by the government. Big difference. You can't outlaw unions, what would be the charge? Are you going to ban people from talking around the water cooler too? They might be subversives or planning a strategy to get their salaries raised. Can't have that. No. I don't like unions but banning them outright is as stupid as killing SS and Medicare.

School choice. Cool. Not very conservative of you though. Generally, people move into a town because they like the school district. Please grant school choice though, I'll move into a shitty school district with lower property taxes and send my kids to the better school. Win/win for me.

Sorry Harmor, but you're no fiscal conservative.

DrunkFace wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Thanks for marginalizing the 40% of the nation that identify themselves as Conservative.

40% doesn't win elections.

you live in a god damned fantasy world.

Current Australian government only won 38% of the primary.

australia has a multitudes of political parties.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Current Australian government only won 38% of the primary.

australia has a multitudes of political parties.

Thanks to having a reasonable constitution and political system.

Well, it's more because you have preferences and a parliamentary system.

While I can definitely see the worth of having a parliament over a Congress, the preference voting system seems to overvalue third parties.

Instant Runoff Voting (a similar system) is more straightforward and evenhanded about representation.  Preferences seems to give a little too much to less popular candidates -- and thus, you get nuts like Fielding in office.

And here's the dirty little secret Harmor, capitalism is the most liberal set of economic ideas on the planet. Again, not in the American liberal sense, the classical sense, and it is completely incompatible with social conservatism. The free market types and the social conservative are only in the same party because 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. This is why going to extremes with people like Palin will kill any election chances the Republicans have. There's only so much that we, the free market types, will tolerate before we split the party.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-09-18 22:38:11)