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2010-11-25 06:03:44
JahManRed
wank
+646|7017|IRELAND

News flash. The lib dems didn't win the election, they are not the Senior partner in the coalition. They do not and cannot make calls as big as this with such a low mandate in this coalition. Even if every student in the country voted for them.

Like the rest of the country, students have been living the opulent lifestyle for the past 10 years. I know loads of students and they can be spit into two categories.
1. Vocational Students how have a career picked out and work towards that career. In my experience these students work hard and do little partying as the work load on their course is too much. I spent 5 years studying a vocation, 2 guys on my course had mental breakdowns with the work load and quit in the last year. We did fuck all partying.

2. McDonnell's Degrees. Go to university for university life 1st, education second. They pick pointless degrees. My friends have done pointless degrees like woman's studies and English literature. None of them are working at anything related to their degrees. They do low paid work in shops etc. They all partied their way through university.
These people offer little contribution to society based on the education we all partially funded as tax payers. Total waste of time and this whole category of students needs to cut out. Its an opulent bunch of drunks the country cant afford anymore.
2010-11-25 09:24:56
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
yeah english literature sure is useless

whereas you guys doing 5 years of 'vocational degrees' (isn't that basically ex-polytechnic labour fodder?) are THE REAL CHAMPIONS

i'd be able to take your post seriously if it didn't stink of class-envy and bullshit
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-25 09:28:43
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...
All fields of study are extremely valuable according to everyone who studies it. Take fucking music degrees for example.

Now actually valuable degrees provided by universities of which there is a shortage of graduates to begin with (sometimes pretty massive shortages, take anything engineering related for example), will deliver even less people schooled in those fields.
inane little opines
2010-11-25 09:31:31
Jenspm
penis
+1,716|7121|St. Andrews / Oslo

The arts department always has the hottest chicks


Don't cut them, bro

Last edited by Jenspm (2010-11-25 09:31:54)

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/flickricon.png https://twitter.com/phoenix/favicon.ico
2010-11-25 09:32:55
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
the way the university system works in the UK is hierarchical and based on old, pre-labour snob values. it's competitive. the names and 'brands' actually come before the courses, mostly anyway. there is of course the basic distinction between absolute-shit courses and courses that require some thought, academic merit or effort. but that's not the line that jahman is trying to draw-- his is between some sort of working-ethic 'hands on' degrees and those 'pansy' ivory tower degrees. the popular view of degree's 'worth' doesn't operate on that basis... thank god.

i agree that top institutions should be more selective, more restrictive, and more driven. less entitlement and less give-away places to promote 'social equality' and 'mobility'. if somebody isn't intelligent enough, then don't give them a place. simples- take the politics out of education. people with scientific minds or practical skillsets saying that degrees such as music are 'useless' are only showing just how narrowminded they are on the back of their hands-on nature. a society doesn't need a musical culture or academic discourse about music? ok then. thank fuck you numbskulls aren't all in control, or culture and society wouldn't progress at all.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-25 09:55:57
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Uzique wrote:

i agree that top institutions should be more selective, more restrictive, and more driven. less entitlement and less give-away places to promote 'social equality' and 'mobility'. if somebody isn't intelligent enough, then don't give them a place. simples- take the politics out of education.
100% agreed

Uzique wrote:

people with scientific minds or practical skillsets saying that degrees such as music are 'useless' are only showing just how narrowminded they are on the back of their hands-on nature. a society doesn't need a musical culture or academic discourse about music? ok then. thank fuck you numbskulls aren't all in control, or culture and society wouldn't progress at all.
I'm not really that scientific minded, I just happened to pick chem. engineering over philosophy for multitudes of reasons. It comes in handy to have talents and interests in a very wide range of things so as to increase your options.

Yes, having your culture flourish is great and it should be promoted, yet helping people get a degree with which they can do fuck all is one of the things that makes me think "why wouldn't you cut there first?".

I was talking about the 'music' degrees in which people don't actually partake in making music. I don't really know what exactly they're doing, I know two people who "study" music itself which consists of them doing absolutely NOTHING all day for 4 years.

It was an example of the studies which I do believe are infact useless. Not only music but also f.ex. certain social studies which people start using to observer sexual behaviour and preferences of people in their 18s to 25s (also state funded research by the way).

Or take degrees of which there are WAY TOO MANY graduates every year, such as psychology. Why not cut there? Why not decrease the limit of people that can partake in that study yearly and start being more selective on who should be admitted to the study and who shouldn't.

I also believe that people studying psychology should be able to obtain their bachelor in half the time that it takes now. My brother studies it, and has just like the music people fuck all to do all day. Shorten these studies in order to save money. If you compare the workload of people doing beta studies to those doing alpha, in quite alot of cases you'll see it's far more and far more demanding, imo it should be equalized.

The state should get it's priorities right before it starts cutting on the entire board.
inane little opines
2010-11-25 10:33:20
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
so you're saying the state should proscribe what an individual cannot study because of 'economic quotas'?

wow so much for the renaissance, humanism and liberalism

lets all just fit into society as per market-request, like cogs in a little pretend-educated machine!
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-25 10:41:17
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Uzique wrote:

so you're saying the state should proscribe what an individual cannot study because of 'economic quotas'?

wow so much for the renaissance, humanism and liberalism

lets all just fit into society as per market-request, like cogs in a little pretend-educated machine!
If the economic quotas cannot sustain the current model it should be changed but not slammed into oblivion is my idea. I'm not advocating making people pay 10.000 pounds for one study and 0 for the other, I'd like to keep the current cost system but have them cut everywhere they deem necessary.

If you are motivated enough to do something and have the right qualifications you will mostly always end up in the spot you want.
inane little opines
2010-11-25 10:44:39
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
yeah, exactly... so lets stop pinning the human right and ideal of 'education' to political/economic models and needs, yes?

if the country needs 10,000 agricultural workers to fill an export gap, it will find them from somewhere- locally or globally

lets not deprive people of their intellectual pursuits and general education just because some other fat-cats fucked up with their loans
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-25 10:51:01
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Uzique wrote:

yeah, exactly... so lets stop pinning the human right and ideal of 'education' to political/economic models and needs, yes?

if the country needs 10,000 agricultural workers to fill an export gap, it will find them from somewhere- locally or globally

lets not deprive people of their intellectual pursuits and general education just because some other fat-cats fucked up with their loans
ideally that would be great, after all most countries in modern european history stated they'd like an intellectual, skilled population which motivated the easy access to scientific education in the first place.

but now the problem being that that model cannot be sustained (sadly economic wellbeing or lack thereof dictates pretty much... everything), so you have to find a solution wether you'd hate to or not. Ultimately increasing tuition fees to 10.000 pounds annually will destroy the opportunity of alot of people to attend the type of education they would wish to complete.

Especially those in which there is little hope of ending up with a big paycheck.

Last edited by dayarath (2010-11-25 10:58:20)

inane little opines
2010-11-25 11:24:32
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
right and your economic-model suggests charging more for 'wasteful' degrees that will end up with a smaller paycheck?

makes sense
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-25 11:37:28
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6388|...

Uzique wrote:

right and your economic-model suggests charging more for 'wasteful' degrees that will end up with a smaller paycheck?

makes sense
No, I'm saying limiting the amount of spots available for a study and cutting on it's expenditures. Even if this happened all across the board I'd rather have that than this.
inane little opines
2010-11-25 14:06:45
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

dayarath wrote:

Uzique wrote:

so you're saying the state should proscribe what an individual cannot study because of 'economic quotas'?

wow so much for the renaissance, humanism and liberalism

lets all just fit into society as per market-request, like cogs in a little pretend-educated machine!
If the economic quotas cannot sustain the current model it should be changed but not slammed into oblivion is my idea. I'm not advocating making people pay 10.000 pounds for one study and 0 for the other, I'd like to keep the current cost system but have them cut everywhere they deem necessary.

If you are motivated enough to do something and have the right qualifications you will mostly always end up in the spot you want.
Hey that all gets sorted on the back end. 'usless degrees' have lower income attached to them. Push engineering with a quota and our wages will drop. No thanks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-25 14:07:46
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

Uzique wrote:

yeah, exactly... so lets stop pinning the human right and ideal of 'education' to political/economic models and needs, yes?

if the country needs 10,000 agricultural workers to fill an export gap, it will find them from somewhere- locally or globally

lets not deprive people of their intellectual pursuits and general education just because some other fat-cats fucked up with their loans
100% agreement.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-25 14:10:31
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5747|London, England

dayarath wrote:

Uzique wrote:

yeah, exactly... so lets stop pinning the human right and ideal of 'education' to political/economic models and needs, yes?

if the country needs 10,000 agricultural workers to fill an export gap, it will find them from somewhere- locally or globally

lets not deprive people of their intellectual pursuits and general education just because some other fat-cats fucked up with their loans
ideally that would be great, after all most countries in modern european history stated they'd like an intellectual, skilled population which motivated the easy access to scientific education in the first place.

but now the problem being that that model cannot be sustained (sadly economic wellbeing or lack thereof dictates pretty much... everything), so you have to find a solution wether you'd hate to or not. Ultimately increasing tuition fees to 10.000 pounds annually will destroy the opportunity of alot of people to attend the type of education they would wish to complete.

Especially those in which there is little hope of ending up with a big paycheck.
No thats backwards. Higher tuition would preclude people with no hope of paying off debt from attending. Hope of a higher paycheck means high paying degree paths should see no drop off in enrollment.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-11-25 22:48:39
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
look whether or not you esteem music to be 'worthy' of funding in your own shitty little universe is up to you. frankly, you're unqualified and your arrogance means fucking shit to me, or anyone else. pull your head out of your own ass. stop talking shit about things that you utterly don't understand. stop being such a fucking ignoramus. proscribing people and refusing their 'right' and opportunity to study such an option because SOMEONE ELSE perhaps a generation ago FUCKED UP on their  hedge funds is ludicrous. if you support such a notion... fuck you, you fucking dumbass.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-25 23:59:38
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6495|eXtreme to the maX

Uzique wrote:

thank fuck you numbskulls aren't all in control, or culture and society wouldn't progress at all.
I'm fairly sure the proportion of people who have contributed significantly to the arts who did an arts degree first is actually pretty small.

So funding of University courses in the arts is fairly irrelevant to culture and society.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-11-26 00:00:27)

Fuck Israel
2010-11-26 03:31:40
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
im sure every single engineering graduate went on to be fucking brunel's step-son, too

on that basis and with that logic we should just cut the funding for every single course because, just realistically, 99% of people are average

i mean we need average people. why even bother entertaining the idea of educating them? maths? you're not going to be maths don! snip!
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-26 03:50:00
JahManRed
wank
+646|7017|IRELAND

Uzique wrote:

yeah english literature sure is useless

whereas you guys doing 5 years of 'vocational degrees' (isn't that basically ex-polytechnic labour fodder?) are THE REAL CHAMPIONS

i'd be able to take your post seriously if it didn't stink of class-envy and bullshit
Ok, then give me a list of jobs a student with no job experience can walk out of English Literature Degree into? Then I can pass it on to the 3 girls I know who cant get work and are working in supermarkets.

The last time I looked the class system was supposed to be dead. Im not sure what class I fall into, possibly you could define it for me? My dad is a carpenter and my mum a preschool teacher. I am an Architect who drives a beat up land rover defender & lived in a mobile home until 2 years ago. I am not a high earner, I earn about the same as my Dad.
If you need anymore info on my life to pigeon hole me, please feel free to ask.

Uzique wrote:

the way the university system works in the UK is hierarchical and based on old, pre-labour snob values. it's competitive. the names and 'brands' actually come before the courses, mostly anyway. there is of course the basic distinction between absolute-shit courses and courses that require some thought, academic merit or effort. but that's not the line that jahman is trying to draw-- his is between some sort of working-ethic 'hands on' degrees and those 'pansy' ivory tower degrees. the popular view of degree's 'worth' doesn't operate on that basis... thank god.
That is what I am trying to say. If you would remove the "upperclass snob" label you have stuck on me and stop being blinded by some imaginary class war you have invented you will see we are talking about the same thing. I am saying their are good degrees and bad degrees. Degrees that students pic so they can enjoy student life 1st and get an education 2nd is a luxury the nation cant afford anymore. I know lots of people who done it, my sister being one of them. She had to do two degrees because the first one was pointless. Im 35 so I have seen friends and now friends kids coming out of university and they simply cannot get jobs in their chosen subject. That's a fact, atleaset where I live. A friend of mine who left school at 16 to drive a digger has about 20 people working for him and is a millionaire. He can barely read or write. Its more about the individual that the education they get.


Maybe its different on the main land UK, but in Northern Ireland, if you do not do a degree with a career in mind and work towards that career by picking a suitable degree, working weekends & holidays for little or nothing to gain experience, build up a good CV, you have little chance getting a job when you leave university in the current climate.

Uzique wrote:

I agree that top institutions should be more selective, more restrictive, and more driven. less entitlement and less give-away places to promote 'social equality' and 'mobility'. if somebody isn't intelligent enough, then don't give them a place. simples- take the politics out of education. people with scientific minds or practical skillsets saying that degrees such as music are 'useless' are only showing just how narrowminded they are on the back of their hands-on nature. a society doesn't need a musical culture or academic discourse about music? ok then. thank fuck you numbskulls aren't all in control, or culture and society wouldn't progress at all.
The fact is, courses have been manufactured so that their is a place at university for all but the thickest of people. Allot of these degrees don't led anywhere and are pointless educationally to the student and to the society they belong to. So cut them out.

I like the way you tagged music on there. "Jahman wants to kill the arts!" Bullshit. If the person is focused and talented musically then they can make a living out of it. I do session work, play with a Samba band and have a home recording studio and I paint and know lots of people who make good money from music and art. Not that I need to explain myself to you, but seeing as you have labeled me without knowing fuck all about me...........
2010-11-26 04:25:29
presidentsheep
Back to the Fuhrer
+208|6350|Places 'n such

JahManRed wrote:

Uzique wrote:

yeah english literature sure is useless

whereas you guys doing 5 years of 'vocational degrees' (isn't that basically ex-polytechnic labour fodder?) are THE REAL CHAMPIONS

i'd be able to take your post seriously if it didn't stink of class-envy and bullshit
Ok, then give me a list of jobs a student with no job experience can walk out of English Literature Degree into? Then I can pass it on to the 3 girls I know who cant get work and are working in supermarkets.

The last time I looked the class system was supposed to be dead. Im not sure what class I fall into, possibly you could define it for me? My dad is a carpenter and my mum a preschool teacher. I am an Architect who drives a beat up land rover defender & lived in a mobile home until 2 years ago. I am not a high earner, I earn about the same as my Dad.
If you need anymore info on my life to pigeon hole me, please feel free to ask.
Middle class.

JahManRed wrote:

Uzique wrote:

the way the university system works in the UK is hierarchical and based on old, pre-labour snob values. it's competitive. the names and 'brands' actually come before the courses, mostly anyway. there is of course the basic distinction between absolute-shit courses and courses that require some thought, academic merit or effort. but that's not the line that jahman is trying to draw-- his is between some sort of working-ethic 'hands on' degrees and those 'pansy' ivory tower degrees. the popular view of degree's 'worth' doesn't operate on that basis... thank god.
That is what I am trying to say. If you would remove the "upperclass snob" label you have stuck on me and stop being blinded by some imaginary class war you have invented you will see we are talking about the same thing. I am saying their are good degrees and bad degrees. Degrees that students pic so they can enjoy student life 1st and get an education 2nd is a luxury the nation cant afford anymore. I know lots of people who done it, my sister being one of them. She had to do two degrees because the first one was pointless. Im 35 so I have seen friends and now friends kids coming out of university and they simply cannot get jobs in their chosen subject. That's a fact, atleaset where I live. A friend of mine who left school at 16 to drive a digger has about 20 people working for him and is a millionaire. He can barely read or write. Its more about the individual that the education they get.
Unfortunately the labels tend to stick on everyone. If you've got a degree in basket weaving and flower arranging from Cambridge/Oxford/Durham/... Youre better off for getting a job than someone with a degree in something better from a less well regarded university. People see the name of the university and make judgements on that more than anything, hence Oxford Brookes, Cambridge Ruskin and Uxbridge...

JahManRed wrote:

Maybe its different on the main land UK, but in Northern Ireland, if you do not do a degree with a career in mind and work towards that career by picking a suitable degree, working weekends & holidays for little or nothing to gain experience, build up a good CV, you have little chance getting a job when you leave university in the current climate.
all that is useless if youve gone to a shitty university

...and with that i'm off to pack for London to see a friend and see if i cant sneak a look in UCL

Last edited by presidentsheep (2010-11-26 04:27:00)

I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
2010-11-26 04:27:54
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6495|eXtreme to the maX

Uzique wrote:

im sure every single engineering graduate went on to be fucking brunel's step-son, too

on that basis and with that logic we should just cut the funding for every single course because, just realistically, 99% of people are average

i mean we need average people. why even bother entertaining the idea of educating them? maths? you're not going to be maths don! snip!
Saying cultural development would cease if arts courses were stopped is not credible.

Maths is useful, being able to write 5,000 words on the difference between two sonnets - less so.
Fuck Israel
2010-11-26 04:55:15
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
dilbert you're just using yawn-worthy reductio ad absurdum arguments... it's boring. grow up a bit?

the plain fact is that 99% of graduates aren't going to achieve anything worthy or beneficial to 'society' at large with their degrees. by 25 most graduates are just going to be climbing a soul-less corporate ladder, chasing a bigger salary, or sitting on a middle-management job for a wall-insulation firm in slough. every single maths graduate from every single degree-granting institution isn't going to go on and make leaping advancements in theoretical thought, nor are they going to contribute to unlocking the next great secret of the universe. every single engineering graduate isn't going to go on to design the infrastructure for a third-world country, thus elevating it to first-world standards. people are average. in the grand scheme of things, your choice of degree is pretty irrelevant; it's not a life-binding and irreversible choice. if somebody wants to go do an arts degree, by the very principle of liberal humanism, they should have that opportunity. the guy that's doing a science degree is no more 'noble' or 'worthy' because their degree is steeped in cold, steely empiricism instead of abstract rationalism and thinky-thoughts.

get over it. there should be equal opportunity and equal promotion across the board.

Last edited by Uzique (2010-11-26 04:56:15)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-26 05:07:33
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6495|eXtreme to the maX
Yours was the rotovator ad abseiling argument

Uzique wrote:

thank fuck you numbskulls aren't all in control, or culture and society wouldn't progress at all.
I was just correcting you.
if somebody wants to go do an arts degree, by the very principle of liberal humanism, they should have that opportunity
Sure, but someone has to pick up the bill.
Fuck Israel
2010-11-26 05:15:43
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6860
they are? the argument here is how much that cost should be. even the government aren't suggesting some arbitrary system of 'cost' based on the degrees esteemed 'worth'- that's your crackpot, bias suggestion. even our own coalition government aren't that stupid-- and as far as governments go, they're proving themselves thus far to be pretty fucking inept. tuition fees and their general cost to everyone is what i am interested in... this asinine 'sorting' of subjects is really fruitless. i agree on the point that some degree-granting institutions and all their courses, generally, are not worth the paper they're printed on. i do not agree that oxford should cut out all of its classics, arts and humanities subjects because they have no immediate economic 'dividend'. i'm not sure if you remember but there was a time when education was about enriching the individual, and not about slotting them into a global capitalist system of production and value.

my point about arts and culture progressing implies nothing more than that SOME minority of those educated by such degrees further that same art/culture. just like i said that 'some' maths graduates will do great things-- some, but not all. if you adopt an attitude that just cuts it out in the first place, obviously nothing will progress. it's important to keep the opportunity there for everybody in the first place, though.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-11-26 05:49:20
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6495|eXtreme to the maX
I thought education was about enabling people to have a useful role in society, never mind the satanic mills and 'we're all individuals, especially me'.

The problem as I see it is the real vocational subjects have been cut, ie Polytechnic courses. All those people are now doing degrees and expecting to be managers or administrators instead of plumbers or hairdressers.
Plus so many pointless and valueless courses have been created just to let academics have fun the whole concept of a degree has been degraded.

It needs to go back to that, Oxbridge and maybe a few others can keep their arts but there is next to no point in having 100 Universities all offering obscure and useless rubbish.
Fuck Israel

 

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