DAST Chat

2011-03-30 11:38:42

#1551

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5718|London, England

Shocking wrote:
I'm not letting him slide by any means, I still think he's a dumbfuck. I just don't understand why JFK is considered one of the best presidents in US history and this man is at the absolute bottom of the ladder. I think it could've been much worse/better, there are much more stupid people on this planet.

Imagine if mccain got elected and palin was the VP, jesus.

The two sets of competitors in the 2008 election made me want to cry.

Last edited by Jay (2011-03-30 11:39:16)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-03-30 11:40:53

#1552

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6360|...

Uzique wrote:
lets just agree with the broad-concensus that we're comparing two pretty stinky turds here

all i was essentially speaking for is the historical convenience of 'letting off' bush, in any way. he was shit. lets not forget it in a hurry, eh

lol, sure

inane little opines

2011-03-30 11:42:25

#1553

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6771|'Murka

One of our worst presidents had one of the best ideas regarding budgeting and it should be resurrected--Carter's Zero-Based Budgeting. Every office, every program has to justify every dollar every year, rather than the current Baseline Budgeting system, where you start at a given number and go up from there.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-30 11:43:48

#1554

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6360|...

FEOS wrote:
If you bothered to listen to the man describe the decision-making process he went through, the last thing you would ever describe him as is "dumb." Ineloquent, sure. But not dumb.

Well I'm speaking in relative terms. Honestly, anyone who makes it to the position of president is bound to be quite skilled behind the scenes and generally at what he does. Nevertheless you can still ponder over material endlessly and end up making the entirely wrong choice in response.

I do feel that he seems much more intelligent and comfortable if he gets to speak with a camera 1 on 1, his speeches were just disasters. Except if you look back to his time of governor, in which for some reason he was great at speeching. Guess it's the extra time to prepare or something.

inane little opines

2011-03-30 11:45:19

#1555

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6831

"anyone who makes it to the position of [a leader] is bound to be quite skilled"

huge misassumption

to rise through politics you just have to be a populist. far-right nationalist president waging a 'war on terror'? not exactly a political masterclass

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-03-30 11:45:42

#1556

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6771|'Murka

Good public speaking =/= intelligence

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-30 11:46:21

#1557

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6831

good public speaking = good team of english literature and politics graduates behind you writing good speeches

obama is just as much an example as bush as a pretty average-intelligence person rising to the top with good staff and populism

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-03-30 11:48:43

#1558

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6771|'Murka

Uzique wrote:
"anyone who makes it to the position of [a leader] is bound to be quite skilled"

huge misassumption

to rise through politics you just have to be a populist. far-right nationalist president waging a 'war on terror'? not exactly a political masterclass

But an undergraduate and graduate degree from two of the most prestigious institutions of higher learning in the country are contraindicative of stupidity...

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-30 11:51:39

#1559

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6360|...

Uzique wrote:
"anyone who makes it to the position of [a leader] is bound to be quite skilled"

huge misassumption

to rise through politics you just have to be a populist. far-right nationalist president waging a 'war on terror'? not exactly a political masterclass

Yeah but you need the support of quite a lot of influential people at the same time and to work out things with everyone else in the system. Your entire life will also be analyzed under a microscope as soon as you step into the election of such a position; having relevant work experience and having functioned to the satisfaction of the people you served.

Granted there are examples of absolute idiots rising to positions of power through charisma alone but such things are quite rare I'd say.

inane little opines

2011-03-30 11:55:01

#1560

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6831

FEOS wrote:
Uzique wrote:
"anyone who makes it to the position of [a leader] is bound to be quite skilled"

huge misassumption

to rise through politics you just have to be a populist. far-right nationalist president waging a 'war on terror'? not exactly a political masterclass
But an undergraduate and graduate degree from two of the most prestigious institutions of higher learning in the country are contraindicative of stupidity...

come on that's a little naive. we both know that the prestigious institutions of higher learning are an old boy's club as much as a meritocracy. loads of people here in the UK and in america get to go to oxbridge or harvard/yale because of connections and a privileged upbringing. it's almost like a rite of passage. over here in england it's referred to in the vernacular as "going up to oxbridge", as if it's a default phase in a young toff's life. i don't believe for a second that bush made it into college because he was a star student. colleges attract more money and raise their profile when they let public figures study there. there's a lot more to admissions policies at these places than straight paper-marks.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-03-30 11:56:08

#1561

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6360|...

FEOS wrote:
But an undergraduate and graduate degree from two of the most prestigious institutions of higher learning in the country are contraindicative of stupidity...

Meh, I dunno how much a degree tells you. Sure it's an indication of what someone is capable of -to a certain extent- but there are loads and loads of people at university or college you could rightfully call idiots. Even so, degrees alone aren't enough, you want one special cat to be at the top position of your country and not just some graduate or average guy. Many people rolling out of uni get stuck in the same position for decades.

inane little opines

2011-03-30 11:57:11

#1562

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5718|London, England

Shocking wrote:
Uzique wrote:
"anyone who makes it to the position of [a leader] is bound to be quite skilled"

huge misassumption

to rise through politics you just have to be a populist. far-right nationalist president waging a 'war on terror'? not exactly a political masterclass
Yeah but you need the support of quite a lot of influential people at the same time and to work out things with everyone else in the system. Your entire life will also be analyzed under a microscope as soon as you step into the election of such a position; having relevant work experience and having functioned to the satisfaction of the people you served.

Granted there are examples of absolute idiots rising to positions of power through charisma alone but such things are quite rare I'd say.

Work experience? Like being a full time politician and/or community organizer?

No, the problem with politics and politicians is that the vast majority of them know no other career and are fucking clueless as a result. They then turn around and A) act like an expert on a subject they know nothing about B) write policy on subjects they know nothing about and C) convince voters, who are also ignorant, that they know how to fix the problem they don't understand. That's politics in a nut shell. Thus, to rise to the top you need to be a superb bullshit artist and have nice teeth/hair/facial structure.

Edit - Having an easy to pronounce, not-too-ethnic-sounding, name is a bonus.

Last edited by Jay (2011-03-30 11:58:29)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-03-30 11:59:40

#1563

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6831

yeah i think the age of the 'actual' politician is over. every political race since, say, the televised jfk-nixon affair has been about PR and image. that's the stage where, due to media culture and in particular television, politicians no longer had to be veteran policy-makers and thinktank experts; they instead had to be pretty faces, media personalities, and charming celebrities. run a 'brand' candidate like obama against, say, a politics professor from chicago university... see who wins. no contest.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-03-30 12:00:00

#1564

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6360|...

^ I agree to that, think I've raised the point myself as well some time. (jay)

Alright I'll concede; social intelligence is primarily needed to become president of a country, which obviously tells you nothing about the actual quality of their work.

inane little opines

2011-03-30 12:08:35

#1565

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6360|...

So what's the alternative? The question bothers me because anything I can think of is either hugely susceptible to corruption or probably unacceptable to the public.

inane little opines

2011-03-30 12:31:19

#1566

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5718|London, England

Shocking wrote:
So what's the alternative? The question bothers me because anything I can think of is either hugely susceptible to corruption or probably unacceptable to the public.

The alternative is to strip the government of as much power as possible so the idiots can't break anything.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-03-30 13:02:37

#1567

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6771|'Murka

Uzique wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Uzique wrote:
"anyone who makes it to the position of [a leader] is bound to be quite skilled"

huge misassumption

to rise through politics you just have to be a populist. far-right nationalist president waging a 'war on terror'? not exactly a political masterclass
But an undergraduate and graduate degree from two of the most prestigious institutions of higher learning in the country are contraindicative of stupidity...
come on that's a little naive. we both know that the prestigious institutions of higher learning are an old boy's club as much as a meritocracy. loads of people here in the UK and in america get to go to oxbridge or harvard/yale because of connections and a privileged upbringing. it's almost like a rite of passage. over here in england it's referred to in the vernacular as "going up to oxbridge", as if it's a default phase in a young toff's life. i don't believe for a second that bush made it into college because he was a star student. colleges attract more money and raise their profile when they let public figures study there. there's a lot more to admissions policies at these places than straight paper-marks.

You have to meet entrance criteria. You have to meet retention criteria. All have to do with grades and test scores, not familial ties. The latter put you over the top, "all things being equal." You can't be a dumbass, with shit grades and shit SATs/GREs and still get in to Yale and Hahvahd, just because of daddy.

Why is it easier to believe in grand conspiracies than to believe one guy is just a poor public speaker, rather than an imbecile? Occam's fucking razor, Uzique.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-30 13:05:34

#1568

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6831

i don't think he's an imbecile. i already said him and obama are definitly of average intelligence. obviously my comments about him having two flies for a brain are within the context of his political and nation-leading ability; im not trying to genuinely contend that bush has learning difficulties. im sure he's a guy that can pass a test when forced to sit down and take one. im just saying he's hardly an ideologue or a major force of political theory.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-03-30 13:09:35

#1569

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5946

http://www.insidepolitics.org/heard/heard32300.html

Assuming this is true, his grades aren't specular. Considering the Ivies complain about how many applications they get with people who all have 4.0's some extracurricular but with no redeeming values beyond that (you know robots) it would make sense that the only reason he got in was family connections....

2011-03-30 13:14:45

#1570

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6831

same with oxbridge, here. entry requirements are decent, but not a massive effort to attain. lots of 'robots' that are simply good at doing exams and revising well get in, with no special ability or intelligence to note. just people that are good at being students, as if it's an occupation in itself. 4.0GPA i guess is the equivalent to the 3A's that our top-tier universities require. that's nothing, really.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-03-30 13:21:38

#1571

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6771|'Murka

Mac, that said nothing about entry beyond SAT scores, which are only part of the formula. You should know this. The bulk of that "article" was about a handful of undergraduate course grades. Fairly meaningless, in the grand scheme of things, when you consider the number of courses one takes as an undergrad.

Hardly proof that family ties had anything whatsoever to do with anything. Not saying they didn't, but that was about as much evidence of that as the toilet paper I used this morning...

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-30 13:47:47

#1572

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5946

Editorial from U.S.A today-

In fact, Bush's were a tad higher. His four-year average was 77; Kerry's 76. Both were C students. Kerry graduated from Yale in 1966; Bush in 1968.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/co … etto_x.htm

People with shitty highschool grades either continue to get shitty grades, do worse, or blossom and do really well. People with good high school grades either stay the same or do better, they don't suddenly become C students.

It's fair to say he didn't get in because of his academics and since he hasn't shown himself to have Nietzsche, or Joyce level of creativity or intelligence it's logical to conclude he got in because of his Yale graduate Texas oil millionaire father.

I don't see how admitting that his lucky birth and not his ability gave him some extra opportunity in life is impossible for you to do. I'm pretty ambivalent towards the guy and can recognize his college meant little to his presidency or legacy. To be honest, from where I dropped in, it looks like you are just arguing against Uzique for the sake of arguing against Uzique despite being wrong, like you do a lot.

2011-03-30 14:00:44

#1573

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6831

if yale and harvard were all about merit and only accepted intellectual powerhouses... and if bush's success in life was down to his brainpower... why isn't the skull and bones club made up of the top geek students? there is a social element to top-tier universities, whether you like it or not. test scores and academic ability is a bit of an idealistic dream.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-03-30 14:05:34

#1574

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6771|'Murka

If you just dropped in the middle, kindly drop out. You've obviously just joined the discussion to antagonize me, whether you have a point or not, like you do a lot.

Your assessment of people's performance in college based on their high school grades is simply wrong. The latter is not a reliable indicator of the former, in any case. I was a straight A student in HS and was all over the place in college. I knew other straight A HS students who flunked out. Other mediocre HS students who got straight As in college. It's a crap shoot that totally depends on the drive and maturity of the student involved.

Now go back to wherever you came from before I start making your brain hurt with quote trees.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2011-03-30 14:07:11

#1575

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6771|'Murka

Uzique wrote:
if yale and harvard were all about merit and only accepted intellectual powerhouses... and if bush's success in life was down to his brainpower... why isn't the skull and bones club made up of the top geek students? there is a social element to top-tier universities, whether you like it or not. test scores and academic ability is a bit of an idealistic dream.

Never said it wasn't. You were the one who was discounting his intellect, not me discounting his societal ties.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

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Shocking wrote:

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