BF2S Forums DAST Chat

I get it from a philosophical/theoretical point of view JG but you haven't answered 13rin's point - how do you intend on doing this? The only ways I can think of open up a whole can of worms wrt to privacy and the like.

Last edited by Spark (2011-04-20 07:07:42)

Spark wrote:

I get it from a philosophical/theoretical point of view JG but you haven't answered 13rin's point - how do you intend on doing this? The only ways I can think of open up a whole can of worms wrt to privacy and the like.

Not really. You just take a reading of the odometer when you go to register your vehicle. You then pay whatever per mile driven since the last registration. If you do a lot of driving out of state and you want a more accurate reading of your usage within the state then you could volunteer for a gps device to calculate your state mileage for you. Or, if you don't feel comfortable with a gps type device, embed a RF chip in the registration sticker and have it transmit to processors as you drive down the highway. There are lots of ways to do it. The simplest would be odometer readings (even though the odometer can be disabled)

13rin wrote:

Jay wrote:

So you feel that others should subsidize your behavior then? How do you propose the roads get repaired? Tax the rich? Who else should pay for it besides the people that use the roads?

The little old lady that drives her car once a week to go to church shouldn't be forced to pay the same road maintenance fees as you. You use the roads more.

No I don't feel that others should subsidize my behavior.  I pay for my a tag fee every year and if I want to use the toll roads, I've a sunpass that I've put some money on.  Tickets, Registration fees are the way to pay for roads.  Fuck my city has taxes gasoline a penny here and there to raise revenue -BUT it doesn't go toward road refuckingpair...  But hell, I guess the states have to pay for all those 'putting America to work' roadsigns littering the highways.

I'm just saying that the cost is going to be passed onto the driver regardless.  Doesn't matter that granny drives 1 mile a week whereas Large Marge hauls shit 1000's of miles in a week.  Granny will still be paying for Large Marge.  Fuck... We all ready are.  No.  Proper methods of revenue exist for road repair.  Lotto alone could pay for it.

Well, I will always be a big fan of direct usage taxes. You use something, you pay for its maintenance. You drive, you pay for road repairs. You have a telephone in your house, you have maintenance fees tacked on to pay for pole replacement/maintenance etc. I don't believe that one group of people should subsidize the behavior of another group of people in any way. In this case it's not about controlling the behavior of others, it's simply a matter of getting them to pay for the stuff they use. That's all.

Macbeth wrote:

There would be sooo many ways to get around tax per mile thing. Gas taxes on the other hand are unavoidable.

Nope. Gas tax is inefficient because a person driving a gas guzzler uses the roads at the same rate of a hybrid or electric vehicle but would end up paying for the lions share of maintenance costs. Why should people with gasoline vehicles subsidize the driving habits of people driving electric vehicles? A gas tax simply uses coercion in order to force people to live a certain way and drive certain cars.

Last edited by Jay (2011-04-20 07:57:07)

tuckergustav wrote:

Why should people driving smaller vehicles be charged the same as someone who drives a big heavy truck?  The truck has the potential to do more harm therefore causing more need for maintenance.  There are too many arguable variables for it to be realistic, I think.

Trucks have higher registration fees anyway. You don't think a hybrid vehicle is heavier than it's gasoline powered counterpart?

tuckergustav wrote:

I don't really know tbh.  I had a truck vs. a prius in my head for that statement.

And why is it that you feel that Prius drivers should pay less to maintain roads than truck drivers? I assume when you say truck you mean pickup trucks. You don't think it's enough that they already pay higher fuel costs?

tuckergustav wrote:

I was really just using the size difference.  Prius is small but for the sake of the argument, a civic, fiesta, golf, or even a mini cooper will do.

You have made the point (and I am paraphrasing) that one person should not pay for the choices and habits of another person.  So, as someone that chooses a vehicle that is much smaller and in turn does a bit less damage to the road why should you have to pay the same(assuming you use the roads the same) as someone with an extended cab full size pickup? or even a semi-truck?

Because the difference between a Prius and a pickup truck is negligible when it comes to road damage. Most road damage is independent of the size and/or weight of the vehicles involved. Damage instead is caused by weather. When the ground freezes it causes potholes. They aren't caused by big rig trucks. So no, the size of the vehicle really isn't important.

Jay wrote:

Well, I will always be a big fan of direct usage taxes. You use something, you pay for its maintenance. You drive, you pay for road repairs. You have a telephone in your house, you have maintenance fees tacked on to pay for pole replacement/maintenance etc. I don't believe that one group of people should subsidize the behavior of another group of people in any way. In this case it's not about controlling the behavior of others, it's simply a matter of getting them to pay for the stuff they use. That's all.

That's just it.  I've paid for my title and registration.  I paid for my driver's license.  I pay when I get caught going too fast.  I all ready pay taxes on my gas.  It isn't my fault elected officials decide to misuse the money, I vote against them.  For fuck sake I've got 3 red light cameras I have to drive through every day on the way to work.  Those fuckers are ATMs....  Don't even get me started on states where you have to pay personal property tax every year for owning one's vehicles.

Also why should my little motorcycle pay when it doesn't do virtually any damage to the road when semi's tear it up?  Semis do tear shit up, one of the many reasons a weight restriction exists.

I can about see the future from under my tin hat... Vehicles will be government controlled and won't even start up if they've got too many unpaid miles on them.  They'll be able to turn them on and off to regulate gas consumption, and well since nothing good happens after midnight (you know to cut down on the drunk drivers) just have residential cars turned off from say 12-5am.  What a plus on the environment too -Think the Al Gore/Cali environutters would go for that?

Jay wrote:

You just stepped over the line into nutter territory...

http://myiq2xu.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/ali2.jpg

heh heh...

10 years ago taxing by the mile was in nutter territory.

13rin wrote:

Jay wrote:

You just stepped over the line into nutter territory...

http://myiq2xu.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/ali2.jpg

heh heh...

10 years ago taxing by the mile was in nutter territory.

Actually, my arguments stem from this:


Block envisioned a world where roads were privatized instead of being in the hands of the government and it was an interesting read. His arguments revolved around pure toll based road usage and a profit motive for whatever companies ended up owning the roads. Competition kept prices down etc. There are of course flaws in the idea but it got the wheel turning for me on the topic.

There really is no fairer way to pay for road maintenance than to simply charge a fee based on road usage. As I said to tucker in a prior response, the weight of the vehicle in regards to its damage to the road is rather negligible. Weather does far more damage to roads than the comparable difference between a double-trailered rig and a moped would; so that's not really a solid argument against.

I just despise flat usage fees. It means someone is using something at another persons expense. You'd be pissed off if everyone had to pay the same electric bill, or the same phone bill, regardless of usage. The same logic applies to things like roads.

jord wrote:

Jay wrote:

13rin wrote:

No I don't feel that others should subsidize my behavior.  I pay for my a tag fee every year and if I want to use the toll roads, I've a sunpass that I've put some money on.  Tickets, Registration fees are the way to pay for roads.  Fuck my city has taxes gasoline a penny here and there to raise revenue -BUT it doesn't go toward road refuckingpair...  But hell, I guess the states have to pay for all those 'putting America to work' roadsigns littering the highways.

I'm just saying that the cost is going to be passed onto the driver regardless.  Doesn't matter that granny drives 1 mile a week whereas Large Marge hauls shit 1000's of miles in a week.  Granny will still be paying for Large Marge.  Fuck... We all ready are.  No.  Proper methods of revenue exist for road repair.  Lotto alone could pay for it.

Well, I will always be a big fan of direct usage taxes. You use something, you pay for its maintenance.

Would you carry that into emergency services? I'm a relatively competent, careful person when it comes to things like fires. Should I be paying as much to the fire service as say, someone who drinks a 12 pack and puts the chip pan on?

We actually have usage fees here in NYC. If you call an ambulance there is a $500 fee attached to it. If you call out the fire department there is a fee attached to it. Cops are generally paid via a form of usage fee in the form of speeding and parking tickets. Yes, everyone pays a flat fee via their taxes, but there are additional usage fees on top of that.

jord wrote:

Jay wrote:

jord wrote:

Would you carry that into emergency services? I'm a relatively competent, careful person when it comes to things like fires. Should I be paying as much to the fire service as say, someone who drinks a 12 pack and puts the chip pan on?

We actually have usage fees here in NYC. If you call an ambulance there is a $500 fee attached to it. If you call out the fire department there is a fee attached to it. Cops are generally paid via a form of usage fee in the form of speeding and parking tickets. Yes, everyone pays a flat fee via their taxes, but there are additional usage fees on top of that.

What if someone calls the ambulance on behalf of you, like if you're out cold?

Then I get charged for the ambulance ride.

Macbeth wrote:

“ Competition kept prices down etc.”
And how exactly would that work in some place like the northeast where we don't have the space for multiple roads or going "the long way" isn't time or gas efficient? I also doubt enough money can be raised on tolls alone to maintain and pay off bridges. It would also be a mess for emergency services. O and our highways are also part of our national defense strategy.

Read the book if you want to argue. The .pdf is free.