tF-afrojap
Member
+124|7472|SF
After watching a fellow teammate hop into a multi million dollar vehicle and charging into the ocean for the 534234th time, it made me think what the game would be like if vehicles in the game were finite.

I've always thought combining a money system like the one found in CS would be interesting. Not for the individual soldier's weapon, but rather for commanders to decide what vehicles to spawn in. It’s would feel like an RTS at this point. Each army will start with a set budget, and will be up to the commander to decide how to spend it. Obviously I haven't given this idea much thought, and it has tons of holes.
The cool part though, it will add a shitload of strategy and depth for the commander role, and vehicles will no longer feel like toys that magically grow out of the ground.
On the flipside, it adds too much power to the commander. So if you get Mr.Noobiepants as commander, you-are-fucked. (it could make for some very interesting clan matches though.) Second, it adds too much micro management. There will be armor/chopper/plane requests nonstop, this is simply too much for a single person to manage. If we can come up with a way to delegate these tasks to other key roles it may work.. In any case, I just want to come up with ways to add more value to the vehicles in the game. Hell, Dice might put it in the next BF if we come up with something solid and throw enough e-tantrums.

EDIT:
Thought about what would happen in a specific situation if my idea was implemented.

I think we can all agree that the objective of the game should be to win the round. To make this happen we need to maximize the team’s efficiency. So say your team spends some cash to spawn in a bomber. No one would like to have a player with 0 hours in air to come along and take off in it. Here’s were it could get interesting, as a commander you will be able to pull up the team’s stats and see who would be most fit for the task. (or it could be simplified so it lists the top 3 players on the team who have the most experience in the air.) A commander could assign them to the bomber, thus giving them priority to enter the vehicle, or leave it be so anyone can man it. A few things would happen here. First, you aren’t playing with a bunch of strangers, but with people playing specialized roles, and excel at what they do. Second, it adds more meaning to your stats in a game, by helping you getting priority for things. Those folks at EA/Dice/Gamespy go though all the work to track of your stats already, might as well make more use of it. By adding more value to vehicles, jihad missions would be reduced as well, which is a nice side effect. As for locking new players out of the vehicles, this is true. It will definitely polarize the experience gap. But there is always single player to get practice or servers for new players.

Feel free to add to this if you got any thoughts. :\
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,095|7396|PNW

If vehicles were finite in the current game mode, noobs would be a huge detriment to gameplay, and would be booed and hissed out of a server faster than you could react.

I like your idea though. Allow me to flesh out a merciless game mode based upon it that could be implemented:

1. Land/sea transport vehicles always available, in the manner of the regular game mode. As are GD and AD emplacements.
2. Command resources exist on a greater scale than player resources.

1. Commander starts off with choosing an asset enable at 0 points.
2. Commander gains so many resources per point of his overall score.
3. Commander spends resources on vehicle upgrades
a. team vehicle armor (2 levels)
b. team vehicle speed (2 levels)
c. team vehicle firepower (2 levels)
4. At ten points, commander chooses second asset.
5. 3. Commander spending resources on vehicle upgrades, access to purchase of specialty vehicles
6. At twenty points, commander chooses third asset.
7. When all upgrades are purchased, a commander can use his points for heal area / repair area / cruise missile, SCUD, or whatever sort of strikes (if available in a map) / uncap flag defense bots (max 5) / air drone strikes / or, for the most expensive bit, carpet-bombing strikes
8. A commander may call a vote for all players to donate a certain percentage of their resources to the command pool.
9. Commander management must be done in the commander screen.

1. Player scores below -10 prevent any purchases. If you accidentally bombed a group of teammates, I guess you'd better earn it back before you die, or you'll be grounded until you can.
2. All kits and unlocks are selectable for players, at any score.
3. So many resources are awarded to a player per point of overall score.
4. A squad leader may use resources to call for a supply drop, independant of the commander. A squad leader may request resources from his squadmates to facilitate this.
5. At five overall points, a player may purchase armor/mobile AA in his base that will be locked to his name, until he abandons it.
6. At fifteen overall points, a player may purchase a helicopter or a jet (armor hand-me-downs, anyone?).
7. A maximum amount of a certain type of vehicle may be present on any one team at any time, even if unoccupied.
8. A squad-leader may request resources from a commander's pool to be distributed amongst himself and his squadmates.
9. Vehicle purchases must be made at a compatible flag. Aircraft will need helipads or runways, depending.
This game mode would likely have swift matches, and I'll be the first to admit that it gives an almost unfair advantage to a team that can gain early initiative. And it also copies a bit off of RTS-FPS's. The obvious limits on supply crates and vehicles would promote tighter teamwork and squad play to keep on top of the enemy. Too bad, like so many other things, that something this complex is really a "yeah right, you wish" tweak.

Before anybody explodes indignantly, this would just be another game mode, not designed to replace the existing one which is both fun and (mostly) balanced.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-04-13 03:00:40)

tF-afrojap
Member
+124|7472|SF
I think adding resources and upgrades is going too far.
But regardless you make a good point, it would definitly be a different game mode. By keeping it seperate from the normal game it will help the new guys get some experience and vehicle hours logged before they can get a vehicle in this mode. Thanks for the input.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,095|7396|PNW

Heh. Set the bar higher than is really needed, and then maybe they'll at least make use of some of it (which is really what you'd want).
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|7325
I believe Quake Wars Enemy Territory will be like this, with team assets controlled by a commander. Based on the screenshots I've seen there are even player built buildings, which to me is great. I've only played three (multiplayer) games that had commanders, they were Natural Selection (a half life mod), Savage (a little known fps/rts hybrid) and battlefield 2. In natural selection the setup was similar to what is described here, except without vehicles. The commander had a budget controlled by resource points on the map, and was in full control of who got what equipment on his team. But back on topic...

On top of the problems already described, it would make getting out of a base-rape situation even more impossible. Imagine being commander and spending your precious resources on a new helicopter just to have it atomized seconds later. Controlling who on your team got what resource would also make it almost impossible for new players to get equipment, as anyone but a fool commander would automatically grant the teams highest ranking players access to the team's assets. Not that I'd mind, but it might discourage many of the new or not-so-great players.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7466|Cologne, Germany

hmm..As I am a total teamplay buff, I generally like any idea that enforces teamplay on public servers. Still, I don't think the game would have the appeal it does if vehicles were finite and access was restricted to a selected group of players. That's a little too much RTS/Role-playing  for me.

Then again, there are still unranked servers to practice on, so the idea that you first have to earn some respect as a grunt before being allowed to steer tanks or pilot choppers/jets on ranked servers is quite interesting.

I agree that it would put quite a burden on the commander, since he would have to do more than just placing arty and send supplies.

Could be an interesting idea for a separate game mode. I am at work right now, so I really don't have the time to give this idea the thought it deserves. I'll do that over easter.
R0lyP0ly
Member
+161|7278|USA

tF-afrojap wrote:

After watching a fellow teammate hop into a multi million dollar vehicle and charging into the ocean for the 534234th time, it made me think what the game would be like if vehicles in the game were finite.

I've always thought combining a money system like the one found in CS would be interesting. Not for the individual soldier's weapon, but rather for commanders to decide what vehicles to spawn in. It’s would feel like an RTS at this point. Each army will start with a set budget, and will be up to the commander to decide how to spend it. Obviously I haven't given this idea much thought, and it has tons of holes.
The cool part though, it will add a shitload of strategy and depth for the commander role, and vehicles will no longer feel like toys that magically grow out of the ground.
On the flipside, it adds too much power to the commander. So if you get Mr.Noobiepants as commander, you-are-fucked. (it could make for some very interesting clan matches though.) Second, it adds too much micro management. There will be armor/chopper/plane requests nonstop, this is simply too much for a single person to manage. If we can come up with a way to delegate these tasks to other key roles it may work.. In any case, I just want to come up with ways to add more value to the vehicles in the game. Hell, Dice might put it in the next BF if we come up with something solid and throw enough e-tantrums.

EDIT:
Thought about what would happen in a specific situation if my idea was implemented.

I think we can all agree that the objective of the game should be to win the round. To make this happen we need to maximize the team’s efficiency. So say your team spends some cash to spawn in a bomber. No one would like to have a player with 0 hours in air to come along and take off in it. Here’s were it could get interesting, as a commander you will be able to pull up the team’s stats and see who would be most fit for the task. (or it could be simplified so it lists the top 3 players on the team who have the most experience in the air.) A commander could assign them to the bomber, thus giving them priority to enter the vehicle, or leave it be so anyone can man it. A few things would happen here. First, you aren’t playing with a bunch of strangers, but with people playing specialized roles, and excel at what they do. Second, it adds more meaning to your stats in a game, by helping you getting priority for things. Those folks at EA/Dice/Gamespy go though all the work to track of your stats already, might as well make more use of it. By adding more value to vehicles, jihad missions would be reduced as well, which is a nice side effect. As for locking new players out of the vehicles, this is true. It will definitely polarize the experience gap. But there is always single player to get practice or servers for new players.

Feel free to add to this if you got any thoughts. :\
Nice idea. Beginner commanders, "noobs", would have to have a smaller necessary kick vote due to he chance of ruining a game. Plus, don't you think it'd be cool to somehow be able to steal the other teams' money? Like destroying commander assets. If, like C&C Generals, a plane can drop of resources, and there is some sort or radar that "guides" the plane in, an enemny specops could blow the radar, and then the plane would either not fly at all, or fly to enemy, as that is the only radar it can "see"..all in all A++ idea.
R0lyP0ly
Member
+161|7278|USA
I was just thinking - what if your teams' team-points could translate into more money for the commander?? That give the team at least some say-so in their financial situation...
Dr.Battlefield
Got milk?
+150|7377
I like the idea but I'm afraid that we will have a problem with clans. Especially if it is a clan server.
(HUN)Rudebwoy
Member
+45|7380
And you could increase the budget of your team by picking the pocket of enemy soldier's corpses, or by finding their secret treasure! X marks the spot arrrr!
King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|7222|Seattle

I love this idea. Perhaps a "BF2-ADVANCED" server with a minimum requirement of Gunny or First Sgt. to get in.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
l41e
Member
+677|7273

I like this idea. And I have one addition: If the commander is in a vehicle or not buying vehicles, that would dramatically decrease the votes required to mutiny. Say, by 1/2 to 2/3.

[off-topic]Downy's sig picture. Just noticed. *laughs head off*[/off-topic]

Last edited by k30dxedle (2006-04-13 14:07:29)

Donald O' Brien
Member
+104|7328
I really like the idea; it's definitely got potential for something cool.  I realize that what you've got down so far is just a quick sketch, but I can see one possible abuse, and that deals with your plan for vehicle delegation.  Let's say that a commander can pull up the top 3 stats for players in a certain vehicle,  and then he can give them preference over others in the game.  This would definitely aid the team, but would it allow for newer players to build up their stats in said vehicle, so that they may hope to fly a jet or drive a tank someday?  Sure, they can practice in single player and unranked servers, increasing their skill,  but they would never be able to build up the requisite hours or stats in those vehicles.  A plausible solution to this could be ranked training servers, where you must be under a certain rank to join, but you can build up your vehicle stats or whatever else you saw fit.  All in all though, I'm pretty excited to see your idea get elaborated upon, and possibly implemented in the future!
R0lyP0ly
Member
+161|7278|USA

k30dxedle wrote:

I like this idea. And I have one addition: If the commander is in a vehicle or not buying vehicles, that would dramatically decrease the votes required to mutiny. Say, by 1/2 to 2/3.

[off-topic]Downy's sig picture. Just noticed. *laughs head off*[/off-topic]
Do you mean decrease the number of necessary votes by a factor of 1/2 or 2/3? I hope so, because if you meant from 1/2 people must vote to 2/3 must vote would mean MORE votes required...
dankassasin42o
Member
+68|7304|Reefersyde, CA
if you made vehicals only to spawn that way, then someone would have to allow TKing.  Cuz we cant let noobs who cant fly near the planes   

so your everyday noob takes off in 1 million dollar heli an flips it on take off.  your team just lost 1 mil, or you can shoot him an lose a ticket.   


I like it LET THE TKing BEGIN!!
tF-afrojap
Member
+124|7472|SF

Skruples wrote:

it would make getting out of a base-rape situation even more impossible.
Now that’s a problem. Hmmm. Well, fuck.. Thanks for destroying my idea SKRUPLES. Now pick up your mess! :p
I know that I don't want to fall back to the spawn protection method.. There’s gotta be a better way. If there were sufficient defenses in un-caps, baserapers might think twice about risking their equipment. The key is to make baseraping “not worth it” for them.. They have to take some sort of risk, otherwise baserapers have no incentive to pull back. The commander will know that it is useless to spawn anything into the main base. Perhaps he could save that cash and invest it in some sort of temporary uber defensive rail gun of doom. Or a bigass EMP shockwave. I know it's cheesy to the max, but you get the idea. Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Dr.Battlefield wrote:

I like the idea but I'm afraid that we will have a problem with clans. Especially if it is a clan server.
I was thinking clan matches would be the place where this game modes really shines. Can you elaborate on that?

R0lyP0ly: hahah just saw your sig :p

B.Schuss: Yeah, giving commanders the ability to designate players to vehicles might be too much. But if the vehicles were to cost the team, there has to be a system where more qualified players get priority to play roles which greatly influence the out come of the battle. I may sound like a freaking elitist here, but I think this is important. My idea works well if everyone is out to “win” the game, but falls short when the priority is to have the most “fun”. I enjoy both ways of play, but found it especially frustrating, when you are playing to win (for the war college specifically), and you see people fookin around in the chopper, and not doing their job. This is why I’m digging the idea of keeping this idea as a separate game mode, so at least people who are more serious about winning have an enjoyable option.

dankassasin42o wrote:

if you made vehicals only to spawn that way, then someone would have to allow TKing.  Cuz we cant let noobs who cant fly near the planes
I address this in my first post. Encouraging TKs is the last thing I wanna do.

Donald O' Brien wrote:

This would definitely aid the team, but would it allow for newer players to build up their stats in said vehicle, so that they may hope to fly a jet or drive a tank someday?  Sure, they can practice in single player and unranked servers, increasing their skill,  but they would never be able to build up the requisite hours or stats in those vehicles.
As unnamednewbie13 has suggested, making this a separate game mode would solve this problem. People would still be able to gain hours in normal ranked games, then join this new mode when they feel they have sufficient experience / hours under their belt. 

Thanks for your input guys.

OH, also the next BF is going to need one of these puppies. j/k
http://news.com.com/2300-1008_3-6053812.html?tag=st.rn
taken from this article
http://news.com.com/Are+laser+weapons+r … nl.e433%3E

Frikkin lasers maaaaang
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|7297|Colorado
I dont think it would work in a battlefield game, this sounds like an RTS + a FPS which would be far more deep than bf2 & I dont think most of the community could handle it or comprehend it for that matter.
Good ideas but with the money system then you get players puming out only the best unit & swarming as fast as they can, gg.

Besides they have their sights on 2142 which looks extremely weak atm.
l41e
Member
+677|7273

R0lyP0ly wrote:

k30dxedle wrote:

I like this idea. And I have one addition: If the commander is in a vehicle or not buying vehicles, that would dramatically decrease the votes required to mutiny. Say, by 1/2 to 2/3.

[off-topic]Downy's sig picture. Just noticed. *laughs head off*[/off-topic]
Do you mean decrease the number of necessary votes by a factor of 1/2 or 2/3? I hope so, because if you meant from 1/2 people must vote to 2/3 must vote would mean MORE votes required...
Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry if it wasn't clear.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,095|7396|PNW

From my early suggestion, resources would be gained on a per-match basis, like in Savage (if any of you noobs played that ), not globally.

Additionally, anything like this would just be another game mode. It would NOT replace regular gameplay. Nobody's telling you that you'd have to play it.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-04-14 14:53:58)

WarmPudgy
Member
+41|7213|Arkansas
i personally think there should be a minimum rank for certain vehicles
and the spawn time should be considerably longer as well

id say at least captain for jets, butterbar for choppers
msgt for tanks, gunny for apc's
and all ranks are able to operate transport vehicles including the blackhawk and sea cow

i think you should be able to prove your self on the ground before you pick up the big guns

Last edited by WarmPudgy (2006-04-14 18:41:38)

tF-afrojap
Member
+124|7472|SF
Additionally, with a system that adds varied value to different equipment, you can start giving armies more distinct flavors. Think of Starcraft, where Protoss's high cost high efficient army vs. the cheap and mass production army of the Zerg. I won't tweak the armies to that extreme, but you see my point. Different armies would require dramatically different tactics. For example, I think a good tweak would be something like, US getting superior equipment such as tanks, while the insurgents are far more knowledgeable of the local area, allowing them to cap flags A LOT faster. This makes it easy for the US to move in and secure flags, but will require them to leave some defenses before moving on, forcing them to spread out.
I dunno, this is sounding more and more like Quakewars. I think I'll just shutup and wait for the game to come out.
I would agree with TrollmeaT that this would be a really advanced mode or play, and while it boosts the strategy aspect by ten fold, would probably loose most of the BF2 audience. The BF2 gameplay has got a fuckload of potential for expansion. Hope to see some good mods in the future.
R0lyP0ly
Member
+161|7278|USA
I think having a minimum rank req's for vehicle usage is NOT a good idea :

(1) How can the lower-ranked players ever gain exp. in that vehicle if (he / she / it) cannot obtain usage?

(2) Even a total air suckass (the nemesis to plane whores), can gain rank by being a tank whore, thus giving him "rights" to that J-10 even though the lower-ranked-but-more-experienced-player could make better use
R0lyP0ly
Member
+161|7278|USA
Mostly like CS, i think each player should have his or her own bank acct and should get an influx of money via personal actions such as:

(1) Kills, assists, CP captures / defends, Team Points, Command Points

And lose $$$ by:

(2) Getting killed, TKing, team damage / vehicle damage

The team as a whole could* :

Lose $$$ by:

(1) Losing the round
(2) Losing a CP

Gain $$$ by:

(1) Winning a Round
(2) Capping a CP

*This means that the wgole team is deducted $1,000 (for EXAMPLE), and divide that by the number of players on the team to find the dollar amount deducted from each persons acct

Anywho, each team member could buy whatever they wanted, and only they could have access to it. IDK, maybe the vehicle is invisible / invincible to all those except the player until said player enters it. To prevent every PLA player on Wake from ordering a J-10, the carft itself could be so expensive so as to allow only 1 purchase per map.**

**There could also be a realistically set limit to available "slots" for armor - i.e. only the 5 can be on a map at one time - once one is destroyed, there is a "grace period", then there is another "slot" available for an individual to purchase the armor)


Questions? Comments? Concerns?
WarmPudgy
Member
+41|7213|Arkansas
you dont seem to understand it

with min requirements, youre forced to stay on foot untill you gather enough points to use a vehicle
so as you go along, you get access to better things
its so  you cant hop in a tank as a private, when a higher ranking person would put it to use better
R0lyP0ly
Member
+161|7278|USA

WarmPudgy wrote:

you dont seem to understand it

with min requirements, youre forced to stay on foot untill you gather enough points to use a vehicle
so as you go along, you get access to better things
its so  you cant hop in a tank as a private, when a higher ranking person would put it to use better
You need a bit more detail to clear it up (for me @ least) :

Could I, by chance, armor whore in a tank, a get enough points to use a J-10??

Please explain

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