Krappyappy
'twice cooked beef!'
+111|7443
these are all the design flaws which i can think of involving bf2. fanboys, flame freely.

conflicting design philosophy - bf2's vehicles are retardedly simple, which isn't a flaw in and of itself. this was designed to have that fact paced arcade feel, so that people could hop in and go. however, the infantry side of things points toward an attempt at 'realism.' iron sights, recoil rates, firing position, movement penalties, no jumping and shooting, and so on. a more coherent design strategy, where the WHOLE game is either realism or arcade based, would result in a better game.

symmetrical balance - this is one of the biggest weaknesses of the game. each army is a carbon copy of the other, with only a handful of significant differences. even so, those differences are so small that no adjustment in tactics is necessary. why aren't there maps that showcase the awesome manpower of the PLA? maybe the chinese receive a huge ticket advantage, with little vehicle support? how about real gameplay differences between the tanks? how about DIFFERENT CLASSES for each army? symmetrical balance is the game developer's cheap way out. warcraft 2 was symmetrically balanced, warcraft 3 wasn't, and it was better. it's 2006 FFS, we are past symmetrical balance. imagine a MMORPG where the races/classes are only cosmetically different, or an RTS with cloned armies - you can bet that they won't sell. we expect better these days, but why don't we hold BF2 to the same standard?

weak implementation of commander mode - this is somewhat map dependent. basically, the bigger the map and the more vehicles available, the less the commander matters. furthermore, the commander lacks the critical ability to ORGANIZE his team as he sees fit, instead having to rely on the whims of his subordinates to join any squad they wish. worst of all, players have no incentive to obey orders. if the commander gives an order whose purpose isn't immediately clear, it's a virtual guarantee that it will be ignored. how about point bonuses for completing objectives? how about letting the commander put unassigned players into squads of his choosing? as is, the commander is little more than an intelligence officer who points out where the bad guys are.

weak implementation of RPG mode - the ranking structure is terrible. once all the guns are unlocked, there is little reason to continue ranking up. having a prettier insignia might be motivation enough for some people, but not everyone. how about the earth-shattering concept of MAKING THE POINTS WORTH SOMETHING? instead of having unlocks at pre-set intervals, make it so players PURCHASE upgrades with the points they earn. beyond new weapons, we should be able to buy new outfits/accesories/cool ass-kicking sunglasses with the points we earn, and some of them should be ridiculously expensive to give the really hardcore people something to work toward.

there are many moe design elements which i don't agree with, but that's a matter of personal opinion. the ones above, however, are a matter of fact. they are glaring problems which keep bf2 in the slightly-above-average bin, and not the truly exceptional.

PS - and get some real voice acting ffs, the chinese voices are so bad as to be incomprehensible half the time, and tragically comical the rest of the time. i can only imagine how bad the arabic is.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7330|67.222.138.85
Absolutely agree with everything here.

Especially the ass-kicking sunglasses.
ROFLCOPTER_
Member
+8|7167

Krappyappy wrote:

these are all the design flaws which i can think of involving bf2. fanboys, flame freely.

conflicting design philosophy - bf2's vehicles are retardedly simple, which isn't a flaw in and of itself. this was designed to have that fact paced arcade feel, so that people could hop in and go. however, the infantry side of things points toward an attempt at 'realism.' iron sights, recoil rates, firing position, movement penalties, no jumping and shooting, and so on. a more coherent design strategy, where the WHOLE game is either realism or arcade based, would result in a better game.
i agree with this. planes are too easy to fly, tank battles are pathetically unrealistic (nobody in RL would ram), etc. But making the vehicles realistic would make nobody happy. instead, make the infantry less realistic and more quake-ish. get rid of the no shooting while jumping and the game gets a whole lot better.

symmetrical balance - this is one of the biggest weaknesses of the game. each army is a carbon copy of the other, with only a handful of significant differences. even so, those differences are so small that no adjustment in tactics is necessary. why aren't there maps that showcase the awesome manpower of the PLA? maybe the chinese receive a huge ticket advantage, with little vehicle support? how about real gameplay differences between the tanks? how about DIFFERENT CLASSES for each army? symmetrical balance is the game developer's cheap way out. warcraft 2 was symmetrically balanced, warcraft 3 wasn't, and it was better. it's 2006 FFS, we are past symmetrical balance. imagine a MMORPG where the races/classes are only cosmetically different, or an RTS with cloned armies - you can bet that they won't sell. we expect better these days, but why don't we hold BF2 to the same standard?
well, the usmc would own the shit out of most opponents, the MEC would be tking each other and driving car bombs into the usmc spawn, and the PLA would lag out the server from having so many people. Plus they'd be using old Soviet technology, so they would be like crushing a mass of ants.

weak implementation of commander mode - this is somewhat map dependpent. basically, the bigger the map and the more vehicles available, the less the commander matters. furthermore, the commander lacks the critical ability to ORGANIZE his team as he sees fit, instead having to rely on the whims of his subordinates to join any squad they wish. worst of all, players have no incentive to obey orders. if the commander gives an order whose purpose isn't immediately clear, it's a virtual guarantee that it will be ignored. how about point bonuses for completing objectives? how about letting the commander put unassigned players into squads of his choosing? as is, the commander is little more than an intelligence officer who points out where the bad guys are.
people make 1 man squads so they don't get teamswitched.
what's to stop a commander and his clanmates in a squad from stat padding by setting an order to "move here", and repeating it a million times? no points for completing objectives please.
but I do agree with being able to force people into squads. even if they don't do shit, you can at least see their class and what they're doing easier. in order for this to work, teamswitch needs to just be scrapped.

weak implementation of RPG mode - the ranking structure is terrible. once all the guns are unlocked, there is little reason to continue ranking up. having a prettier insignia might be motivation enough for some people, but not everyone. how about the earth-shattering concept of MAKING THE POINTS WORTH SOMETHING? instead of having unlocks at pre-set intervals, make it so players PURCHASE upgrades with the points they earn. beyond new weapons, we should be able to buy new outfits/accesories/cool ass-kicking sunglasses with the points we earn, and some of them should be ridiculously expensive to give the really hardcore people something to work toward.
no. losers who play 8 hours a day will have all the best stuff and destroy anybody within 500 feet. at least now it only takes a couple hundred hours to get all the guns, and even less to get only the guns you want.


there are many moe design elements which i don't agree with, but that's a matter of personal opinion. the ones above, however, are a matter of fact. they are glaring problems which keep bf2 in the slightly-above-average bin, and not the truly exceptional.

PS - and get some real voice acting ffs, the chinese voices are so bad as to be incomprehensible half the time, and tragically comical the rest of the time. i can only imagine how bad the arabic is.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7339

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Absolutely agree with everything here.

Especially the ass-kicking sunglasses.
but i want my cyborg ninja suit w/ katana
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
theDude5B
Cool member
+805|7374
what about pink car interiors for the Ladies?
Turtle
Member
+7|7380|Boulder, CO
weak implementation of RPG mode - the ranking structure is terrible. once all the guns are unlocked, there is little reason to continue ranking up. having a prettier insignia might be motivation enough for some people, but not everyone. how about the earth-shattering concept of MAKING THE POINTS WORTH SOMETHING? instead of having unlocks at pre-set intervals, make it so players PURCHASE upgrades with the points they earn. beyond new weapons, we should be able to buy new outfits/accesories/cool ass-kicking sunglasses with the points we earn, and some of them should be ridiculously expensive to give the really hardcore people something to work toward.

"no. losers who play 8 hours a day will have all the best stuff and destroy anybody within 500 feet. at least now it only takes a couple hundred hours to get all the guns, and even less to get only the guns you want."

So what? You can still make the unlocks come at the same time as before.

I primarily agree with the original poster on these ideas. Except balancing armies. How many varieties of soldier can there possibly be? At least.. how many useful ones?
Krappyappy
'twice cooked beef!'
+111|7443

ROFLCOPTER_ wrote:

well, the usmc would own the shit out of most opponents, the MEC would be tking each other and driving car bombs into the usmc spawn, and the PLA would lag out the server from having so many people. Plus they'd be using old Soviet technology, so they would be like crushing a mass of ants.
the idea behind assymetrical balance is that while each side is different, they're still balanced... the things you're talking about aren't assymetrical balance, it's not really anything. a well designed game would have sides that are completely different but still have the same chance to win.

ROFLCOPTER_ wrote:

people make 1 man squads so they don't get teamswitched.
what's to stop a commander and his clanmates in a squad from stat padding by setting an order to "move here", and repeating it a million times? no points for completing objectives please.
but I do agree with being able to force people into squads. even if they don't do shit, you can at least see their class and what they're doing easier. in order for this to work, teamswitch needs to just be scrapped.
objective bonuses are possible, just take a moment to think it through before trashing the idea. for example, give the commander a 'take this flag' command. if the squad obeys the command and gets the flag, everyone in the squad gets a couple extra points. set an order to defend a friendly flag, and the squad gets a little bonus for every kill they make while in that area. there's no stat padding because you only get points for accomplshing something. and if a squad is following orders and getting things done, then they SHOULD have a very high score.

ROFLCOPTER_ wrote:

no. losers who play 8 hours a day will have all the best stuff and destroy anybody within 500 feet. at least now it only takes a couple hundred hours to get all the guns, and even less to get only the guns you want.
first of all, losers who play 8 hrs a day already have all the best stuff, that's how RPGs work - whoever spends the most time gets the best gear. second of all, the purchasable things shouldn't affect gameplay, they should just be 'show-off' sorts of things that people can earn. look at the things i said: 'uniforms and accesories.' these don't give you any advantage in game.
Sgt.Davi
Touches Himself At Night.
+300|7266|England
This is EA


They rushed everything, flogged what should have been in the origianl at a later time (for mre money)


Recycled weapons for 4 armies

....



I totally agree with what you are saying

(Oh and i find it suprising EA just use the appeal of the gameplay (i.e how it looks) to sell rather than actual content)

(And i think they are being to cheeky trying to ruin BF2 so we will buy 2142. Wont work here)
mikescort2000
Member
+4|7291|Portsmouth,UK
Some excellent ideas maybe Dice should read this.   +1 for you good sir
Talon
Stop reading this and look at my post
+341|7384
Another problem is the point imbalance on maps. For example, a person playing a certain map (cough Karkand cough) is much more likely to get a higher score than a person playing another map like Zatar or Songhua.

An even worse problem is no incentive to win. Only the commander gets a bonus, so who wants to work as a team when you can get points??

Finally, main bases should either be both cappable or uncappable. Not one of each, its ridiculous and means one side doesnt have to worry about defence. All it does is that the uncappable team gets baseraped (Wake, Mass)or they cant be stopped as theres no need to defend (eg, Sharqi, with 3 uncaps). The best maps are the ones with both uncaps, or both caps. (eg Oman, Mashtuur, Ghost Town)
Quacki
Member
+9|7354

Krappyappy wrote:

symmetrical balance - this is one of the biggest weaknesses of the game. each army is a carbon copy of the other, with only a handful of significant differences. even so, those differences are so small that no adjustment in tactics is necessary. why aren't there maps that showcase the awesome manpower of the PLA? maybe the chinese receive a huge ticket advantage, with little vehicle support? how about real gameplay differences between the tanks? how about DIFFERENT CLASSES for each army? symmetrical balance is the game developer's cheap way out. warcraft 2 was symmetrically balanced, warcraft 3 wasn't, and it was better. it's 2006 FFS, we are past symmetrical balance. imagine a MMORPG where the races/classes are only cosmetically different, or an RTS with cloned armies - you can bet that they won't sell. we expect better these days, but why don't we hold BF2 to the same standard?
May I add that this symmetry gets even worse by using unlocked weapons? It would have been nice to have unlocks different for every army. For example, tier 1 unlock for support would be PKM for MEC and MG36 for USMC. Something like that. With the existing system, BF2 loses much of its flavor (I only use non-unlock weapons out of my desperate longing for difference in the armies).

For rather asymmetrical maps it do not even have to be different armies, just think of a Omaha Beach-like map, it would be impossible to start that with even numbers and even tickets. Wake Island could be improved that way, giving the USMC more people on their side, so the PLA has something to rape (and not standing half of the team standing at both ends of the island bored to death (getting no points *cough*)).

Besides, you are very right in every point you made.

We all play BF2, but as most of us are fans of the game, it does not stop us from thinking about it. The inequadecies stick out painfully. Look up this guy: Has got some complains, too.

Last edited by Quacki (2006-06-27 07:04:32)

PRiMACORD
Member
+190|7248|Home of the Escalade Herds
What you suggest is all good but costs more development time.

EA wants to spend as little time on there games as possible and milk as much as they can out of it.

Hopefully some brand new game company will make a really good bf2 like game. They'd just get bought out by EA tho
Bernadictus
Moderator
+1,055|7360

conflicting design philosophy - bf2's vehicles are retardedly simple, which isn't a flaw in and of itself. this was designed to have that fact paced arcade feel, so that people could hop in and go. however, the infantry side of things points toward an attempt at 'realism.' iron sights, recoil rates, firing position, movement penalties, no jumping and shooting, and so on. a more coherent design strategy, where the WHOLE game is either realism or arcade based, would result in a better game.
Agree, but remember that not everyone has a GeForce 7900GTX or Radeon 1900XT running in SLI/Crossfire mode. They have to make a middle way to suit the high and low end players.

symmetrical balance - this is one of the biggest weaknesses of the game. each army is a carbon copy of the other, with only a handful of significant differences. even so, those differences are so small that no adjustment in tactics is necessary. why aren't there maps that showcase the awesome manpower of the PLA? maybe the chinese receive a huge ticket advantage, with little vehicle support? how about real gameplay differences between the tanks? how about DIFFERENT CLASSES for each army? symmetrical balance is the game developer's cheap way out. warcraft 2 was symmetrically balanced, warcraft 3 wasn't, and it was better. it's 2006 FFS, we are past symmetrical balance. imagine a MMORPG where the races/classes are only cosmetically different, or an RTS with cloned armies - you can bet that they won't sell. we expect better these days, but why don't we hold BF2 to the same standard?
Don't agree, if there is one side with very little tank support then the map wouldn't be played or all would be USMC. And why other classes? Anti-Tank = Anti-Tank, it would be fun though to put the names in Arab or Chinese

weak implementation of commander mode - this is somewhat map dependent. basically, the bigger the map and the more vehicles available, the less the commander matters. furthermore, the commander lacks the critical ability to ORGANIZE his team as he sees fit, instead having to rely on the whims of his subordinates to join any squad they wish. worst of all, players have no incentive to obey orders. if the commander gives an order whose purpose isn't immediately clear, it's a virtual guarantee that it will be ignored. how about point bonuses for completing objectives? how about letting the commander put unassigned players into squads of his choosing? as is, the commander is little more than an intelligence officer who points out where the bad guys are.
Agree, the commander should be allowed to organize squads and unlock; locked half-full squads.
He should be able to 'recommend' a certain kit/role to players, and they might follow those orders if they would be awarded to do so.

weak implementation of RPG mode - the ranking structure is terrible. once all the guns are unlocked, there is little reason to continue ranking up. having a prettier insignia might be motivation enough for some people, but not everyone. how about the earth-shattering concept of MAKING THE POINTS WORTH SOMETHING? instead of having unlocks at pre-set intervals, make it so players PURCHASE upgrades with the points they earn. beyond new weapons, we should be able to buy new outfits/accesories/cool ass-kicking sunglasses with the points we earn, and some of them should be ridiculously expensive to give the really hardcore people something to work toward.
Again, framerate etc is an issue here. But putting extra's like laser dot etc and target painter in as unlocks would kick ass. Recieving 4+ points for painting a target would be rewarding!

and get some real voice acting ffs, the chinese voices are so bad as to be incomprehensible half the time, and tragically comical the rest of the time. i can only imagine how bad the arabic is.
The Arabic seems to be pretty close to what it should be. The UAV line is translated something like; unmaned plane launched.

Good Post!
bobroonie.bda
Member
+143|7305
yea i dont know man.. if your going to make it realistic and balanced the U.S would have the best gear / equipment / guns / helo's aircraft. Mec would get stuck with old russian crap. U.S would have way to much of an advantage that the opposite team would have to have 10 times the ticket count to compare.. So having the small differences between armies and such makes it a bit even. As for unlocks being so great that they can kill anything every where thats a bit far fetched. Tactics win battles, every kit / gun is useful if used correctly.

Its a war game not a war sim.. if it was a sim the U.S would be able to take on mec / china at the same time and then it would be a fair fight. But the U.S would walk straight through MEC and China in a head to head battle. And China would walk through MEC. Think about it the A1 has shells that go straight threw other tanks in 1 shot.. What kind of tank battle would that make if the U.S can just kill any other tank with uranium depleted shells? ect...

As for the commander being a bigger role in the battle.. hell no.. i dont need to be told how or what to play... i dont want to be told what i should be doing.. Spot the enemy give me supplies and drop arty.. leave the squad control and killing to me.

And not having anything "extra" in the game makes for better game play.. ie less bs for your pc to have to show.

Last edited by bobroonie.bda (2006-06-27 07:27:18)

cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|7319|NJ
It would be pretty phat to have a few maps that's do have the U.S. with all the tanks and lets say about 20 people on the team and the MEC had 46 with the basic sets. It would be a bloodbath but on the same point all the tickets would be the same number.

Think about going down that gauntlet, you got 20 guys in tanks and troop transports and have to drive down a small road with buildings on both sides and knowing there's 46 insuragent on both sides. And your goal is to capture 4 flags on the other side, that would definatly take some team work.
joker3327
=IBF2=
+305|7221|Cheshire. UK

bobroonie.bda wrote:

y

As for the commander being a bigger role in the battle.. hell no.. i dont need to be told how or what to play... i dont want to be told what i should be doing.. Spot the enemy give me supplies and drop arty.. leave the squad control and killing to me.
I thought the role of a commander was to give you as squad leader orders ...you then give youre squad orders...not just supply goodies??
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|7141|Montucky
As Far as Symmetrical balance goes......

EA should have done was what is known in most languages and cultures as RESEARCH, and I shall be speaking of my experience in the Marines. (D.M. 4thMEB[anti-terrorism] FTW!!) Before the Flame wars and negative Karma, you may say, “GO PLAY A REALISM MOD!!” I have, its called Project Reality Mini-Mod; they aren’t even in the ballpark, not even in the same parking lot near the ballpark.

A) The USMC doesn't in anyway shape or form us the M95 Bullpup. It’s the M82A1/A3.
B) Only Regimental Combat Teams, Military Police, or Security Guards us the Shotgun and it’s the M1017
C) Marines don't use the goddamn Blackhawk (there are however certain situations which the U.S. Navy provides transportation), they have their very own Helicopter Squadrons, consisting of the UH-1N Twin Huey, CH-53 Sea Stallion and the CH-46 Chinook.
D) Its not Spec Ops, its Recon or Force Recon
E) Where the fuck is the M-14DMR, it’s a semi-automatic, .308 Cal, Scoped Rifle. Now you may ask what the hell is it used for? Its used to provide accurate fire to suppress enemy targets, instead of wasting 300 rounds from a SAW when a Designated Marksman can eliminate the Target(s) with a few rounds.
F) “Spec Ops (Recon, and a few others)” use the Colt 1911A .45 Cal pistol
G) What about Mortars?
H) The Marines use 3 types of Machine guns, the M-249 Saw (LIGHT Machine gun), the M240G (Medium Machine Gun,) and the M-2 (HEAVY machine gun).
I) M24? Try M04A1/A3
J) MP5 has been phased out in favor of the M-4 (which is only used in Close Quarters Battle operations)
K) SRAW (replacement for the AT-4 which isn’t used yet). What about the AT4 (which is used by all USMC infantry) or the Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon (SMAW) and the FGM-148 Javelin Anti-Tank missile
L) What in the fuck is the F-35? How’s about the AV8 Harrier?
M) If you aren’t special you get the M16A2(or A3), a k-bar, and at least 8, that’s right 8 magazines for the M-16. By the way, they are MAGAZINES not clips, clips were used in the M-1 Garand (see the movie Saving Private Ryan, after a few rounds you’ll notice a click then a “ping” that’s the CLIP ejecting from the weapon)
N) How in the fuck does a wrench fix a big heaping pile of metal into a UAV trailer? Its gone, destroyed. You’ll need to call supply and order a new one.
O) Try jumping more than 5 times in a row with a full combat load on, its fucking hard.
P) Quit with the one shot one kill shit involving the M95, if that were to happen every asshole with BF2 would be a goddamn sniper. By the way if you are “under arms against any country” you can use any weapon and any means necessary to kill an enemy combatant as long as your rules of engagement apply. Which means you can use the main gun on a Main battle tank to kill a single person.
Q) Claymores require 2 types of triggers for it to detonate, either by tripping a wire or by a remote switch.
R) C4 is used by Anti-Tank assault men, Recon, or Explosive Ordinance Disposal.
S) Their aren’t any Medics in the Marines, they be Corpsman which is apart of the U.S. Navy attached to the Marine Corps to provide medical support. They carry an M-9 Pistol or a M16.


*****FLAME ON*****

Last edited by [1FR]S3v3N (2006-06-27 08:31:36)

bobroonie.bda
Member
+143|7305

joker3327 wrote:

bobroonie.bda wrote:

y

As for the commander being a bigger role in the battle.. hell no.. i dont need to be told how or what to play... i dont want to be told what i should be doing.. Spot the enemy give me supplies and drop arty.. leave the squad control and killing to me.
I thought the role of a commander was to give you as squad leader orders ...you then give youre squad orders...not just supply goodies??
because anyone can be a commander.. How many times have you gotten orders from a commander that didnt know what he was doing? I play to win.. I know what needs to be done if the enemy is spotted. You want me to defend a point.. show me where the enemy is comming from and ill decide whether its a better tactic to attack the enemy or bunker down.. Just because the commander is called the commander doesnt mean he can dictate the battle as well as others. Squad leaders roll is to decide whats best for his squad, and where his squad needs to go.. A commanders job is to assist the team. How many times has a commander given you orders to attack a point your already headed? And alot of the time i just tell my guys where to go over voip so i dont have the purple shield or dagger on my mini map. spot the enemy, tell me where there at, hook up supplies and a vechile, drop some arty.. let me know what flags are free of enemy's. assist the team..
CLEVERLITTLETROJAN
I killed you,you just don't know it yet
+18|7237|birmingham,uk
the big problem i see with commander mode is the commander gives you orders and then forgets about you and you are still sitting there defending a base that no one on the other team is coming for

Last edited by CLEVERLITTLETROJAN (2006-06-27 08:43:18)

d3v1ldr1v3r13
Satan's disciple on Earth.
+160|7309|Hell's prison

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Absolutely agree with everything here.

Especially the ass-kicking sunglasses.
but i want my cyborg ninja suit w/ katana
Play Metal Gear Solid 2...or 4 when it comes out!
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7339

d3v1ldr1v3r13 wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Absolutely agree with everything here.

Especially the ass-kicking sunglasses.
but i want my cyborg ninja suit w/ katana
Play Metal Gear Solid 2...or 4 when it comes out!
im getting 4 already finished 2 and 3

for the f35: its a future aircraft for the marine corps, navy and airforce. F35A for airforce, F35B for marine corps and F35C for navy
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7308|United States of America
I'll tell you what's wrong with it, the large amount of morons and buttholes who are playing it all the time. That's why you're lucky when you can find a server that is actually good with lenient admins and rules but still abiding by all necessary requirements for a ranked server. Still, those a-holes anger me to a large degree.

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