Twist
Too old to be doing this sh*t
+103|7090|Little blue planet, milky way
This is every bit as much a complaint, as it is a suggestion.
But has ANYONE ever noticed how you get "teamplay" points for reviving/giving ammo/healing, repairing etc. And when all is said and done, the fact that your SL has to stay OUT of the action (cap'ing less flags, getting fewer kills etc.) in order for his team to do better, thus being PUNISHED for promoting good teamwork ?
At the same time "Teams" readily accept orders from the commander but dont do ANYTHING to follow them ? As someone else put it: "everyone just spawns at the spawn closest to the enemy uncap to go raping there totally oblivious to flags being lost behind them".

I tried finding some old threads on this matter, but was only semi successfull. So here's my "idea" for improovements that might inspire more teamplay (yes, these ideas are also colored by the fact that I often choose to play commander or SL, and not just a Squaddie who gets to spawn a bit closer to a good spawnraping point once in a while):

1) The SL gets 10% of the total of his squad added to his score, however, the SL will get 10% less points for any points he racks up himself. The reasoning for this being that then people wont WANT to become SL unless they actually want their TEAM to do well, not just themselves. Ie. Now you will no longer become SL simply to avoid being put on the other team, or have the ability to ask for supplies, because you will get LESS points from being SL than a lone wolf, if you dont have team members.

2) Lone wolves should get an automatic deduction of 5 points each round regardless of their score, for not being a part of a squad (teamwork). This would encourage people to join squads. Ofcourse this should not be implemented untill such a time as the "no squads"/"limited number of squads" bugs are fixed, so that everyone actually gets a chance to join/create squads if they want to.

3) The commander should be able to give points to individual squads at given time intervals, as a reward system. For instance rewarding a single Squad of his choice every 90 sec (or so). The SL gets 2 points, and the members get 1 each. This way the commander gets to choose who does a good job, and can reward people for it. This should encourage people to follow orders.

4) To discourage people from NOT following orders, the commander should have the ability to give NEGATIVE points (ie. punishment) instead of (or indeed both if need be) the reward.

5) Limit the amount of orders a commander (or SL) can issue to a squad within a certain timeframe (ie: one order every 2 minutes), and give points if the last order was successfully executed within the last x seconds. Possibly subtract points if the order WASNT followed (though this could be bad in case you die trying, you shouldn't be punished for it, I know). The only problem I see here is really to determine if the order was actually followed.

I realize that this is, same as everything else, possible to screw up bigtime and have people pad their stats on servers without timelimit. But hey, people pad all the time, so whats' an extra point once in a while anyway ? Screw your concerns of exploit, and think of the basic concept. To promote ACTUAL teamwork, not just something the programmers CALL teamwork.

In point of fact, I'd love to see the entire point system reworked, but that wont happen, so we can only think up small improovements. If I could rework the point system, I'd definately give 20 points for a kill, and just put the rank requirements at 10 times the current level. Then it's be a lot easier to give "half" points (that would then mean 5 points if you made averything x10) than it is now. This way cap assists could be divided among all assisters, repair and healing points could be given gradually, reviving could be given less points the longer the downed player was wounded, and ammopoints could be given based on the amount of ammo the reciver picked up (rather than netting the support 1 full point for a single grenade). More points could be given for strategic destruction based on the number of assets present on the map, kill assist points could be given to more than one person, damage assist (i lui of a better word) for damaging enemy vehicles could easily be given etc. etc.
But that's a topic for another discussion. Maybe when 2142 comes out. Meanwhile I just want to promote ACTUAL tamwork, not just "paper teamwork".
I like this method, but much stat-padding will happen with guideline 3:

3) The commander should be able to give points to individual squads at given time intervals, as a reward system. For instance rewarding a single Squad of his choice every 90 sec (or so). The SL gets 2 points, and the members get 1 each. This way the commander gets to choose who does a good job, and can reward people for it. This should encourage people to follow orders.
Basically, a high ranked player can help his lower ranked squad leader friend by "rewarding" him constantly. He could actually make quite some points off this.

Last edited by TheCanadianTerrorist (2006-06-24 15:58:43)

MrPredictable
Member
+14|7254

TheCanadianTerrorist wrote:

I like this method, but much stat-padding will happen with guideline 3:

3) The commander should be able to give points to individual squads at given time intervals, as a reward system. For instance rewarding a single Squad of his choice every 90 sec (or so). The SL gets 2 points, and the members get 1 each. This way the commander gets to choose who does a good job, and can reward people for it. This should encourage people to follow orders.
Basically, a high ranked player can help his lower ranked squad leader friend by "rewarding" him constantly. He could actually make quite some points off this.
that is the main flaw with that plan, maybe if you could only give points to a squad that has capped a flag or killed somthing in the last minute or so
jax
Member
+12|7335
not a bad idea, i like it but i have to admit that thecanadianterrorist is right about point farming but then people will point farm anyways so i surpose it dosnt mater. oh and if a squad leader was going to beat the commander by say 1 or 2 points the commander could -2 his ass a couple of times and then take that vertual shiney golden badge for himself lol
Paco_the_Insane
Phorum Phantom
+244|7212|Ohio
Well, i think the rewarding of squads shouldnt be based on a commander. but the rewarding of the whole squad for capturing the bases and not just the individual, even if theyre not all in range, because maybe some members are defending the cappers, is a good idea. this will reward teamwork, and also incourage people to join squads.

other than that, these are all good ideas
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|7226|BC, Canada
i can see some horrible problems with #4
Lucien
Fantasma Parastasie
+1,451|7220
3 and 4 are too easily abused. On the other hand, all of your other idea's are good!
https://i.imgur.com/HTmoH.jpg
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|7117|CH/BR - in UK

Twist wrote:

"no squads"/"limited number of squads" bugs are fixed, so that everyone actually gets a chance to join/create squads if they want to.
That would, though, get snipers to make squads - squadspam - just so they could get supplies and UAV's to know where the enemies are. If it went really bad, there could be up to 20 squads on one team (based on a 64player server).
Now tell me with a straigh face that that promotes teamwork.
BrOk_MoRdU
Psychotic Sniper Inc.
+76|7119|The Land of Claywhore
3) The commander should be able to give points to individual squads at given time intervals, as a reward system. For instance rewarding a single Squad of his choice every 90 sec (or so). The SL gets 2 points, and the members get 1 each. This way the commander gets to choose who does a good job, and can reward people for it. This should encourage people to follow orders.


4) To discourage people from NOT following orders, the commander should have the ability to give NEGATIVE points (ie. punishment) instead of (or indeed both if need be) the reward.


Sorry but people will find a way to exploit and noobify #3 and #4.The rest sound like reasonable changes that would encourage more teamwork and counter the squad hopping change by allowing the SL to earn team points for being a spawn point to help cap flags.
How about they limit 3 and 4 to a maximum of 10 points (making it 20 for the Squad Leader) so people can't stat-pad beyond that?
manitobapaintballa
Member
+32|7186
the only part i disagree with is #3 and i know there are people that i won't give points to just because of there attitude (i got a couple of whiners on my server good players but they are hypocrates and i won't give em points) and i know there are people who think the same way i do


but it is a good idea
Snake
Missing, Presumed Dead
+1,046|7133|England

Only the other day, I was playing FuShe as commander on Chinese. Our guys were out capping flags, but we lost the 2 nearest our uncap (Bridge Camp and Upper Camp - 2 vital flags). We had a group of 2 snipers and 2 Support guys sat on the hill above the Upper Camp for about 10minutes. I issued them orders to attack it, gave them UAV after UAV, dropped jeeps for them to move a little quicker, but they refused to move. DESPITE the flag being completely empty for 5minutes (the vehicles respawned and sat there), they refused to move.
In fact, when they did move, it was only when I got on the Mic to the SL saying "you useless cunt, fucking move. That CP has been empty for 5minutes, we are losing, and you are sat staring at a pretty view. Help out or get out" (it was something like that...maybe thats why I get kicked for "abusive behaviour )
Anyway, by the time they did cap it, it was like 150-75 in the USMC favour. It was too late and we lost the game. If they had captured that one, and onto the Bridge Camp just up the road, a lot earlier, then it would have been another story all together. Useless twats, more interested in, well, lying on a hill with a scope looking at a tree whilst having a fag than helping our team out.

So, I came up with this

I think, that instead of numbers 3 and 4 (which I have to agree, are open to a lot of padding exploitation), it should be based on a squad performance determined by their actions by program coding (provided they get it right of course...)

If a SL is issued an order, such as "Attack this position", the SL (and also his squad) should be encouraged to carry it out - not just sit there and continue to rape a spawnpoint or die over and over (or, sit on a hill for 10minutes having a smoke).
Also, the Commander should be encouraged to give out orders, and specifically, to each individual squad. There is no point in telling a squad to take a CP on the other side of the map.
The commander needs to be encouraged to take an active part in issuing live orders for squads to carry out, and if that squad achieves its goal, then everyone involved gets "bonus" points.

So, if that particular squad takes a flag under orders from the Commander, then the commander should get 4 commander points for himself (encouraging the commander to actually issue orders - there are way too many commanders who just sit there and drop vehicles, arty and UAV for you and that is it - they refuse to give orders). They need to be encouraged to take a more active part in the organisation of their squads, and giving them a reward is the way to do it.
Although this could happen when the Commander sees them near a CP when they Neutralise it, so this additional score could only occur if the order is given at least 1minute prior to the squad even neutralising the CP, let alone capturing it. So the order would have to be issued 1 minute prior to the squad neutralising a CP.
Then, at squad level, the SL should gain an additional point for the neutralise (whether he assisted or not) and an additional 1 point for the capture of that flag (again, whether he assisted or not).
Any members of the squad who helped with this, and stayed alive the whole time whilst capping it, should also get the same bonuses when neutralising and capturing. The SL should get the bonus regardless since he is "carrying out orders". So this would enable him to sit on a hill near it and spawn his squad members to go and cap the flag.
So, the SL will gain 2 points if he is sat on a hill away from the action. The actual person who neutralised and captured the flag, will gain a total of 6 points, and assisters (in the same squad) will get 4 points.

In fact, it might be an idea to just double the additional points for the SL (so, 2 points for a neut and 2 for a capture), for those rare SL's who do sit out of the way and act as a mobile spawnpoint.


Also, if a commander doesnt issue orders, but the SL does (and it can be done, I often do it), then the above bonuses still apply, but the commander wouldnt gain the additional 4 points. Not even the SL should get the 4 points (to prevent clashing of orders and greedy SL's trying to take all the points).

This would not only encourage more people to join up in squads rather than be a lone wolf, but also encourage the entire squad to follow orders and encourage SL's to take an active part in the team and squad - not just 1man squads where its the SL alone.
These bonuses should not apply to a 1man squad - there should be at least 3members of that squad otherwise you are gona get a lot of 1man SL squads capping CP's under "orders".

This should also apply for the defend order, but only if that CP got neutralised by the enemy team.
Maybe even repairing/mining/demolitions orders, although that could get a little more complicated - but is still within reason.



I believe, that with this system, you would encourage:
- Better teamplay
- Better squad play
- Better commanders
- More awareness of the battlefield (i.e. losing valuable CP's at the back)
- Fewer lone wolves
- A better game

Last edited by Snake (2006-06-25 01:27:06)

MrPlatinum
Member
+0|7231
I think you should be a little more cautious on the part of the commander being able to give points because i was playing in a server the other day when a private somehow was able to be commander.  Another thing that could be added is that if someone is lone wolf then every few minutes or so they should lose a point or 2 until they get into a squad.  That would be a pretty good start to encouraging a little more teamwork, but not much though.   Just a thought.
Talon
Stop reading this and look at my post
+341|7327
I'm gonna sort of summarise what peeps have said into my own idea, so thanks for the ideas.

Lone Wolves:

Lone Wolves use the point system as it now.

Squad Members:

Squad Members follow the orders of the SL and commander in order to receive bonus points However, they can also receive negative points. A squad must contain at least 3 members to be elgible for this. The squad leader must also check a "Teamwork" option. Squads with below 3 members, or who havnt checked the "teamwork" option, function as squads do now, and cant receive or lose extra points. This allows clans, friends etc to play together woithout worrying about the commander. When a squad is set to teamwork, all members are sent a vote. If 2 yes votes are recieved, the squad goes in teamwork mode and all the no's leave the squad automatically.


Squad Leaders:

Same as now.

"Teamwork" Squad Leaders:

Receive 10% of squads score at the end of a round. A "top-scoring squad" leader receives 25% of his squads score, as long as he has been commanding the squad for at least half the match until the finish. Can give up to 5 orders, chained together. Recieives neutralise and flag-capture assists if any of his squad captures a flag. Gets 25% less points himself. Cannot play the kits Assault, Spec Ops and AT. Must accept orders from commander, but can still request new orders if unhappy with current ones. Has a new radio call "order accomplished, commander".

Commander:

Can give orders to SLs. New orders are "capture/defend this flag". Squad members receive one point each for each successful order carried out. The crtieria for these are:

Capture Flag: Squad must capture a flag within 4 minutes and hold it for 4 minutes.
Defend Flag: Squad must stay within 50m of flag and defend it for 4 minutes.
Set Demolitions: Squad must destroy all bridges in a a 50m radius around point. If set on the enemy mainbase, squad must destroy arty, UAV and radar. Both objectives get 5 minutes. Squad must also stop them being repaired for another 2 minutes after they've blown them up.

Commanders can only set one order, but SL can set auxiallry ones. For example, a commander will set "attack this flag". A SL will then set 5 move orders showing the squad which route to take.

Every 5 minutes, a commander can reward a squad by giving it the SL 2 points and the members 1 point. Or, he can punish a squad, by giving the squad leader -2 and the members -1. He cannot do both, he must wait another 5 minutes after each.



At any time, a squad can become non-teamwork, or go lone wolves if the commander is abusing the system.
Snake
Missing, Presumed Dead
+1,046|7133|England

I still dont like the idea of the commander giving out points...he will always give it to his teammates. Imagine a clan on a public server, they have a 4star General as commander and 6 of them in a squad. Even if that squad stays and "defends" the uncap, hes gona give them the points every time - never any other squad.
I think the whole thing is open to abuse and small amounts of padding.

The whole idea of the SL giving directions and waypoints with which to get to a flag, is a good idea, but surely is a little bit annoying? If we were to do that, then I think the squad should have an "ASL" - Assistant Squad Leader, who purely acts as a spawn point, but, can only be a spawn point if the SL is alive and is currently under live orders. Considering the amount of waypoints and "commander work" that you'd be giving the SL, hes hardly going to be in battle much, assuming they do the job correctly. And by the sounds of it, probably wont even get chance to leave the main base.

The Demolitions idea, well, imagine that on Wake...they'd have 5mins to take out 3 artillery, get in a boat, hit the essex and then take out the UAV and Sat - without the SL dropping a supply crate to repair arty and without getting blown up by a jet or heli. The idea of keeping them from being repaired for 2mins wont ever work, since 95% of commanders will drop supplies to repair their arty straight away.

And I agree, lone wolves shouldnt be penalised. However, they should be encouraged to join squads. If they dont, then who cares? A squad who is capping flags all over the place wont be needing a sniper who sits on a hill all round.
Talon
Stop reading this and look at my post
+341|7327
The Demolitions idea, well, imagine that on Wake
Naturally, the times need to be adjusted for different maps- Smoke Screen and Oman for example, the arty is easy to get to.
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|7117|CH/BR - in UK

Talon wrote:

"Teamwork" Squad Leaders:
Cannot play the kits Assault, Spec Ops and AT.
Why?
Talon
Stop reading this and look at my post
+341|7327
Because they arent very TW-orientated kits.
LoMaX
Member
+24|7102|Sweden is banned from hell ;)
Why not just make some more cool medals for Teamplayers. For Instance:

- Badges: Elite SL Bagde, Veteran SM Kill Assist Badge, Specialist Teamwork Medal (every 10000p) and so on..
- And perhaps some bonus if a squad consists of 5 different classes.
- I liked number 1, 2 and 5.

And to make lone wolfs team players.. they have no UAV (for ie.)

Nice tread by the way!
/LoMaX

Last edited by LoMaX (2006-06-26 07:06:22)

sgt.sonner
the electric eel has got me by the brain banana
+146|7100|Denmizzark!!
Pretty much all good ideas.. still everything will be abused as long as there are fuck-tard players around..
genius_man16
Platinum Star whore
+365|7245|Middle of nowhere

SargeV1.4 wrote:

3 and 4 are too easily abused. On the other hand, all of your other idea's are good!
Mr.E
HakLaw in the house
+103|7127
its a game?
Zaitik
Member
+3|7143

Twist wrote:

4) To discourage people from NOT following orders, the commander should have the ability to give NEGATIVE points (ie. punishment) instead of (or indeed both if need be) the reward.
if that happens this wuld be an army, not video game
antin0de
Member
+44|7234|SL,UT
I'm only in favor of the "SL gets 10%" clause.  I played for 5 hours on Saturday, leading the best squad ever, on the best team I'd played with in ages.  I didn't lose a single round all day. 

My squad and I capped flags like it was our JOB (the loading screen showed that one of my squad had 7 cap assists, and he wasn't even there for all of them). 

A few of these rounds, I was on top of the scoreboard, like "Gold star, fuck yeah!"

Alas, the gold star goes to the stupid commander, for all the points he earns from the hard work of my squad and myself.  Meanwhile his KDR stays as protected as his ass while he does nothing more than re-iterate the commands I've given my squad.  And waste vehicle drops on enemy soldiers.

Commanders suck.
romanov_666
Member
+0|7060
Points 3 and 4 would result in major stats padding and bias.
I would hate for an unknown commander to be determining my points for the round, leave to good old killing and teamwork

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