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2005-10-25 11:13:29
EnemySpy
Member
+0|7027
Right, I sometime get a little bored with fighting my own team to see who gets to fly next, or who gets the best tank, etc.

So, during this moments, I like to see how many planes I can shoot down from the ships AA before 1 of the following happens;

A) I get bored of being killed (and having a negative score).
B) The pilot gets bored of killing me (and decides there are more peacful places to bomb without having me as a distraction).
C) The pilot gets bored of me killing him (yeh, like this is going to happen).
D) I get booted from the server for excessive team killing and excessive vehicle damage.

9/10 I can safely say, that the answer will be 'D' closely followed by 'A'.  The AA sucks.  You can quite happily lock onto an enemy aircraft and if there happens to be one of your aircraft anywhere in your line of site, you can guarantee you will hit your own.  The range and accuracy of the AA also sucks.  Unless the aircraft is coming straight at you (in which case your dead anyhow, because the pilot is shooting your ass to shreds) you are not going to get a kill.  Leading the aircraft doesn't work either.

I wish they would fix this, because using the AA on the aircraft carriers is espcially important for helping decide who is going to win.  If you have some good pilots on the opposing team who continuously bomb the carrier deck, then the US team is going to lose through the lack of air support.

I am also sick of the lamers who punish because I have shot them by accident.  In some cases, I have also shot down the plane which was about to shoot them out of the sky.  People should really use AA before they punish people for shooting them out the sky, especially when that person was trying to help them.

gggrrrrrr
2005-10-25 11:23:41
dsb
Member
+0|7044
How are they supposed to know you were trying to help them.

dude1[Teamkilled]dude2

isn't very revealing.
2005-10-25 11:27:31
[Ahazi] Kaika
The Suicidal Soldier
+3|7028

dsb wrote:

How are they supposed to know you were trying to help them.

dude1[Teamkilled]dude2

isn't very revealing.
I'd say the subsequent q+sorry spamming?
2005-10-25 11:30:02
=[4th]=SlayThem
Destroy Noob Cannons
+96|7100

dsb wrote:

How are they supposed to know you were trying to help them.

dude1[Teamkilled]dude2

isn't very revealing.
considering you cannot control heat seaking missles that are locked on an ENEMY, it's always an accident. and what else, besides another plane, is going to shoot you out of the sky.. seriously now.
2005-10-25 12:06:03
EnemySpy
Member
+0|7027

=[4th]=SlayThem wrote:

considering you cannot control heat seaking missles that are locked on an ENEMY, it's always an accident. and what else, besides another plane, is going to shoot you out of the sky.. seriously now.
Exactly.  Just now, an enemy helicopter was in the air next to a friendly...  I had a big X against the friendly and a diamond lock against the enemy.  I fired both AA missiles, the enemy moved to avoid the lock, and both missiles went for the friendly.

I certainly hope these missiles don't use the same algorithms the real things do.
2005-10-25 12:08:57
dsb
Member
+0|7044

=[4th]=SlayThem wrote:

My point wasn't that your TK was intentional, rather they have no way of knowing HOW you killed them.  They don't know if you were in another plan thinking they were a bad guy or what.

Some, like me, will say that if you don't know don't punish.  But I'm just trying to show that the person most likely has NO IDEA why/how they were TK'd, only that they were.  Don't take it all personal like they were watching you play, saw the TK was an accident and said "Ah fuck it.  Punished!"
2005-10-25 12:25:10
EnemySpy
Member
+0|7027

dsb wrote:

My point wasn't that your TK was intentional, rather they have no way of knowing HOW you killed them.  They don't know if you were in another plan thinking they were a bad guy or what.

Some, like me, will say that if you don't know don't punish.  But I'm just trying to show that the person most likely has NO IDEA why/how they were TK'd, only that they were.  Don't take it all personal like they were watching you play, saw the TK was an accident and said "Ah fuck it.  Punished!"
If you had spent much time in an aircraft or an AA position, you would know that (as =[4th]=SlayThem said) it is almost impossible to shoot an aircraft down from an AA position, and that as an an aviator, it is impossible to target a friendly aircraft - so any missiles hitting a friendly aircraft (unless fired at point blank range) are going to be accidental.
2005-10-25 12:36:51
dsb
Member
+0|7044

EnemySpy wrote:

If you had spent much time in an aircraft or an AA position, you would know that (as =[4th]=SlayThem said) it is almost impossible to shoot an aircraft down from an AA position, and that as an an aviator, it is impossible to target a friendly aircraft - so any missiles hitting a friendly aircraft (unless fired at point blank range) are going to be accidental.
EnemySpy, it seems my posts are wasted on you because you are COMPLETELY missing the point.  What I'm saying is when TK'd you don't always know what type of weapon took you out.  The game doesn't tell you how you are shot down when you are TK'd.  It just says:
player1 [Teamkilled] player2

So while your deductive logic is all great, the fact that the person may not know that it was a missile that killed him means that he also may not know it was accidental.  Next time you feel like chiming in, EnemySpy, don't just pick a side and spout off at the mouth.

I'm not disagreeing with SlayThem's contention that the AA is BF2 sucks.  In fact, I didn't bring up the AA in BF2 at all.  If you had actually read my posts you'd know that. I'm offering a point of view to SlayThem that might help him take TK punishes less personally and therefore spend less time pissed off about them.  I don't need your clarification.  I understand him fine, thanks.
2005-10-25 12:39:22
dsb
Member
+0|7044

=[4th]=SlayThem wrote:

dsb wrote:

How are they supposed to know you were trying to help them.

dude1[Teamkilled]dude2

isn't very revealing.
considering you cannot control heat seaking missles that are locked on an ENEMY, it's always an accident. and what else, besides another plane, is going to shoot you out of the sky.. seriously now.
I've got a clan mate who can TV-missile a plane from a helicopter pretty much at will.  Is that "serious" enough?
2005-10-25 12:47:26
chuyskywalker
Admin
+2,439|7114|"Frisco"

And Slays point was that while you're in a plane, how else can you get team killed but by a rouge AA missle? Not like some idiot driver is gonna run a buggy into you -- and if a friendly plane nails you, well that ones rather obivous from the shards of plane sprikling down on the ground troops who are laughing at you both.
2005-10-25 16:03:35
DrDestruction
Utilityman
+1|7045
Okay, you know what?  Im going to end this right now with a little example.

chuyskywalker, let's say you are playing Karkand with me, and we are assaulting an outpost.  We are both waiting by the hotel outpost, Im waiting outside the hotel outpost, and you are preparing to assault it.

You run in the Hotel outpost.  Suddenly, your screen switches to the map, and it says on the upper left of the screen:

DrDestruction [Teamkills] Chuyskywalker

What do you do?  Let's say that you assumed I shot you so that I could cap the flag and get points for it.  After all, how else could you have died?  I was standing right with you and I knew you were a friendly.

Now I get all mad at you - I want to know your reasoning behind punishing me, because I simply threw a grenade into the outpost and you suddenly ran into it before I could warn you, and it blew you up.  You apologize for your mistake.

Now, lets assume that the tag said:

DrDestruction [Hand Grenade] chuyskywalker

Would you have maybe realized what had happened, and forgiven me?  Again, I would hope so.

See the point?  The game DOES NOT specify which weapon killed you in the case of a TK.  THIS is the major problem - rogue AA is not the only thing that can kill a jet.  Another jet crashing into you can kill a jet, a rogue tank shell can kill a jet, hell, how about a friendly machine gun?  That can kill a jet, perhaps fired from the top of a tank by a friendly that didn't see you.  Bottom line is that it doesn't specify, and because of that, you cannot expect mercy when you TK a jet by accident from AA.

It is your mindset exactly - "Well what else could possibly kill me?" - that causes people to punish for these sorts of things - they simply feel it was done on purpose.

With that all said, dsb, I completely agree.  Aircraft TK's are a bitch and while I dont think they should be punishable either way (jets TKing teammates or teammates TKing jets)(except for shooting someone/the plane to get the plane for yourself), it's a fact of life that must be dealt with.

There are worse things in BF2.  Get over it.
2005-10-25 16:23:49
dsb
Member
+0|7044
thanx for the much more clear illustration man...that's what I get for not using specifics...
2005-10-25 16:54:50
Rick-77
Member
+2|7114|Los Angeles, Ca
Dr D you make a great point ..Which I understood in your first post....I hope they address this in the next patch.It would definetly help in decideing to punish or not to punish.
2005-10-25 23:13:30
redfoxster
Chopper Whore Extraordinaire
+3|7040

[Ahazi] Kaika wrote:

All the other pilots prefer to pull up after missing a target on the ground.  Me?  Well, let's just say I'm more thorough.
Rofl
2005-10-26 02:32:29
McCullough
Member
+7|7105
The only way to shoot down a jet with AA is if the jet is flying in a straight line away from you. IF the pilot makes the slightest turn you will miss. I mean if the AA were as effective on the enemy as they are on friedly aircrafts we wouldnt have this problem at all.

Last edited by McCullough (2005-10-26 02:33:06)

2005-10-26 02:51:41
dan500
Member
+57|7114
I think the AA has got sh1t after 1.03, b4 on the map where US has all points (sh something) i would sit in that stinger near hotel and shoot there heli down, now, the stinger things just go 100% left or right, or it looks like theu might hit, and then they sort of "fall" out of the sky (without any flares from the heli)

I find now they go after teammates ALOT more *STUPID EA STUPID F*CK TARDS F*CK THEM AND THERE STUPID GAME*
/rant over, goes and plays BF2
2005-10-26 03:05:12
Greenie_Beazinie
Aussie Outlaw
+8|7080
Yeah EA sure fails on alot of aspects.
2005-10-26 03:19:42
divided
Clear!
+3|7040
Hey, there is one thing AA is good for...you need it to get your air defense badges.
2005-10-26 03:54:36
TheSilenceOfMe
Member
+0|7045
I <3 the AA
Air Defense. Kills: 557 Deaths: 196 Road Kills: 66 G.R: 2,931
2005-10-26 04:08:29
pinky_81
Member
+1|7056|Denmark

divided wrote:

Hey, there is one thing AA is good for...you need it to get your air defense badges.
No you don't... Not if you mean Stingers anyway - You can take a linebacker and plugh through hordes of infantry to get the silly badge
2005-10-26 07:49:28
.:ronin:.|Patton
Respekct dad i love u always
+946|7076|Marathon, Florida Keys
AA shold be like the missles in desert combat, they just go straight and extremely fast, you have to lead them and it requires ALOT of skill, but once your good you can take out any plane or choper with ease.
https://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g117/patton1337/stats.jpg
2005-10-26 07:56:24
chuyskywalker
Admin
+2,439|7114|"Frisco"

DrDestruction wrote:

Okay, you know what?  Im going to end this right now with a little example.
Calm it down a little. I agree that instead of "[TEAMKILLS]" it ought to say "[TK: GRENADE]" or similiar. That makes total sense.

The point that Slay makes, however, is that TK's (while in a jet) are pretty much a guaranteed mistaken AA missle. On the ground there are so many way's to intentionally or uninentionally TK that you ought to take a moment to think about WTF just happened. In the air as a pilot? I would bet 9/10 times that TK is a bad missle. The other one percent is a mid-air collision, but those are kinda rare.
2005-10-26 08:01:07
Miakei
Member
+1|7090|Los Angeles, CA
AA is a good concept. The implimentation leaves something to be desired though. A friend of mine was remarking that the modern Stingers not only use heat, but also radar lock. Now, why would EA not include those spiffy little tweaks? 0wnage. If the AA were 100%, and able to track the targets as they should, well...that would make Planes and Helos pretty much useless. Also, I cannot believe these jerks who punish for getting TK'd because obviously they are so 1337 that they could never get hit accidentally by a launched AA missile.
2005-10-26 08:09:02
=[4th]=SlayThem
Destroy Noob Cannons
+96|7100

DrDestruction wrote:

Okay, you know what?  Im going to end this right now with a little example.

chuyskywalker, let's say you are playing Karkand with me, and we are assaulting an outpost.  We are both waiting by the hotel outpost, Im waiting outside the hotel outpost, and you are preparing to assault it.

You run in the Hotel outpost.  Suddenly, your screen switches to the map, and it says on the upper left of the screen:

DrDestruction [Teamkills] Chuyskywalker

What do you do?  Let's say that you assumed I shot you so that I could cap the flag and get points for it.  After all, how else could you have died?  I was standing right with you and I knew you were a friendly.

Now I get all mad at you - I want to know your reasoning behind punishing me, because I simply threw a grenade into the outpost and you suddenly ran into it before I could warn you, and it blew you up.  You apologize for your mistake.

Now, lets assume that the tag said:

DrDestruction [Hand Grenade] chuyskywalker

Would you have maybe realized what had happened, and forgiven me?  Again, I would hope so.

See the point?  The game DOES NOT specify which weapon killed you in the case of a TK.  THIS is the major problem - rogue AA is not the only thing that can kill a jet.  Another jet crashing into you can kill a jet, a rogue tank shell can kill a jet, hell, how about a friendly machine gun?  That can kill a jet, perhaps fired from the top of a tank by a friendly that didn't see you.  Bottom line is that it doesn't specify, and because of that, you cannot expect mercy when you TK a jet by accident from AA.

It is your mindset exactly - "Well what else could possibly kill me?" - that causes people to punish for these sorts of things - they simply feel it was done on purpose.

With that all said, dsb, I completely agree.  Aircraft TK's are a bitch and while I dont think they should be punishable either way (jets TKing teammates or teammates TKing jets)(except for shooting someone/the plane to get the plane for yourself), it's a fact of life that must be dealt with.

There are worse things in BF2.  Get over it.

When being chased by a enemy jet, I doubt you'd be flying slow enough and LOW enough for a tank to shell you, a MG weapon mount to shoot you, and so on. Use your head.


Thanks for the back-up, Chuy. Atleast you read my post

Last edited by =[4th]=SlayThem (2005-10-26 08:09:16)

2005-10-26 08:16:02
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|7038|Atlanta, GA USA
Although most TKs when you are in a jet or helo from errant AA, they are sometimes from when someone runs into you with another jet or helo (whether accidental or not, although I can't imagine why anyone would intentionally ram their own teammates in midair).
Now for my rant.  AA SUX!  I cannot believe how pathetic AA is in this game.  I don't know how anyone can get decent kills against jets with the crappy stinger emplacements.  Hell, I can barely get a helo half the time.  It is much easier to get a TK, because the crappy missiles can never maintain a lock.  I swear there must be code that makes it more likely to go after a friendly after losing a lock than another enemy.  Has anyone ever shot a stinger at one enemy and had it hit another enemy after losing the lock? Not me...

Last edited by atlvolunteer (2005-10-26 08:20:53)

 

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