Poll

I am _______ concealed weapons and I live...

_for_...in the US.43%43% - 97
_for_...in another nation where they are allowed.3%3% - 7
_for_...in a nation where they are disallowed.10%10% - 23
_against_...in the US.5%5% - 13
_against_...in another nation where they are allowed.2%2% - 5
_against_...in a nation where they are disallowed.35%35% - 80
Total: 225
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953

Darktongue wrote:

Homicide                Suicide            Unintentional

USA                       4.08 (1999)               6.08 (1999)         0.42 (1999)

Canada                  0.54 (1999)              2.65 (1997)         0.15 (1997)

Switzerland           0.50 (1999)               5.78 (1998)          -

Scotland                0.12 (1999)               0.27 (1999)           -

England/Wales      0.12 (1999/00)           0.22 (1999)        0.01 (1999)

Japan                    0.04* (1998)              0.04 (1995)       <0.01 (1997)
What the hell's wrong with Sweden?

The people who argue that disarmament in America results in more crime need to look longer term: in the short term, people will be unprotected from armed criminals.  In the long term, police can collect all the weapons and the net result is a safer country.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7229
Lets let them collect all the drugs 1st.
It will be much easier to collect the illegal drugs that aren't even legally manufactured here and they could never sneak them into the USA by the ton so that will end that.

That should take what a year or two tops.

Then after they do that successfully they can just round up all the guns.
No one will ever figure out how to make a revolver or a Sten MkIII SMG.
You would need a Hack Saw and a soldering Iron to make a Sten and no one could acquire those, the outlay expenses would be staggering and unthinkable. It would also require a drill to manufacture a work able revolver so I think we can safely write those off for ever.. good riddance.

These things are the very cutting edge of technology and require the most very skilled and clever amongst us who would rather be surgeons and CEOs than crank out guns for 1000 a piece on the black market.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7077|United States of America
Switzerland, Bubbalo?
The_Fighting_69th
Combat medic
+6|7145
Carry my 1911 everyday, I've been in some areas were it was nice to know I had it with me, though I've never had to clear leather...Thank God.

In the end, why do non-US residents even care if I can carry a handgun?  it's not like it affects you.

believe it or not, not everyone that carries a gun is crazy, CCWs are usually the most law-abiding people around.
[bdb]donutmaster
Member
+2|6838
Maybe some of the anti-gun might want to come work I work for a day or two.

I work for a loan company with MONEY inside.    See how chicken poo people get when thugs come and stare in the windows.!!!!  See if they dont want to have a way to defend them selves.!!
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953
Horseman:  So then, shouldn't that be an issue everywhere that guns are illegal?

DesertFox:  I stand by what I said.  Sweden has issues.
samhornby
Bo'Selecta!
+14|6943
This is the way I look at it. If no one has a gun then i shouldnt be scared and i should have to have protection. Also what stops one person whos has a gun from Deciding to shoot up the place?

  Sure one of you guys with guns can blow his head off..but before he manages to kill  or more people in the vicinity, which could be you?
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7077|United States of America
I can't tell if you're being serious or not, Bub. It's text for the love of crumb cake. You just put Switzerland in bold text and type Sweden! I CAN'T UNDERSTAND SARCASM (or not) THROUGH TEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,068|7164|PNW

Bubbalo wrote:

The people who argue that disarmament in America results in more crime need to look longer term: in the short term, people will be unprotected from armed criminals.  In the long term, police can collect all the weapons and the net result is a safer country.
Meanwhile, I wouldn't envy the victims of "social shift." An obscure long term doesn't really mean much to a corpse.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-04 21:02:48)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953
So, you wouldn't risk your life to make your children's lives better?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,068|7164|PNW

Bubbalo wrote:

So, you wouldn't risk your life to make your children's lives better?
I wouldn't risk their lives to cater to anti-gun sentiment. Speaking from US culture, I say that firearms should be deglamorized by prevalence as personal defense and sporting utilities, and not made further an attractive taboo by well-meant bans.

And no, my basement isn't filled with crates of Thompsons and hand grenades. Whatever would I do with that?

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-05 02:05:21)

UON
Junglist Massive
+223|7045

Horseman 77 wrote:

Lets let them collect all the drugs 1st.
It will be much easier to collect the illegal drugs that aren't even legally manufactured here and they could never sneak them into the USA by the ton so that will end that.

That should take what a year or two tops.

Then after they do that successfully they can just round up all the guns.
No one will ever figure out how to make a revolver or a Sten MkIII SMG.
You would need a Hack Saw and a soldering Iron to make a Sten and no one could acquire those, the outlay expenses would be staggering and unthinkable. It would also require a drill to manufacture a work able revolver so I think we can safely write those off for ever.. good riddance.

These things are the very cutting edge of technology and require the most very skilled and clever amongst us who would rather be surgeons and CEOs than crank out guns for 1000 a piece on the black market.
What's your point, if you want guns to be legal, then you should make drugs legal?
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953
So, your isssue is that they'll make guns "cool"?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,068|7164|PNW

Bubbalo wrote:

So, your isssue is that they'll make guns "cool"?
My "issue" (for the US) is rather multi-pronged, and focused more on firearms in general than CCW.

1. Guns are already exaggerated in the media and the subject of an excess amount of glamour. The act of denying something will only serve to raise interest in it. A likely scenario for a ban would be to block the sale of certain guns over time after specified dates, which would only serve to attract buyers to the firearms market before said dates, and later increase black market arms sales (making it even more difficult to track firearms crime).

2. Firearms sales tend to increase in and around areas where acts of crime commonly result in injury and death. While the withdrawal of firearms would mean a certain shortage of firearms-related incidents sometime far in the future, many Americans would not (and rightly so) appreciate the immediate risk placed on their persons and families due to this new lack of defense. Borrowing from one past scenario, I am not about to begrudge an old woman her right to defend herself against a rapist in her own home by firing shots through her bathroom door, due to a certain lack of police timeliness.

3. The withdrawal of firearms rights would serve to inspire discord among the more stalwart gun owners of America, resulting in a mildly dystopian scenario of domestic terrorism from both police and extremists.

4. To strike at tools that can be misused is ineffective. The bans and restrictions in Washington, D.C. viewed in combination with its own significant crime rate contributes a bit of proof to that.

---

That being said, it's interesting to note that the vote is still about evenly divided among yes/US and no/foreign-disallowed.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-05 02:29:39)

buttersIRL
Member
+17|6990

ATG wrote:

If I feel like packing, I pack.
I don't give a shit what law there is that says I can't.
I did a good sized job in Las Vegas and came back with 14k in cash.
Do you think that all I had was a toothpick?
I just bet your the type of person that has a holster for his mobile phone
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

1. Guns are already exaggerated in the media and the subject of an excess amount of glamour. The act of denying something will only serve to raise interest in it. A likely scenario for a ban would be to block the sale of certain guns over time after specified dates, which would only serve to attract buyers to the firearms market before said dates.
And promptly have them confiscated after the ban.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

2. Firearms sales tend to increase in and around areas acts of crime result in injury and death. While the withdrawal of firearms would mean a certain shortage of firearms-related incidents sometime in the future, many Americans would not (and rightly so) appreciate the immediate risk placed on their persons and families due to this new lack of defense.
Let us imagine, for a moment, that A represents time with guns, B represents time when guns are illegal but criminals have them, and C represents time when guns are at about the same level as in the West which bans them (which is to say, hard to access).  We know that B is the worst possible situation, so we will assign it to 3 as the worst.  We, further, know that countries with C are better than countries with A, by and large, so C shall have 1, and A shall have 2.

So, over a three day period:

Your America has 3A, which is a rating of 6.
Mine has 1A + 1B + 1C, which also has a rating of 6.
If we extend it one more day, however, yours has a rating of 8, whereas mine has a rating of only 7.

It's vastly oversimplified, but you see what I'm getting at: in the long term, the sacrifice is much greater.  Short term loss should never be used to argue against a plan which would institute long term gain.
Borrowing from one past scenario, I am not about to begrudge an old woman her right to defend herself against a rapist in her own home by shots fired through her bathroom door, due to a certain lack of police timeliness.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

3. The withdrawal of firearms rights would serve to inspire discord among the more stalwart gun owners of America, resulting in a mildly dystopian scenario of domestic terrorism from both police and extremists.
Well in that case you'd better do as Mr. bin Laden says: failing to do so could result in further attacks.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

4. To strike at tools that can be misused is ineffective.
Except that guns can only be used to either practice or cause physical harm, neither of which are legitimate.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

The bans and restrictions in Washington, D.C. viewed in combination with its own significant crime rate contributes a bit of proof to that.
Except that it probably would be too hard to smuggle a weapon over a state border, which puts the lie to your theory: you see, Washington is probably suffering from looser gun laws over the border.
NiggleMuffin
Banned
+0|6837|McNegra

Bubbalo wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

1. Guns are already exaggerated in the media and the subject of an excess amount of glamour. The act of denying something will only serve to raise interest in it. A likely scenario for a ban would be to block the sale of certain guns over time after specified dates, which would only serve to attract buyers to the firearms market before said dates.
And promptly have them confiscated after the ban.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

2. Firearms sales tend to increase in and around areas acts of crime result in injury and death. While the withdrawal of firearms would mean a certain shortage of firearms-related incidents sometime in the future, many Americans would not (and rightly so) appreciate the immediate risk placed on their persons and families due to this new lack of defense.
Let us imagine, for a moment, that A represents time with guns, B represents time when guns are illegal but criminals have them, and C represents time when guns are at about the same level as in the West which bans them (which is to say, hard to access).  We know that B is the worst possible situation, so we will assign it to 3 as the worst.  We, further, know that countries with C are better than countries with A, by and large, so C shall have 1, and A shall have 2.

So, over a three day period:

Your America has 3A, which is a rating of 6.
Mine has 1A + 1B + 1C, which also has a rating of 6.
If we extend it one more day, however, yours has a rating of 8, whereas mine has a rating of only 7.

It's vastly oversimplified, but you see what I'm getting at: in the long term, the sacrifice is much greater.  Short term loss should never be used to argue against a plan which would institute long term gain.
Borrowing from one past scenario, I am not about to begrudge an old woman her right to defend herself against a rapist in her own home by shots fired through her bathroom door, due to a certain lack of police timeliness.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

3. The withdrawal of firearms rights would serve to inspire discord among the more stalwart gun owners of America, resulting in a mildly dystopian scenario of domestic terrorism from both police and extremists.
Well in that case you'd better do as Mr. bin Laden says: failing to do so could result in further attacks.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

4. To strike at tools that can be misused is ineffective.
Except that guns can only be used to either practice or cause physical harm, neither of which are legitimate.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

The bans and restrictions in Washington, D.C. viewed in combination with its own significant crime rate contributes a bit of proof to that.
Except that it probably would be too hard to smuggle a weapon over a state border, which puts the lie to your theory: you see, Washington is probably suffering from looser gun laws over the border.
I think your exampling sucks a great deal in that it fails largely in its efforts expose the periodical reduction of firearms possession. You touch upon it lightly (the phase for such a deduction) in minor description, but the varietal-based demo you have constructed fails here. Not only did you make a misstep in this zone, but you also left out a more full assessment of the gradient to be produced under such a scenario. The creation of two extra variables, D and E, would most likely have a supremely higher sense of apt. D would signify a period under which federal collections saw process (the time at which the criminal body still held a great number of these munitions) and E would stand for the point following the area where dispersion of such illicit materials had (hoped to have) seen thorough depletion (your referenced C), yet experiences of surging influxes from surrounding regions would disrupt or otherwise render futile the proposed enactments.

Under retrospection, it comes to clue us in on the obvious path that such efforts would indeed prove useless should a united management of the Americas take place. Considering relations of the region, I think we may rest solemnly with the fact that this shan't see encountering.

(P.S. Conjuring up contrasts of European environments hasn't a place for making such a grace, as establishing collaborations among aforementioned geopolitical segments sees such magnificent ease in comparison.)

Last edited by NiggleMuffin (2006-09-05 03:00:54)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953
Ha..........you tried to be verbose and failed.  Anyway........................your D is my B, hence why it had a value of 3, greater than A and C.  And you have no basis for this supposed periodical influx of weapons: I have yet to see it in Australia, and AFAIK Europe does not experience them.  Here's a hint for your next post:  don't try to use complex language.  You risk making little sense (your post above as an example) or, even if you succeed, confusing others, which won't convince them of your argument!
NiggleMuffin
Banned
+0|6837|McNegra

Bubbalo wrote:

Ha..........you tried to be verbose and failed.  Anyway........................your D is my B, hence why it had a value of 3, greater than A and C.  And you have no basis for this supposed periodical influx of weapons: I have yet to see it in Australia, and AFAIK Europe does not experience them.  Here's a hint for your next post:  don't try to use complex language.  You risk making little sense (your post above as an example) or, even if you succeed, confusing others, which won't convince them of your argument!
Why do I have no basis for such? I need not, for circumstantial ambiguities apply not like they do for us Americans. Clearly you've missed the point. Regardless, D isn't your B. B is the period before D which makes movement to reach C but inevitably fails and resolves with E. I still am not witnessing this proposed illogicality of mine.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953
Is English you first language?

B is where guns are illegal, and only criminals have them (for this purpose, those who have weapons but have committed no other crime are not considered criminals).  And I don't see how it has to end at E.  Do you have any evidence?  As to E:  You assume that there will be a periodic influx of illegal weapons, and yet you have no basis for this assumption.

Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-09-05 03:44:28)

NiggleMuffin
Banned
+0|6837|McNegra
No, you have no basis that there won't be (such an inception). Is there or was there prior a heavy arms trafficking of munitions into, essentially, the whole of your country or any other European bodies? No, not even close. The hispanic states in the Southern and Central Americas are zones which must be controlled and compartmentalized into a union for action should your advice ever seek to make impacting effects. I do think it so profoundly awkward that you question the origin of my native tongue yet you hold a decent portion less of skill than I in linguistic fortitude.

(P.S. By the way, it isn't an assumption. Weaponry sees movement throughout the whole of our body so often you have no idea. Nehil speaks [somewhere among this mess of threads concerning gun control] of how he knows nobody from whom he could foster firearm procurement, and honestly, this is a matter of available resources. In his case, he hasn't the pervasive connection to the type of culture and relations that we in the United States do.)

Last edited by NiggleMuffin (2006-09-05 03:54:49)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953
Which is a border control issue, which could be solved.  Russia is big on arms making and such, yet Europe doesn't seem to have huge troubles.  Maybe you should ask them for advice?

And using big words means nothing if you use them improperly and attempt to obfusticate* your opponents rather than engage in meaningful dialogue.

*See, I can use fancy words too, and properly!  I choose not to, however, because there is little point.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953

NiggleMuffin wrote:

(By the way, it isn't an assumption. Weaponry sees movement throughout the whole of our body so often you have no idea.
Weapons are legal ATM.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7043|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

Darktongue wrote:

Homicide                Suicide            Unintentional

USA                       4.08 (1999)               6.08 (1999)         0.42 (1999)

Canada                  0.54 (1999)              2.65 (1997)         0.15 (1997)

Switzerland           0.50 (1999)               5.78 (1998)          -

Scotland                0.12 (1999)               0.27 (1999)           -

England/Wales      0.12 (1999/00)           0.22 (1999)        0.01 (1999)

Japan                    0.04* (1998)              0.04 (1995)       <0.01 (1997)
What the hell's wrong with Sweden?

The people who argue that disarmament in America results in more crime need to look longer term: in the short term, people will be unprotected from armed criminals.  In the long term, police can collect all the weapons and the net result is a safer country.
What happened? Couldn't ya pick any smaller, or more sparsely populated countries to compare?
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6953
Oh, so now it's about size?  Regardless, I wasn't the one who posted those statistics.  I was just pointing out a completely irrelevant piece of data.

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