Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6492|eXtreme to the maX
If it means bankers don't run banks into bankruptcy in the long term so they can trouser huge bonuses in the short term then its a good move.
If that means investment banks relocate elsewhere - that could be a problem as they pay a hell of a lot of tax.

Europe generally needs to resolve the issue of foreign corporations killing local companies and paying zero local tax.

If both problems are resolved it should be a win for Europe.
Fuck Israel
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England
So, the IMF and Germany bailed out the banks in Cyprus yesterday, and the price they exacted was 6.5% of any bank account less than $100k, and 9.9% of any bank account above $100k. They literally took the money out of peoples life savings in order to fund it. So much for property rights in the EU...

Euro-area finance ministers agreed to an unprecedented tax on Cypriot bank deposits as officials unveiled a 10 billion-euro ($13 billion) rescue plan for the country, the fifth since Europe’s debt crisis broke out in 2009.
Cyprus will impose a levy of 6.75 percent on deposits of less than 100,000 euros -- the ceiling for European Union account insurance -- and 9.9 percent above that. The measures will raise 5.8 billion euros, in addition to the emergency loans, Dutch Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem, who leads the group of euro-area ministers, told reporters early today after 10 hours of talks in Brussels. The International Monetary Fund may contribute to the package and junior bondholders may also be tapped in a so-called bail-in, the ministers' statement said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-1 … ilout.html

The IMF initially demanded 40% instead... This is what happens when you have an unelected technocratic regime running the show, as they are wholly unaccountable to voters, or anyone really. This is a disgrace and makes gold look like an even better option than it already was.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
the situation in greece is very ugly. very very ugly. i honestly don't know what to make of it. suffice to say i think they have taken the full brunt of the EU scapegoat.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5972

They didn't have a choice. They wouldn't be able to get anymore loans to finance a bailout.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6492|eXtreme to the maX
Cyprus and Greece aren't being bailed out, German banks are being bailed out at the expense of the Greeks and Cypriots.
Fuck Israel
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

They didn't have a choice. They wouldn't be able to get anymore loans to finance a bailout.
They had plenty of choices. That money was stolen from the people to pay bondholders (German banks).
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6492|eXtreme to the maX
Its a neat plan, give a country a loan they can't afford, take their savings and property and bankrupt the country in in the process.

Not a single shot fired.
Fuck Israel
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
and pass off a lot of rhetoric about lazy and 'you deserve it' workers in the agri-business. it's pretty dirty.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida
How many more years until they go straight up fascist?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England
Who?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
most of the european states getting hit hardest by this EU 'package' have always had massive fascist/totalitarian tendencies, anyway. and the grand irony is that the tutting tante behind all the reforms/bail-out deals is germany... the country who have profited industrially and economically from the post-ww2 EU set-up like no other. it's fucking cruel, man. i would not want to be a working class person in greece or spain or italy thesedays. watching those northern european cunts harumph and tell you that "you're bad", when they're fucked the whole thing, on the back of a world-dominating genocide orgy, as well.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-16 21:38:09)

Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida
I was asking mostly about Greece.  I read stories on the interwebs of their right-wing infiltrating the police and beating up immigrants, torturing people, brownshirt style. 

Spain's history I already know about.  The most I know about Greece is that they had a civil war between the rightists and the leftists and the rightists won.  I think.

Last edited by Spearhead (2013-03-16 21:44:49)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England
Well, those countries don't have economies that are even remotely competitive or sustainable. You can't have a society where the government is doing the lions share of spending. It just doesn't work. In the case of Greece, they had what? half of the people working for the government? On top of that they have a ridiculous retirement system.

As I've said before, in the past, the way these countries would get out of their debt was to simply inflate their way out of it. Everyone on a fixed pension would be completely fucked, but it would lower their costs. They can't do that when they're under a common currency, and there's no way they can politically make the reforms they need to make to become more in line with their competition. When they try to reform and make cuts there's a backlash and you end up with morons like Hollande in power. The Euro is going to collapse, there's simply no way around it. The welfare state is too ingrained in the culture of the PIGS at this point for them to ever make serious reforms. People don't want to lose their cushy government jobs and won't give them up without a fight, or a revolution.

At this point Germany is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they exit the Euro and force a collapse, their debts will be inflated to nothing by the debtor nations. If they try to remain in the Euro, they're going to have to perpetually bail out the welfare-state nations. As much as I despise what they did to Cypriots yesterday, I can understand it from the German point of view: they're tired of the bailouts, they keep dumping billions into the PIGS for no return whatsoever. Ultimately, I have zero sympathy for the German bondholders, because there is not, nor should there ever be, anything akin to a risk-free investment.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
greece have a nasty far-right party on the rise, yep, but there are just as many (if not more) communists and anarchists coming up and having weekly protests/fights as a result of the crisis. not sure what it's like on the ground day by day, as the story has fallen out of media attention. but yeah... europe seems to do old style politics still. lots of nationalism and extreme positions in response to this financial crisis. some people clearly still think it's 1910.
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
yes jay all of those points were rounded up by The Economist about 3 years ago. thank you for your digest.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Spearhead wrote:

I was asking mostly about Greece.  I read stories on the interwebs of their right-wing infiltrating the police and beating up immigrants, torturing people, brownshirt style. 

Spain's history I already know about.  The most I know about Greece is that they had a civil war between the rightists and the leftists and the rightists won.  I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(Greece)

I was there during the elections last summer and Golden Dawn was running very well for a while, to the point that they were going to be part of the coalition government. When I asked a Greek taxi driver on Mykonos who they were he wouldn't tell me, just grumbled under his breath.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
also i think your analysis of "people not wanting to lose their cushty government jobs" is a little bit out of whack. it's a very convenient distortion for your american teh-super-libertarian ass to recycle. most people being hit hardest in greece by this crisis are piss-poor farmers and peasants who have never had a stake in anything. people who work some of the longest hours in europe. serious workers. the bureaucracy in greece was a much-maligned red herring for a while. unsustainable and blown up into an absurd EU managerial nightmare, yep. but don't kid yourself that the country in the majority somehow 'deserves' it. this is a crisis of international capitalism / banking, and it's workers and blue-collars who are getting whipped routinely the hardest.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

also i think your analysis of "people not wanting to lose their cushty government jobs" is a little bit out of whack. it's a very convenient distortion for your american teh-super-libertarian ass to recycle. most people being hit hardest in greece by this crisis are piss-poor farmers and peasants who have never had a stake in anything. people who work some of the longest hours in europe. serious workers. the bureaucracy in greece was a much-maligned red herring for a while. unsustainable and blown up into an absurd EU managerial nightmare, yep. but don't kid yourself that the country in the majority somehow 'deserves' it. this is a crisis of international capitalism / banking, and it's workers and blue-collars who are getting whipped routinely the hardest.
Why on earth would farmers and 'peasants' be the ones getting hit by austerity?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640

Jay wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

I was asking mostly about Greece.  I read stories on the interwebs of their right-wing infiltrating the police and beating up immigrants, torturing people, brownshirt style. 

Spain's history I already know about.  The most I know about Greece is that they had a civil war between the rightists and the leftists and the rightists won.  I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(Greece)

I was there during the elections last summer and Golden Dawn was running very well for a while, to the point that they were going to be part of the coalition government. When I asked a Greek taxi driver on Mykonos who they were he wouldn't tell me, just grumbled under his breath.
lol that's probably because he thought "who the fuck is this american trying to show his knowledge of our problems, just pay the fare and i'll drive you". you make the golden dawn sound almost apocryphal. like the village heroes in mussolini's fascist rising or something.
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640

Jay wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

also i think your analysis of "people not wanting to lose their cushty government jobs" is a little bit out of whack. it's a very convenient distortion for your american teh-super-libertarian ass to recycle. most people being hit hardest in greece by this crisis are piss-poor farmers and peasants who have never had a stake in anything. people who work some of the longest hours in europe. serious workers. the bureaucracy in greece was a much-maligned red herring for a while. unsustainable and blown up into an absurd EU managerial nightmare, yep. but don't kid yourself that the country in the majority somehow 'deserves' it. this is a crisis of international capitalism / banking, and it's workers and blue-collars who are getting whipped routinely the hardest.
Why on earth would farmers and 'peasants' be the ones getting hit by austerity?
wow.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

also i think your analysis of "people not wanting to lose their cushty government jobs" is a little bit out of whack. it's a very convenient distortion for your american teh-super-libertarian ass to recycle. most people being hit hardest in greece by this crisis are piss-poor farmers and peasants who have never had a stake in anything. people who work some of the longest hours in europe. serious workers. the bureaucracy in greece was a much-maligned red herring for a while. unsustainable and blown up into an absurd EU managerial nightmare, yep. but don't kid yourself that the country in the majority somehow 'deserves' it. this is a crisis of international capitalism / banking, and it's workers and blue-collars who are getting whipped routinely the hardest.
Why on earth would farmers and 'peasants' be the ones getting hit by austerity?
wow.
Because they suddenly have less bureaucrats to sell their goods to? Please. Stop trying to make it into a class warfare argument.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida
Crumbling infrastructure, collapsing healthcare services.  etc.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England
And btw, it's not a libertarian thought to criticize government employees, it's pretty much how every American feels about bureaucrats. Lazy, overpaid, rude, slow, unproductive, clock-watchers. When you tell me that half of the employees in a given country work for the government, I translate my feelings about American bureaucracy over to that nation, and in the case of Greece, they're even worse than our own.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Spearhead wrote:

Crumbling infrastructure, collapsing healthcare services.  etc.
So prioritize the roads, privatize the health system, and get back to making money in a productive economy.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640

Jay wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

Jay wrote:

Why on earth would farmers and 'peasants' be the ones getting hit by austerity?
wow.
Because they suddenly have less bureaucrats to sell their goods to? Please. Stop trying to make it into a class warfare argument.
what exactly do you think austerity consists of? pieces of paper? meetings? economist articles? and then what...? what are the consequences of cuts and their implementations? what happens when a country gets close to declaring itself bankrupt? when the media and politicos create the feeling that the market is failing? you think it's business as usual for the working man? please. stop typing paragraph-long rehashes of whatever you read in the wall street journal last week when you CLEARLY have no idea what 'austerity' means - and threatens - to 99% of european people.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-16 22:06:25)

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