Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:


wow.
Because they suddenly have less bureaucrats to sell their goods to? Please. Stop trying to make it into a class warfare argument.
what exactly do you think austerity consists of? pieces of paper? meetings? economist articles? and then what...? what are the consequences of cuts and their implementations? what happens when a country gets close to declaring itself bankrupt? when the media and politicos create the feeling that the market is failing? you think it's business as usual for the working man? please. stop typing paragraph-long rehashes of whatever you read in the wall street journal last week when you CLEARLY have no idea what 'austerity' means - and threatens - to 99% of european people.
I already said it's politically impossible to push through the necessary reforms like three posts ago. It would take decades to unravel the welfare state, and the next boom cycle would allow them to reverse every bit of gain in that direction, ending up right where they started.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
what 'reforms'? the EU is an engineered/managed market. that goes for all states, not just the ones currently in the serious shit (because of bad bank loans). there is nothing these individual states can do on the level of national/local government that will fix the problems with the EU market. why are greek workers losing out to austerity? because their quality of life is being impeded in every single way, and they are being expected to continue operating with an international market without any of the prior tax breaks or EU support. they're being cut loose under the name of short-term 'austerity'. you tell the greek olive or asparagus farmers (i.e. huge exports) to continue 'competing' without any of the EU subsidies or exemptions that made the international market run so well in the first place. it's a mess. greece has one of the largest - and hardest working - farmer/blue-collar populations in europe. their ability to do business on the international market has been gutted.

how does austerity affect workers? lol you are a fucking joke, for someone who professes so much knowledge. do you do any thinking beyond the economist columns you read? one thing you do not understand, through your dumb hurf-durf libertarian bias: this 'austerity' plan and bailout is not being seen as a "cutting back" of the "out of control" bureaucrat class. that is not the way it is experienced here in europe, on the ground. across the continent, it is being seen as a loss for workers and 'ordinary' people, as the political class continue spinning the same bullshit, keeping the same disastrous show running, and as the banking sector continues on without any change or heed. across europe these financial reforms are a concern precisely because they are fucking life for ordinary people, who had no stake or involvement in the entire crash. that has been the MAIN theme for the entire duration. i have no fucking idea what shitty sources you are reading.

some recent american coverage:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 … lack-flags

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-16 22:25:15)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

what 'reforms'? the EU is an engineered/managed market. that goes for all states, not just the ones currently in the serious shit (because of bad bank loans). there is nothing these individual states can do on the level of national/local government that will fix the problems with the EU market. why are greek workers losing out to austerity? because their quality of life is being impeded in every single way, and they are being expected to continue operating with an international market without any of the prior tax breaks or EU support. they're being cut loose under the name of short-term 'austerity'. you tell the greek olive or asparagus farmers (i.e. huge exports) to continue 'competing' without any of the EU subsidies or exemptions that made the international market run so well in the first place. it's a mess. greece has one of the largest - and hardest working - farmer/blue-collar populations in europe. their ability to do business on the international market has been gutted.

how does austerity affect workers? lol you are a fucking joke, for someone who professes so much knowledge. do you do any thinking beyond the economist columns you read? one thing you do not understand, through your dumb hurf-durf libertarian bias: this 'austerity' plan and bailout is not being seen as a "cutting back" of the "out of control" bureaucrat class. that is not the way it is experienced here in europe, on the ground. across the continent, it is being seen as a loss for workers and 'ordinary' people, as the political class continue spinning the same bullshit, keeping the same disastrous show running, and as the banking sector continues on without any change or heed. across europe these financial reforms are a concern precisely because they are fucking life for ordinary people, who had no stake or involvement in the entire crash. that has been the MAIN theme for the entire duration. i have no fucking idea what shitty sources you are reading.

some recent american coverage:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 … lack-flags
You do understand that subsidies are a bad thing, not a good thing, right?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England
From the article: “We are taxing everything now. It takes a month’s income just to fill up the tractor with gasoline,” said Giogas, who joined the peaceful rally.

So cut taxes. You know how you cut taxes? By cutting the size and scope of government.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5972

Cutting taxes is the American political solution to everything.
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640

Jay wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

what 'reforms'? the EU is an engineered/managed market. that goes for all states, not just the ones currently in the serious shit (because of bad bank loans). there is nothing these individual states can do on the level of national/local government that will fix the problems with the EU market. why are greek workers losing out to austerity? because their quality of life is being impeded in every single way, and they are being expected to continue operating with an international market without any of the prior tax breaks or EU support. they're being cut loose under the name of short-term 'austerity'. you tell the greek olive or asparagus farmers (i.e. huge exports) to continue 'competing' without any of the EU subsidies or exemptions that made the international market run so well in the first place. it's a mess. greece has one of the largest - and hardest working - farmer/blue-collar populations in europe. their ability to do business on the international market has been gutted.

how does austerity affect workers? lol you are a fucking joke, for someone who professes so much knowledge. do you do any thinking beyond the economist columns you read? one thing you do not understand, through your dumb hurf-durf libertarian bias: this 'austerity' plan and bailout is not being seen as a "cutting back" of the "out of control" bureaucrat class. that is not the way it is experienced here in europe, on the ground. across the continent, it is being seen as a loss for workers and 'ordinary' people, as the political class continue spinning the same bullshit, keeping the same disastrous show running, and as the banking sector continues on without any change or heed. across europe these financial reforms are a concern precisely because they are fucking life for ordinary people, who had no stake or involvement in the entire crash. that has been the MAIN theme for the entire duration. i have no fucking idea what shitty sources you are reading.

some recent american coverage:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 … lack-flags
You do understand that subsidies are a bad thing, not a good thing, right?
lol jesus fucking christ. you don't understand a single thing about the european project. the EU as an economic union wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for subsidies and tweaking/engineering to induce import/exports/labour here and there. you are so dogmatic in your thought (or rather so naive and simplistic) that you are just going to say "subsidies are a bad thing"? yes, i'm sure your libertarian #101 poli-sci textbook told you that back in college. that's not how it works for tens of millions of working people though, is it?
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
oh and subsidies didn't cause the financial crash. bad loans did. the workers dun good. but the workers must pay?

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-16 22:37:01)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Cutting taxes is the American political solution to everything.
Do you understand why? It's not because rich people don't want to pay any taxes (although that plays a part), it's because having high taxes makes your exports more expensive, which in turn makes you as a country less competitive. There's a reason that so much internal business in this country has been fleeing from high taxes and high labor costs in rust belt states and fleeing to the south. Every bit of money that a company can save on costs means that it can lower its prices and increase its market share. The customer ultimately benefits in the end because not only do they have more money to spend from lower taxes, they can buy more goods at lower prices.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida
Can you explain to me how the EU affects the UK even though it's not in the eurozone itself?  I mean, beyond the obvious shit.  I could go read it on wiki but I'd prefer an Englanders personal touch
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Cutting taxes is the American political solution to everything.
Do you understand why? It's not because rich people don't want to pay any taxes (although that plays a part), it's because having high taxes makes your exports more expensive, which in turn makes you as a country less competitive. There's a reason that so much internal business in this country has been fleeing from high taxes and high labor costs in rust belt states and fleeing to the south. Every bit of money that a company can save on costs means that it can lower its prices and increase its market share. The customer ultimately benefits in the end because not only do they have more money to spend from lower taxes, they can buy more goods at lower prices.
doesn't work. most of the problems in european states that have been under austerity cuts/economic 'stimulus' for several years now stems from those consumers/people not parting with their cash. "buy more goods at lower prices". at the moment people are not spending money. the UK economy is suffering a congested flu. there is no cash in circulation. and, of course, the banks - who caused the shitfuck - are refusing to lend the money they were given by STATES to BAIL them out.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-16 22:39:10)

Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5972

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Cutting taxes is the American political solution to everything.
Do you understand why? It's not because rich people don't want to pay any taxes (although that plays a part), it's because having high taxes makes your exports more expensive, which in turn makes you as a country less competitive. There's a reason that so much internal business in this country has been fleeing from high taxes and high labor costs in rust belt states and fleeing to the south. Every bit of money that a company can save on costs means that it can lower its prices and increase its market share. The customer ultimately benefits in the end because not only do they have more money to spend from lower taxes, they can buy more goods at lower prices.
Predictable and basic.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

Jay wrote:

Uzique The Lesser wrote:

what 'reforms'? the EU is an engineered/managed market. that goes for all states, not just the ones currently in the serious shit (because of bad bank loans). there is nothing these individual states can do on the level of national/local government that will fix the problems with the EU market. why are greek workers losing out to austerity? because their quality of life is being impeded in every single way, and they are being expected to continue operating with an international market without any of the prior tax breaks or EU support. they're being cut loose under the name of short-term 'austerity'. you tell the greek olive or asparagus farmers (i.e. huge exports) to continue 'competing' without any of the EU subsidies or exemptions that made the international market run so well in the first place. it's a mess. greece has one of the largest - and hardest working - farmer/blue-collar populations in europe. their ability to do business on the international market has been gutted.

how does austerity affect workers? lol you are a fucking joke, for someone who professes so much knowledge. do you do any thinking beyond the economist columns you read? one thing you do not understand, through your dumb hurf-durf libertarian bias: this 'austerity' plan and bailout is not being seen as a "cutting back" of the "out of control" bureaucrat class. that is not the way it is experienced here in europe, on the ground. across the continent, it is being seen as a loss for workers and 'ordinary' people, as the political class continue spinning the same bullshit, keeping the same disastrous show running, and as the banking sector continues on without any change or heed. across europe these financial reforms are a concern precisely because they are fucking life for ordinary people, who had no stake or involvement in the entire crash. that has been the MAIN theme for the entire duration. i have no fucking idea what shitty sources you are reading.

some recent american coverage:
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 … lack-flags
You do understand that subsidies are a bad thing, not a good thing, right?
lol jesus fucking christ. you don't understand a single thing about the european project. the EU as an economic union wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for subsidies and tweaking/engineering to induce import/exports/labour here and there. you are so dogmatic in your thought (or rather so naive and simplistic) that you are just going to say "subsidies are a bad thing"? yes, i'm sure your libertarian #101 poli-sci textbook told you that back in college. that's not how it works for tens of millions of working people though, is it?
Just because it is the system in place does not make it right. Subsidies are basically the same thing as tariffs. When country x subsidizes say, olive oil, country y is at a competitive disadvantage unless they also subsidize olive oil production because the farmers in country x can sell for a lower price and still make a profit. The farmers in country x have no incentive to increase productivity because they are getting paid either way.

Honestly, I thought the whole point of the Euro and open borders and stuff was to rid yourselves of all the subsidized industries. It's such a drain on productivity.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida
So all those steel workers came south for all the steel we got down here, right?  Had nothing at all to do with de-industrialization, right?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

Jay wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Cutting taxes is the American political solution to everything.
Do you understand why? It's not because rich people don't want to pay any taxes (although that plays a part), it's because having high taxes makes your exports more expensive, which in turn makes you as a country less competitive. There's a reason that so much internal business in this country has been fleeing from high taxes and high labor costs in rust belt states and fleeing to the south. Every bit of money that a company can save on costs means that it can lower its prices and increase its market share. The customer ultimately benefits in the end because not only do they have more money to spend from lower taxes, they can buy more goods at lower prices.
Predictable and basic.
Because it's the truth. The truth is generally simple.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Spearhead wrote:

So all those steel workers came south for all the steel we got down here, right?  Had nothing at all to do with de-industrialization, right?
Why did de-industrialization happen?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5972

I think that is the only answer you have because you really don't have anything else to go on.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5972

I'm doing a seminar class on modern Europe in the fall. Look forward to it.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England

Macbeth wrote:

I think that is the only answer you have because you really don't have anything else to go on.
It's economics 101 macbeth.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7076|Tampa Bay Florida

Jay wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

So all those steel workers came south for all the steel we got down here, right?  Had nothing at all to do with de-industrialization, right?
Why did de-industrialization happen?
Globalization.......
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5972

Yeah, I have taken that class too. I don't think the things I learned in my first level economics class is the answer for everything. Literally the only answer you have for the Euro crisis is the same answer you have for NY state's economy, and the U.S., and California, and Japan. Lower taxes. It seems like you learned one thing and decided to shoehorn it into everything. It is really boring.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,820|6492|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

And btw, it's not a libertarian thought to criticize government employees, it's pretty much how every American feels about bureaucrats. Lazy, overpaid, rude, slow, unproductive, clock-watchers. When you tell me that half of the employees in a given country work for the government, I translate my feelings about American bureaucracy over to that nation, and in the case of Greece, they're even worse than our own.
Including the military and govt contractors what proportion of Americans work for the govt?
Fuck Israel
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
jay's entire life up to his mid-late 20's was government subsidized. of course he's going to talk about it being 'bad for competition' now: he's done milking it, he doesn't want anyone else to have the same leg-up. and, of course, just as he feels sorry for all the harmless little fat people in america (like him), he now hates workers and labourers who somehow 'deserve' their predicament (because, oppositely to fatties, he wants to distance himself from his former comrades).

jay, here's the thing about 'austerity' that all of your silly economical-weekly and political theorizing completely overlooks: it's a buzzword, a managerial-class euphemism for 'shit we're going to take away from the ordinary, not-involved majority in order to pay for the elite's fuck-up'. bankers and politicos are not taking the brunt of these 'reforms'; it is not a "oh my god, there was a crisis in global capital and our bureaucracies, how is global capital qua a series of elite and mega-powerful institutions going to change its game, how are we ever to reform the political system!", it's "oh my god, a few elite and mega-powerful institutions dun fucked up, let's let them off lightly so we don't scare them away, and take money away from the voiceless/soon to be disenfranchised". you'll say, in your american way, 'good!' something to the effects that they 'had it easy' or were 'over socialized'. but you clearly do not understand europe. you clearly do not realize the long working days and culture of work that these so-called 'cushty' states have. i don't think some former stevedore from the atlantic seabord could hold a candle to a greek farmer in terms of industriousness and work ethic, so let's not moralize about them being 'cushty'.

'austerity' in europe means cuts to public services; it means a drop in everyday conditions for the average person (some of which may be inevitable, sure); it means a reduction in the individual's purchasing power and ability to partake in society. it's a socio-economic burdening and crippling of the class that deserve it least, amongst this entire shitfuck. another thing that an american may not realize, where even the idea of decent public transport, outside of major metropolitan hubs, is somewhat novel: cuts to public services hurt people in europe. we are a) extremely class conscious, and b) extremely proud of and oriented around our public sector(s) and the state - not suspicious like you americans are. we are the complete antithetical principle. so, 'cuts' and 'austerity' in britain mean things like: no more arts funding for small public galleries, theatres, exhibition spaces; no more funding for local heritage or conservation projects; no more funding for the obvious amenities and infrastructure that were previously maintained well and run for the 'public good'; no more socialized benefits and tax reductions for those in need of help: single-mothers, young working professionals, the elderly, the disabled. again, in america, 'boo hoo' you may say, 'the free-market will take care of that'. but you are missing the point in the most priggish, head-stuck-in-a-bad-textbook way. the mass 'public' of europe are not going to renege/reverse on nearly a centuries' worth of rebuilding, post-empire/monarchism, and their social projects, because a small yuppie neo-liberal elite fucked it up. we like our small local galleries, rather a lot, thanks very much, philistine americans. it's a tragedy to us that these innocent people are losing their livelihoods, and that the 'public' are losing services and the overall quality of their life.

there is, too, a systematic ideological push to try and 'demonize' various parties (the single mother stereotype; the immigrant 'problem' traditional outlet of frustration; the demonization of the poor as lazy and indolent, a strategy by the ruling class as old as time immemorial) that attempts to 'justify' and pacify people about these cuts going through. but here's the cold and hard truth of it: the financial crisis has nothing to do with workers, or benefit claimers. a huge rhetorical drive in the UK's conservative party to justify one of the most austere budgets we've seen yet is that there are "benefit frauds" and other undesirables, sucking the system dry. financial reality? they account for infinitesimally small portions of the govt's annual spend/deficit. the real truth? the people really bleeding the country dry are tax dodging multi-national corporations, and the financial global-banking 'elite'. the elite who triggered the whole crisis, took billions in public taxpayers' money to save them, and then refused to lend it back into the national economy/consumer's pockets, who meanwhile saw their high-streets board up and die off, and their previously (hard earned) financial stability taken away.

how does austerity affect working people in europe? lol. you're reading the wrong news-magazines.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-17 05:44:54)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England
Uzi, stuff was promised that can't be paid for. It's as simple as that.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|4640
it was mostly (=the everyday public services/quality of life stuff) all paid for fine before the financial crash. "simple"? your penchant for "simple truths" when it comes to running a diverse and complex continent sure are... well, textbook dogma.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-03-17 08:28:42)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5744|London, England
Uzi, it was unsustainable even before the crash. You can't keep racking up debt indefinitely. Eventually your credit card gets cut up.

If your parents were to die in debt do you think the credit card companies and banks would simply forgive the debt and wash their hands of it? No, they pass that debt along to the next of kin and you end up having to pay off the debt. So if your parents lived a lavish lifestyle far above their means, you're the one that ends up paying for it. Fair? Not entirely, but you probably benefitted somewhat along the way.

We have the same problem here in America. We've had massive deficits ever since Reagan and they keep getting larger rather than smaller. It's why the words Baby Boomers has started to become a pejorative among those of us who will eventually end up paying the bill. We didn't ask for a massive military, or endless war, or unfunded retirement liabilities, but we're stuck paying for them anyway.

It's just hard for me to feel bad about peoples quality of life in Europe when it wasn't real in the first place. It was an illusion, akin to someone in the projects or a council house driving a Lexus and wearing trendy clothes.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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