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2019-12-25 13:53:44
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX
I do get tired of listening to teachers and their griping. The general standard of teachers here is pretty poor, you can get onto a teaching degree without basic english or maths. I know a high-school music teacher who gripes continually about getting permanence.
It is an easy job with few risks, little on-going training etc. Not that I'd want to be dealing with kids all day.
Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 13:53:58
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3990
I am actually a very good teacher even if I occasionally revel in being a hard ass. I am super lenient in fact. I haven't given a detention since last year for instance.

Anyway the issues in education is so diverse across geographic lines that it is impossible to talk in blanket terms like "all teachers...". Teachers in white trash land (West Virginia) have different issues than teachers in hood rat cities (Newark) for instance. It's like telling Uzi that publishing books in the U.K. is the same process as doing so in communist China.

Regarding pay: my part of the country is pretty good with pay and benefits for teachers. This has it's own issues though when it comes to nepotism and older teachers refusing to make room for new teachers.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2019-12-25 13:56:10
uziq
Member
+498|3722

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

it’s literally crazy to me that you’re happy for teachers in poor areas to be paid shit and not complain about their working conditions or employment rights. so is a teacher supposed to relocate to a ghetto and settle there forever, and accept being below the national average? what’s the incentive, exactly, for someone to qualify as a teacher with two degrees and then voluntarily have no spending power whatsoever for the rest of their life? what’s the retirement plan or pension cash out looking like for a teacher in west virginia?

what you’re saying would cash out if all the teachers in the area were recruited locally, and went to colleges in west virginia, for example. but they don’t. their student loans can be accrued in chicago or california. it doesn’t make any sense to me. i guess that’s just the hieratic ‘wisdom’ of the market for you.

i’m glad they have the wherewithal to organise and act in solidarity. you should stop shitting on ‘public’ unions. just because the state has been a munificent mother to you, don’t judge others. people doing an important job which is also a public service, people who don’t chase the dollar in private industry or business, should be able to collectively organise and bargain to their hearts’ content. are HVAC engineers’ wages indexed to property prices?
I don't think you understand how economically diverse America is across regions. $90k/yr here is equivalent to making $45k/yr in West Virginia or Mississippi or Alabama. It's a solid middle class salary when accounting for cost of living. Teachers are not poor by any means. Many have just gotten it into their heads that because they spent an extra 2 years in college in their 20s they should be paid like doctors and lawyers for the rest of their life. Last I checked doctors and lawyers don't get tenure, guaranteed benefits, cost of living increases, pensions or 3 months off a year. It's a cushy life, it's just a profession full of very unhappy and entitled people. I'm surprised you didn't become a teacher, honestly. You have the perfect personality.
i would be an atrocious teacher and have no desire to deal with young people. i do not have the skillset. i have made a career in an incredibly competitive and elitist field. tell me some more about how i'm 'entitled' and should have schlepped about in some career you think nothing of, mr. government-handout air conditioning engineer. you really need to check yourself sometimes, you're full of arriviste vim from that long island deadbeat background of yours.

medical school and law school are obviously not comparable to high-school teaching. not sure when anyone compared them. mind you, doctors and lawyers make a damn sight more than $45k a year, even in alabama or idaho. why exactly does it bother you when professions self-organise and form unions? are you so desparate to fit in to the 'credentialed class' that you'll shill for The Man, jay?

the elite aren't going to be any more accommodating to you because you beat-up on people in granularly lesser lower-middle-class professions than yours, jay. it's an irritating and unbecoming trait of yours.

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-25 13:58:43)

2019-12-25 13:58:19
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

well that's a bonus, yes, 'academic freedom', but in these times tenure is coveted by academics because it's literally a non-precarious job.
Its not a bonus, its the original whole purpose of tenure, to allow academics to research contentious areas.
"Tenure is a means of defending the principle of academic freedom, which holds that it is beneficial for society in the long run if scholars are free to hold and examine a variety of views."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_tenure

Its not just to give academics a cushy life.

Sure its coveted, it shouldn't have been extended down to primary school teachers, the intent is irrelevant at that level.
i mean, yes, that is obviously the point of tenure. i wasn't contradicting you. i mean the profession has been so squeezed by marketisation and over-weening bureaucracies/administrators/vice chancellors that now tenure is seen as a 'haven' of merely good employment. the rest is all a bonus, relative to just securing a good contract.
Yes professors and senior researchers need tenure, the average jobbing lecturer/researcher doesn't, if anything not having it should keep them on their toes and churning out useful work, not sitting back and doing bugger all.

I did a short uni course a while back and in writing a paper found a researcher who had basically published one identical and mediocre paper once a year for his entire career. This is the downside of tenure.
Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 14:00:51
uziq
Member
+498|3722
very spurious example. there are no researchers getting tenure because they recycle the same paper once a year. the job market is intensely competitive.

'keeps them on their toes', yes, that's a great way to talk about people in their 30s and into their 40s who have deep-skilled into research and still can't get a permanent contract, and hence no mortgage, cannot start a family, etc. what an ideal state of affairs. meanwhile vice chancellors take home $500,000 a year to shake hands with rich donors and lunch with alumni. gj. those early career scientists should earn their stripes! slackers!
2019-12-25 14:09:40
uziq
Member
+498|3722
i am persistently amazed that people love to shit on other people's jobs and careers so much, and take actual pleasure and relish the fact that people are underpaid, undervalued, kept in precarious positions, etc. it's not even the obvious stuff of hating on menial labour or unskilled work. people like dilbert can look across at a similarly qualified engineer struggling to eke out a living in academia and talk shit about their 'laziness' and 'mediocrity' etc etc. it's just so funny to me that people are so covetous/envious and full of pride, shitting on other professions to cement their own shaky self-image.

look at the income distribution and equality stats. all the money being generated by decent, well-educated people's labour is trickling upwards. meanwhile we spend our time bashing each other on the head and being mean-spirited about 'entitled' teachers and 'mediocre' academics. lol. wake up sheeeples!!! there is no spoon!
2019-12-25 14:09:54
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX
I meant senior researcher, who obviously had tenure.

The whole job market has broken up, academics are just one part of it. BMW and Mercedes have now realised they're in trouble because there are no middle managers getting company cars now (they put all their own middle managers on contracts) so the large sedan segment is effectively gone.
Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 14:11:43
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3990
Tenure in public schooling is there to protect teachers from insane parents and false allegations of racism and child abuse. It's not fair to put people through years of education for jobs they could lose instantly because of lies and fake news.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2019-12-25 14:13:56
uziq
Member
+498|3722
i have a huge amount of respect for teachers at all levels. it takes a lot to turn your focus to that. marketing assistants developing ad campaigns for peanut brands make twice as much. i refuse to get angry or mean-spirited about teachers. the profession is literally a public good. the market puts a higher value on thousands of shittier careers.
2019-12-25 14:15:25
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5628|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Tenure in public schooling is there to protect teachers from insane parents and false allegations of racism and child abuse. It's not fair to put people through years of education for jobs they could lose instantly because of lies and fake news.
Meanwhile you've made real racist and abusive statements towards children and you're protected for life with zero accountability.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-12-25 14:19:15
uziq
Member
+498|3722
macbeth's persona on here is ridiculous and obviously pantomime. i don't really think your average tenured high-school teacher is going home and making racist slurs about her children on the internet because she's 'protected' by tenure. that's not how it works.
2019-12-25 14:31:54
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3990

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Tenure in public schooling is there to protect teachers from insane parents and false allegations of racism and child abuse. It's not fair to put people through years of education for jobs they could lose instantly because of lies and fake news.
Meanwhile you've made real racist and abusive statements towards children and you're protected for life with zero accountability.
It's okay. I am working towards becoming a cop soon anyway.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2019-12-25 14:45:51
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Tenure in public schooling is there to protect teachers from insane parents and false allegations of racism and child abuse. It's not fair to put people through years of education for jobs they could lose instantly because of lies and fake news.
Meanwhile you've made real racist and abusive statements towards children and you're protected for life with zero accountability.
Still waiting to hear why you don't follow through on your own ideology.
Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 14:49:24
uziq
Member
+498|3722
Boeing’s former CEO gets up to $58.5 million after 346 passengers died on his watch.

Bloomberg - worth $54 billion - used prison labor on his campaign.

The Walton family – worth over $200 billion - denied holiday pay to its $11 an hour workers.

but fuck teachers for whining for fairer working conditions. total leeches! jay reads the national review, maybe someday he will bump into these people at a lobster fair in maine.

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-25 14:50:40)

2019-12-25 15:27:47
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX
I don't have a problem with teachers being fairly paid, a lot of them are more than fairly paid but still gripe.
The music teacher I know is planning to buy a holiday home and a Landcruiser to make the 800km round trip to it at the weekends - I'm guessing he's fairly paid.
My sister does payroll for a school, they're very fairly paid and get plenty of perks, yet they do nothing but gripe and cause trouble.
People don't want to deal with other people's kids, its instinctive, most people don't want to deal with their own kids. I imagine it makes for a lot of stress. I'd last 5 minutes before a "shut up ya little shit" got me fired.

They are free to shift careers if they don't like the pay, just like many other people are forced to, and with 99% of people one month away from the dole I don't see why they should get a job for life.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-12-25 15:34:37)

Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 15:53:01
uziq
Member
+498|3722
i agree, trying to create stability for those responsible for teaching your children and guiding them through exams is a stupid idea. why can't teachers be dismissed like CAD operators?
2019-12-25 16:00:29
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX
You need continuity in CAD operators, if you chop and change you get inefficiency and a dogs breakfast of a design.
Picking up someone elses CAD is like picking up someone elses code, it can be horrible.

Teachers running lessons to a fixed syllabus which has been static for decades and a written lesson plan? No more so really.

Teachers have no trouble taking sabbaticals, which no-one else gets, sick leave, changing jobs mid-term when it suits them and leaving kids in the hands of substitutes or temps. Continuity for the students is not their priority, I don't see why they should be treated differently from other employees in other fields for this supposed reason.
Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 16:13:48
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3990
The obsession with teacher pay and benefits is sort of ridiculous compared to the other issues regarding hiring, training, retaining, and supervising teachers. Those areas need drastic reforms but Jay and Dilbert want to screw over the middle class complainer teacher who would be just as much of a selfish middle class complainer if she did something different since "whiny middle class" is just her culture built over generations.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2019-12-25 17:09:26
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX
All people in all jobs need stability and continuity and its good for society for them to have it, there's no real reason people teaching kids to use crayons should have a job for life any more than anyone in a different career.
Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 17:18:59
uziq
Member
+498|3722
all boats rise with the tide dilbert. people unionising and improving their working conditions in a totally different career to you is not robbing you of anything. if you're unhappy about your own job security, you could ... you know ... stop wasting energy shitting on teachers?
2019-12-25 17:36:22
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5628|London, England
Again, the issue I have is with public sector unions. Every year my property tax rate increases. This money goes to pay for raises well above cost of living increases for teachers, cops etc. Why? Because the people that vote for the increases have their political campaigns funded by the unions they are responsible to negotiate against. Every year the budget expands well past the cost of living, which further drives up the cost of living, which in turn acts as their justification for demanding more. We now have the highest property taxes in the country, the highest paid teachers and cops. All this and our schools have gotten worse, not better. The more our cops are paid, the less chances they're willing to take, and the more crime we get to deal with.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2019-12-25 17:52:29
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Again, the issue I have is with public sector unions. Every year my property tax rate increases. This money goes to pay for raises well above cost of living increases for teachers, cops etc. Why? Because the people that vote for the increases have their political campaigns funded by the unions they are responsible to negotiate against. Every year the budget expands well past the cost of living, which further drives up the cost of living, which in turn acts as their justification for demanding more. We now have the highest property taxes in the country, the highest paid teachers and cops. All this and our schools have gotten worse, not better. The more our cops are paid, the less chances they're willing to take, and the more crime we get to deal with.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Still waiting to hear why you don't follow through on your own ideology.
I'm guessing a socialist paradise is still the best place for you to live, for some undefinable reason. Could it perhaps be the socialism?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-12-25 17:54:10)

Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 17:53:31
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6376|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

all boats rise with the tide dilbert. people unionising and improving their working conditions in a totally different career to you is not robbing you of anything. if you're unhappy about your own job security, you could ... you know ... stop wasting energy shitting on teachers?
I'm not shitting on them, I'm questioning why they should have better rights than any other career.
Fuck Israel
2019-12-25 18:14:50
uziq
Member
+498|3722
they don't have better rights than any other career.

the rights they do have, have mostly been earned through labour struggle, organisation, unionisation, protest, striking, political action.

you are free to do the same within your own industry, should you feel abused or exploited.

it's really pretty fucking simple. almost all of the worker rights that you do enjoy as given 'universals' in the law were EARNED on the back of particular groups organising and taking action, in specific and particular circumstances. stop shitting on people who are using their labour power to negotiate a fairer deal for themselves. too bad if your industry has horrific power imbalances between managers and engineers; it's for YOU to change. aren't you a member of any professional bodies for engineers that are supposed to look out for your best interests and rein in poor working conditions/practices?

christ don't you keep patronising jay about the disjunct between his views and reality? teachers aren't special pleading. you're just being a whiny bitch whilst doing nothing for yourself.

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-25 18:16:22)

2019-12-25 18:47:42
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6955|United States of America
Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight?
For the union makes us strong!

 

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