Archer
rapes face
+161|6816|Canuckistan
Muhammad's Sword

by Uri Avnery
(Saturday September 23 2006)
"The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions."


Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.
Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.
The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.
But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".

In his lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.
As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".
In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?
To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".
These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

When Manuel II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.
At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.
During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.
In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

Is there any truth in Manuel's argument?
The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".
How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.
Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?
Well, they just did not.
For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.
True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.
In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

There is no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?
What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.
Why? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.
Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

The story about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.
Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?
There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.
The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?
Overall, intruiging.

Don't say "Lolz too long to read"
Read, or don't post; Simple.

Last edited by Archer (2006-09-25 16:04:50)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,068|7164|PNW

Well, then I suppose the Koran I read is wrong or, more likely, certain Muslims weren't faithful enough to turn down potential profit when dealing with outsiders to the faith. And while the scholar that wrote this mentioned the Ottomans on numerous occasions, the history of their Janissaries was neglected. I don't think Muslim leaderships helping themselves to Christian youths for induction into another faith and for military conditioning did much to help Europe's perception of Islam.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-25 16:13:29)

vedds
Member
+52|7147|Christchurch New Zealand
Nice piece of propaganda, but wrong.
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6978|Montreal
Whatever Mohammed led an army and killed thousands of people. I don't care how this article spins it, he was a terrorist who conquered others by force. Say what you will about Jesus' followers, Jesus himself never hurt anyone. And I am not even Christian I am an atheist.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7067|Canberra, AUS
Truth be said, the above two posters are correct.

Islam WAS spread by the sword.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Tetrino
International OMGWTFBBQ
+200|7123|Uhh... erm...
Islam may HAVE been spread by the sword after Muhammad's death, but Islam is not MEANT to be spread by the sword. Muhammad only fought in self-defense. When he was alienated by his family, he took his followers to Madinah, where he was appointed as governer WILLINGLY by the residents. His family grew worried with Islam's rapid growth because it would displace their 'Jahiliah' way of life. They took the fight to him. His followers WILLINGLY fought back. After a while, he negotiated with the Meccan ruling council, to make a truce, which included a withdrawal of arms for 10 years. Who broke that truce? The Quraisy, after 2 years, slaughtered an independant Muslim clan who were engaging a 'Jahiliah' clan. Muhammad is a man of peace. His religion is one of peace. Extremists are no longer part of that religion.
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|7046

Spark wrote:

Truth be said, the above two posters are correct.

Islam WAS spread by the sword.
'Spread by the sword' implies forced conversion.  That's a common misconception.  But lots of Westerners try to make it true by constantly repeating it. 

And if you just mean that the wars gave Islam a chance to spread, what about the many missions were set up in countries conquered by the British... does that mean Christianity was spread by the sword?  Or what about the fact that Christian Aid that follows the American war effort wherever it goes, (semi-covertly) converting people to Christianity?  Actually, a better way to put it would be "Christianity is spread by the gun."

Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-09-26 00:11:41)

SpaceApollyon
Scratch where it itches
+41|6912|Finland
My take on what happened:

1. Pope said what he said.
2. Islamic people state that they aren't violent people.
3. Islamic radicals attack and burn churches.

I know that our western media is not objective, but when they present the above events one after another, how can anyone still think that Islam is all about peace. Radicals or extremist or not, they are very much part of the Muslim world and the religion known as Islam.

Christianity has just as bad or even worse history of violence. And I think they are as power hungry now as they were before. Neither one of these world religions is a religion of peace. They are religions spread by the sword and awesome tools of power. And as such, they are much more human than divine.
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6978|Montreal
Yes Christianity was spread by the sword (or gun or bomb or whatever) but NOT by Jesus. Islam was spread by the sword by Mohammed himself. That's the difference.
PRiMACORD
Member
+190|7017|Home of the Escalade Herds

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Whatever Mohammed led an army and killed thousands of people. I don't care how this article spins it, he was a terrorist who conquered others by force. Say what you will about Jesus' followers, Jesus himself never hurt anyone. And I am not even Christian I am an atheist.
Mohammed was a terrorist? I guess whenever a Muslim fights it's terrorism right? You are a dim one aren't you.

Tetrino wrote:

Islam may HAVE been spread by the sword after Muhammad's death, but Islam is not MEANT to be spread by the sword. Muhammad only fought in self-defense. When he was alienated by his family, he took his followers to Madinah, where he was appointed as governer WILLINGLY by the residents. His family grew worried with Islam's rapid growth because it would displace their 'Jahiliah' way of life. They took the fight to him. His followers WILLINGLY fought back. After a while, he negotiated with the Meccan ruling council, to make a truce, which included a withdrawal of arms for 10 years. Who broke that truce? The Quraisy, after 2 years, slaughtered an independant Muslim clan who were engaging a 'Jahiliah' clan. Muhammad is a man of peace. His religion is one of peace. Extremists are no longer part of that religion.
qft

Last edited by PRiMACORD (2006-09-26 00:41:21)

mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7156|d
That's a good read, people saying all these arrogant things probably didn't even read the article fully. Anyway its interesting how the author is somewhat saying that Modern Jews take a view on Islam on face value. Where as an in-dept look at history clearly shows Jews were welcomed to Muslim countries, while Christians were busy killing.

Another thing is that, this article shows how Muslims and Jews can live together.

Mohammad and Jesus were both great men.
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6978|Montreal

PRiMACORD wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Whatever Mohammed led an army and killed thousands of people. I don't care how this article spins it, he was a terrorist who conquered others by force. Say what you will about Jesus' followers, Jesus himself never hurt anyone. And I am not even Christian I am an atheist.
Mohammed was a terrorist? I guess whenever a Muslim fights it's terrorism right? You are a dim one aren't you.
Yes he killed his enemies and all those who opposed him. To kill others who disagree with you is terrorism. Why is Dubya called World's #1 Terrorist on all those t-shirts the left wears? Because he is behind the killings of thousands of innocent people. Same thing with Osama. And the same with Mohammed. It has nothing to do with religion I couldn't care less what religion you belong to. If you kill people to get your way, you are a terrorist. And that is how Mohammed did things.
vedds
Member
+52|7147|Christchurch New Zealand
The big difference between Muslims and Christians is not in the way their religeons were spread. It is very easy to find evidence of both being "Spread by the Sword".

The real difference is that while Christians who propogated their faith via violence were disobeying directly the teachings of Jesus, (I was going to use the term their Prophet, but that would be insulting  to Christians who believe he is the son of god.) who was categorically against violence; While Islamists who use violence and threats to make conversions can very rightly show that they are following the teachings of their Prophet.

Simply put, Christianity Spread by the Sword is a transgression of the rules put in place by its "founder" where Islam in the same conditions is faithful to the teachings of its "founder"
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7067|Canberra, AUS
Read up on islamic history. For the second time I have to go against my 'faction', Islam was spread primarily via the Islamic empire.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
vedds
Member
+52|7147|Christchurch New Zealand
UMMMMmm spark if you want a modern day example how about Olaf Wiig and Steve Centani?

Or if you prefer straight from the Koran

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Edit: Capitalization on "Koran"

Last edited by vedds (2006-09-26 23:26:35)

bogo24dk
Member
+26|6898
Vedds and what does 009.004 say ? And when you have read the 009.004 link it with 005 .

And then you can find some more anwsers here .
Misconception 7
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/mi … l#HEADING3
--->[Your]Phobia<---
Member
+35|7149|UK - England

vedds wrote:

UMMMMmm spark if you want a modern day example how about Olaf Wiig and Steve Centani?

Or if you prefer straight from the Koran

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Edit: Capitalization on "Koran"
Read here the second post Originally Posted by HeldUp (its in quote.

Oh and its Qur'an not Koran.
Tetrino
International OMGWTFBBQ
+200|7123|Uhh... erm...
Show me proof that Muhammad killed whoever disagreed with him. Show me proof that Islam encourages forced conversions.

Soo, when the Church killed all the scientists who disagreed with them, they're terrorists?
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6912|Πάϊ
One serious objection:

Uri Avnery wrote:

the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.
Peacefully is not the correct word here... Although I despise the Pope and everything he represents I must say that if he opposes Turkey's entry in the EU he is quite right to do so. At the moment "peaceful" Turkey illegally occupies the north of Cyprus. Its prisons are full of political prisoners. The Turkish government is relentlessly hunting down the Kurds whose land they robbed. Basic human rights simply do not exist etc etc. Ever since the days of the Ottoman Empire the Turks have always had an aggressive and expansive policy. Certainly this has not changed today, so lets not put all the Muslim peoples in one basket.

Other than that, I will agree that the Christians have always been the most aggressive in the spreading of their religion.

And all of you guys who dismiss this article as propaganda, I challenge you to say which part you consider untrue same as I did. Condemning with no reason just because it suits you is plain stupid and it proves you are ignorant pricks who will follow a dumb leader like GWB like lambs to the slaughter house.
ƒ³
vedds
Member
+52|7147|Christchurch New Zealand

bogo24dk wrote:

Vedds and what does 009.004 say ? And when you have read the 009.004 link it with 005 .

Koran wrote:

[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
I dont see how that alters the message of 9.5........

bogo24dk wrote:

And then you can find some more anwsers here .
Misconception 7
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/mi … l#HEADING3
I'm sorry but if that was meant to convince me that Islam has never been "spread by the sword" it didnt serve its purpose.  What I could make is a direction not to kill the innocent, admirable, however I failed to note a definition of the innocent. Is an idolator considered an innocent? What if he has not heard the word of Islam? What if he has, but chooses to ignore it? What if he has brokered no agreement with the believers? What if his agreement had ended and the duty of the believers has been discharged, Would they then have to repent, pray and pay a tax? Will they then still recieve the mercy of Allah if they don't?

Now i'm not an expert on the Koran by any means, I have read very little of it ( working on that slowly) but if anything this backs up my original point. It is possible to justify forced conversion from the Koran.

Koran wrote:

[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Interestingly this was the phrase used at the start of the Centani-Wiig conversion video.

Its a great point, basically the true path is clear and if you convert it is because you have "seen the light" so to speak, whereas those who choose to not convert are embracing "shaitan" and are no longer "the innocent" ergo they are not protected. The logic is that they(any unbeliever) chooses to convert, not because of the sabre poised above their neck and the certain death that will follow, but, because the rightious path has made itself clear.  Therefore they have not been forced, as it is impossible to convert via coercion. As opposed to taking that statement at face value - as described in misconception 7.
vedds
Member
+52|7147|Christchurch New Zealand

--->[Your]Phobia<--- wrote:

Read here the second post Originally Posted by HeldUp (its in quote.

Oh and its Qur'an not Koran.
Koran is a traditional English transliteration from the arabic term.

Thats a good post, I think I need to make a few things clear at this point, lest my argument be misconstrued.

1. I do Not believe all Muslims are Terrorists, or Evil, or hate the west.
2. I dont have a problem with individuals because of their religion.
3. I am not a Christian.
4. I am not attacking Islam.

Tetrino wrote:

Show me proof that Muhammad killed whoever disagreed with him. Show me proof that Islam encourages forced conversions.
Whoa there fella, I never said Mohammed killed whoever disagreed with him, or that Islam encourages forced conversions. What I said was that there is a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam.
Terrorists CAN use the Koran to justify their actions because of the content, Mohammed was a warrior, He killed people. Jesus was not. A Christian can never turn to an example of Jesus killing anyone and transliterate that to a current circumstance. However the Hadiths do detail Mohammed waging war, a radical muslim can take verses from the Koran and convince themselves that God wants them to Kill in his name, not neccesarily because this is the intent but because of the nature of the Islamic Prophet. The New Testament does not contain an equivalent of Jesus advocating or partaking in a killing. A radical Christian who kills because they think that is what god wants, cannot console themselves that Jesus ever did so, or advocated killing. They are acting categorically against the teachings of their prophet.That is a fundamental difference between the religions.

Tetrino wrote:

Soo, when the Church killed all the scientists who disagreed with them, they're terrorists?
Short answer, Yes. They were effectivly enforcing their beliefs (and also their political authority) with the threat of death. thats pretty much terrorism in my book.  I doubt anyone can seriously argue that christianity has been blameless or has not used war and the threat of death to spread.

oug wrote:

And all of you guys who dismiss this article as propaganda, I challenge you to say which part you consider untrue same as I did. Condemning with no reason just because it suits you is plain stupid and it proves you are ignorant pricks who will follow a dumb leader like GWB like lambs to the slaughter house.
I will give you that my initial response to this post was flippant and i should have takent he time to respond in a fuller form. Its now 10 mins to midnight and im struggling to keep my eyes open, so I will leave this for tommorrow, but I promise you I will respond properly oug. By the way the GWB thing is a little uncalled for, and irrelevant.
Jainus
Member
+30|6969|Herts, UK

bogo24dk wrote:

Vedds and what does 009.004 say ? And when you have read the 009.004 link it with 005 .

And then you can find some more anwsers here .
Misconception 7
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/mi … l#HEADING3

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html#HEADING3 wrote:

"Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause."
First blindingly obvious question; what constitutes "just cause"? Thats not the ultimate rejection of violence you claim it to be now is it? Its saying you can kill someone as long as your cause is "just". I invite you try and offer up the "limits" that the Muslims can go to as well quoting from the Koran (and yes it is Koran as we're speaking in English).

Koran wrote:

[2:190-192] ...but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers.
Nice... now i've taken this bit where its talking about the unbelievers who have persecuted the Muslims (thought it was only fair to give it context), but it still says quite clearly you can kill them. No where have i been able to find what constitutes "just cause" within the Koran, so its open to interpretation. Thats how terrorsists can claim to follow the teachings of the Koran.

You've proved nothing.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6942|Southeastern USA
I'd still like to see the entire transcript of the pope's speech, as I understand it he was bringing it up as a matter of debate just as this author has, kinda like when the Harvard president brought up the "women and men are psychologically different" subject (and it's just asinine to deny our brains are wired different) and got crucified once it was portrayed as him saying "women are dumber than men"
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6953

PRiMACORD wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Whatever Mohammed led an army and killed thousands of people. I don't care how this article spins it, he was a terrorist who conquered others by force. Say what you will about Jesus' followers, Jesus himself never hurt anyone. And I am not even Christian I am an atheist.
Mohammed was a terrorist? I guess whenever a Muslim fights it's terrorism right? You are a dim one aren't you.

Tetrino wrote:

Islam may HAVE been spread by the sword after Muhammad's death, but Islam is not MEANT to be spread by the sword. Muhammad only fought in self-defense. When he was alienated by his family, he took his followers to Madinah, where he was appointed as governer WILLINGLY by the residents. His family grew worried with Islam's rapid growth because it would displace their 'Jahiliah' way of life. They took the fight to him. His followers WILLINGLY fought back. After a while, he negotiated with the Meccan ruling council, to make a truce, which included a withdrawal of arms for 10 years. Who broke that truce? The Quraisy, after 2 years, slaughtered an independant Muslim clan who were engaging a 'Jahiliah' clan. Muhammad is a man of peace. His religion is one of peace. Extremists are no longer part of that religion.
qft
Muslims are the enemies of Christians and vice versa. That is not an ignorrant statement, may be unpopular but it is the reality.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6888
Muslims and christians are not enemies. Muslims were once (think middle ages) the enemies of christians. Christians may have been the enemies of some small factions of muslims. But now, neither is the enemy of the other.

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