fair enough
Baba Booey
Baba Booey
I was reading a debate about guns on another forum and gun shows came up. Is it true that gun laws are ignored at these and you can buy guns without background and permit checks. I live in NJ so don't gun culture is foreign to me.
Can not speak for the rest but try to purchase a firearm within a gun show in NC and watch as they laugh if you don't provide the ID and paperworkMacbeth wrote:
I was reading a debate about guns on another forum and gun shows came up. Is it true that gun laws are ignored at these and you can buy guns without background and permit checks. I live in NJ so don't gun culture is foreign to me.
now
outside of the building ..... thats a different story
The "gun show loophole" is actually private transactions. Dealers, those in the business and have a license to deal firearms, must still have the buyer complete the required paperwork, pass a background check and anything else that may be required by state law. Private transactions are popular at gun shows, but they can take place anywhere. The media will often refer to these private sellers as dealers or unlicensed dealers. Being a "dealer" without a license is illegal.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html
Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
[27 CFR 478.11]
Last edited by west-phoenix-az (2011-12-27 11:33:23)
I heard here in Ventura you can get them at the gun show without paperwork or a background check. I know a few people who have unregistered guns.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
you should totally do this
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Well, the reason they got them unregistered is that they're a little paranoid, and probably rightfully so, about the government taking away certain weapons with new laws and crap. So a few of 'em have one or two unregistered guns for their defense if the big brother ever decides to swing his dick too much. That being said, I'll probably never get an unregistered gun. I don't want the legal implications if I'm caught, but it's an idea I'm not completely against.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
half of my inventory doesn't have a papertrail that ends with me
private transactions
How did you manage that?SEREMAKER wrote:
half of my inventory doesn't have a papertrail that ends with me
I've never known what the process for purchasing a weapon is.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
several different ways-Sh1fty- wrote:
How did you manage that?SEREMAKER wrote:
half of my inventory doesn't have a papertrail that ends with me
I've never known what the process for purchasing a weapon is.
main way : http://www.iwanna.com/For_Sale/Guns_and_Bows looked through to see if I see something I want - call the owner - negotiate a cash settlement - take home and enjoy
Wait so if you buy a gun outside of a gun show and the person who sold you the weapon doesn't take down your info and the gun ends up in a murder then?west-phoenix-az wrote:
The "gun show loophole" is actually private transactions. Dealers, those in the business and have a license to deal firearms, must still have the buyer complete the required paperwork, pass a background check and anything else that may be required by state law. Private transactions are popular at gun shows, but they can take place anywhere. The media will often refer to these private sellers as dealers or unlicensed dealers. Being a "dealer" without a license is illegal.http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html
Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
[27 CFR 478.11]
Stop trolling kthx-Sh1fty- wrote:
Well, the reason they got them unregistered is that they're a little paranoid, and probably rightfully so, about the government taking away certain weapons with new laws and crap. So a few of 'em have one or two unregistered guns for their defense if the big brother ever decides to swing his dick too much. That being said, I'll probably never get an unregistered gun. I don't want the legal implications if I'm caught, but it's an idea I'm not completely against.
of course different state to state but in NC that s happen but its holder not the owner that in trouble .... same principle if you're house was broken into and firearms were stolen, should you be convicted if you're stolen firearm was usedMacbeth wrote:
Wait so if you buy a gun outside of a gun show and the person who sold you the weapon doesn't take down your info and the gun ends up in a murder then?west-phoenix-az wrote:
The "gun show loophole" is actually private transactions. Dealers, those in the business and have a license to deal firearms, must still have the buyer complete the required paperwork, pass a background check and anything else that may be required by state law. Private transactions are popular at gun shows, but they can take place anywhere. The media will often refer to these private sellers as dealers or unlicensed dealers. Being a "dealer" without a license is illegal.http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html
Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
[27 CFR 478.11]
Well if I bought a gun like that and used it to kill someone randomly and dropped the gun... it won't be able to be traced to me. At that point the last owner should recieve some penalty for not recording info or reporting a transfer.
I am not antigun or trying to troll or anything, I don't feel like making a DST thread if I can just talk about it here without people getting into flame wars and all
I am not antigun or trying to troll or anything, I don't feel like making a DST thread if I can just talk about it here without people getting into flame wars and all
When the police find a firearm at a crime scene they will check the state registration records (if the state requires registration) for owner information and National Crime Information Center (NCIC) database to see if the firearm had been reported stolen or missing. If the firearm is not in the database they will attempt to trace it through the paper trail.
Manufacturer/importer > distributor > dealer > buyer
The dealer will have the 4473 form on file. Dealers are required to keep the record for 20 years. The police will contact the original purchaser, whose name is on the 4473, and ask about the firearm. The buyer may have information on who they sold it to and they might not. Many states don't require bill of sale or recording of private transactions. If nothing is known about the buyer the police will need to find another way to find the murderer.
Manufacturer/importer > distributor > dealer > buyer
The dealer will have the 4473 form on file. Dealers are required to keep the record for 20 years. The police will contact the original purchaser, whose name is on the 4473, and ask about the firearm. The buyer may have information on who they sold it to and they might not. Many states don't require bill of sale or recording of private transactions. If nothing is known about the buyer the police will need to find another way to find the murderer.
Last edited by west-phoenix-az (2011-12-27 13:33:53)
Which is where the US system is just daft. Why should there be a paper trail if you buy from a dealer but not if you buy privately?
Pick a 100% system or don't bother, what you have now just feeds the criminals a supply of untraceable guns.
Pick a 100% system or don't bother, what you have now just feeds the criminals a supply of untraceable guns.
Fuck Israel
Really fun bit of it?Dilbert_X wrote:
Which is where the US system is just daft. Why should there be a paper trail if you buy from a dealer but not if you buy privately?
Pick a 100% system or don't bother, what you have now just feeds the criminals a supply of untraceable guns.
It's technically legal to build your own weapons from scratch, as long as they're for personal use.
So, get some billet 7076 aluminum,
CAD files for an AR-15 lower, AR-10, M1911, Sig 228, or Beretta 92
and borrow a CNC mill.
Tada! AR-15 lower.
All the other parts are unregistered, except the lower.
Don't have to build them, just order a bunch direct from the manufacturers.
There are other sites with full blueprints for suppressors too.
Decent manual (non CNC) lathe, and you've suppressors.
The point being, if you're of criminal intent, and want to mass produce unregistered firearms, machine guns, or suppressors, it's stupid simple to do so.
(Just don't try this at home, kids. Felonies are for life, and Big Bubba the penal lifer likes his cellmates young n' fresh)
The point of US firearms legislation isn't to actually prevent firearms being used by criminals, it's to make the average citizen think there's a system in place to protect them.
Just like the TSA at airports...
So again, either require that home made weapons be registered, as they are in many countries, or don't bother registering any of them.
I can make my own guns, I just need to stamp a number on them and register them to stay within the law - and make them within certain specifications.
The funny think here is that barrels aren't registered, so in theory people can commit a crime, replace their barrel and they'll be untraceable.
I can make my own guns, I just need to stamp a number on them and register them to stay within the law - and make them within certain specifications.
The funny think here is that barrels aren't registered, so in theory people can commit a crime, replace their barrel and they'll be untraceable.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-12-27 18:17:53)
Fuck Israel
then police have to do their jobMacbeth wrote:
Wait so if you buy a gun outside of a gun show and the person who sold you the weapon doesn't take down your info and the gun ends up in a murder then?west-phoenix-az wrote:
The "gun show loophole" is actually private transactions. Dealers, those in the business and have a license to deal firearms, must still have the buyer complete the required paperwork, pass a background check and anything else that may be required by state law. Private transactions are popular at gun shows, but they can take place anywhere. The media will often refer to these private sellers as dealers or unlicensed dealers. Being a "dealer" without a license is illegal.http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html
Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
[27 CFR 478.11]
Picking up a gun off of a crime scene and tracing it instead of paper trails leading nowhere would be nice. Making the police jobs easier would benefit all of society. I know someone leaving a gun on a crime scene doesn't happen too often but when there is no good reason to not put a registration system in place that could track them..krazed wrote:
then police have to do their jobMacbeth wrote:
Wait so if you buy a gun outside of a gun show and the person who sold you the weapon doesn't take down your info and the gun ends up in a murder then?west-phoenix-az wrote:
The "gun show loophole" is actually private transactions. Dealers, those in the business and have a license to deal firearms, must still have the buyer complete the required paperwork, pass a background check and anything else that may be required by state law. Private transactions are popular at gun shows, but they can take place anywhere. The media will often refer to these private sellers as dealers or unlicensed dealers. Being a "dealer" without a license is illegal.
Sorry for the derail this should get it back on track -> Anyone here tried those Sagias that popped up online before?
there's a perfectly good reason not to put a tracking registration system in place
government enforced confiscations (which is happening here with yet another semi auto rifle, with no compensation to the owner... just a letter of give it to us now or we arrest you)
you know what would make police jobs super easy? finger print and DNA testing when you're born. our police agencies fought tooth and nail AGAINST having a charter signed with our rights of what they can and can't do to us without just cause..... their reasoning was "it will make our job too difficult"
so forgive me if i'm reluctant to trust the police to decide what's best for them
sadly not, as i cannot own or purchase a saiga. although they look neat, i'm not sure how good they actually are? i'm not much of a shotgun person
government enforced confiscations (which is happening here with yet another semi auto rifle, with no compensation to the owner... just a letter of give it to us now or we arrest you)
you know what would make police jobs super easy? finger print and DNA testing when you're born. our police agencies fought tooth and nail AGAINST having a charter signed with our rights of what they can and can't do to us without just cause..... their reasoning was "it will make our job too difficult"
so forgive me if i'm reluctant to trust the police to decide what's best for them
sadly not, as i cannot own or purchase a saiga. although they look neat, i'm not sure how good they actually are? i'm not much of a shotgun person
Couple points on private transactions:
1. Don't do them with residents of other states (federal law)
2. Know and follow state and local laws.
Some states require all firearm transfers to go through FFLs (it sucks, IMO, that a dad has to pay $35 in order to give his son a firearm, in CA.)
Some states require private party firearm transfers at gun shows to go through an FFL. (Colorado for example)
1. Don't do them with residents of other states (federal law)
2. Know and follow state and local laws.
Some states require all firearm transfers to go through FFLs (it sucks, IMO, that a dad has to pay $35 in order to give his son a firearm, in CA.)
Some states require private party firearm transfers at gun shows to go through an FFL. (Colorado for example)
Pops bought me a Ruger 22/45. Goes well with my breech loading .410 that's 100 years old. I have the arsenal of a 10 year old boy.
I guess the 22/45 is good since I plan to own a 1911 in the not-to-distant future...
I guess the 22/45 is good since I plan to own a 1911 in the not-to-distant future...
Here is a article about the ballistic fingerprint database, the cost and failure of the system. Makes people feel good though
http://www.crimemuseum.org/blog/ballist … -database/
Ballistic “Fingerprint” Database
A ballistic fingerprint database is a computerized database of markings on bullet casings made by legally purchased guns. The idea is much the same as the fingerprint database AFIS or the DNA database CODIS, both of which house input known data to have to compare to unknowns found at crime scenes.
Both New York and Maryland have computerized ballistic fingerprint databases, both states have legal mandates that require all firearms manufacturers to provide, a spent cartridge and prepare ballistics images of the bullets and cartridge casings and provide the records so that the state’s law-enforcement agencies can access it, for every firearm legally sold; the law also requires that the name, address and Social Security number of the person purchasing the firearm be linked to the ballistics information. The law, and the database, is based on the theory that that every gun marks shells and bullets in specific, stable, identifiable ways. The reason casings are used is because firearm that produce marks on cartridge cases are less subject to long-term wear. This theory, unfortunately, has not been scientifically proven. In fact, the markings left by a gun on a casing are not guaranteed to be the same over the long term and can be deliberately changed with simple tools such as a file or metal brush.
Another problem with the ballistic fingerprint database, as it stands, is that only new gun purchases are beholden to the law, meaning that the millions of already purchased guns cannot be traced via the database. Other concerns include the fact that less than 1% of legally sold guns will ever be used in a crime, guaranteeing wasted effort. Beyond that, nearly 90% of guns used in crimes change hands at least once after their initial purchase at a licensed dealer before being used in crimes; it has been estimated that nearly 40% of guns used by criminals are either stolen from their rightful owners or purchased on the black market.
There is also fault with the potential usefulness of such a database. California did some extensive testing to assess the accuracy of such a database and they found that when shell casings used with a particular gun came from the same manufacturer the computer failed to match the correct casing to its gun 38% of the time; when casings came from different manufacturers the failure rate was 62%. These false matches waste the time of ballistic examiners who are left ruling out matches made by the computer database.
New York has had its database up and running since 2002 and has since entered data from over 200,000 new gun purchases and has spent approximately $1,000,000 a year on its system. By 2007 the system had not led to a single solved crime.
Fingerprint and DNA databases see their success from the fact that neither identifier is subject to change, a person is stuck with the DNA and fingerprints they are born with, but this is not the same for a gun and its parts. The parts of the gun that are responsible for marking a shell casing are the breech face, extractor, ejector, and firing pin, all of which can be purposefully altered with specific tools or all of which may change with time and normal wear. Although the idea of a ballistic database is appealing given the large amount of gun violence in the US, unfortunately the ease with which guns can be altered appears to throw a monkey wrench in the idea.