mcgid1
Meh...
+129|6979|Austin, TX/San Antonio, TX
Sorry to divert from the DE discussion, but I just got this back from the gunsmith today after having him confirm what I already thought.

This is probably the worst made gun ever to be posted in this thread:

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/8183/IMG_0262%5B1%5D.JPG

A Japanese "Last Ditch" Type 99 from produced anywhere from late 1944 to the end of the war.  I will never fire this thing because there's a good chance it will explode.

And discussion of the over sized hand cannon can now resume
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6843|the dank(super) side of Oregon
The last ditch arisakas have their own unique charm.  They're a great tangible expression of just how desparate the Japanese were at the end.

btw: nice floor.

Last edited by Reciprocity (2010-06-21 20:28:34)

mcgid1
Meh...
+129|6979|Austin, TX/San Antonio, TX

Reciprocity wrote:

The last ditch arisakas have their own unique charm.  They're a great tangible expression of just how desperate the Japanese were at the end.

btw: nice floor.
Thanks, lol.

Also, the desperation aspect kind of the reason I decided to get it.  They're an interesting, if dangerously unusable, piece of history.  This one happened to have the Imperial Seal intact as well, which I had never seen before on a gun I could reasonably expect to purchase.

Last edited by mcgid1 (2010-06-21 20:39:51)

FloppY_
­
+1,010|6548|Denmark aka Automotive Hell

Reciprocity wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Yeah seriously, what a dick move. Recip, is the recoil really as bad as it looks, or is she just really, really weak?
No, it's not too bad.  The recoil is definitely more stout than any .45.  You just need a good firm, two handed grip to really keep it under control.  There's a fair amount of snap from the .50AE.  Empty shells eject straight up, so sometimes you'll get a hot shell between the eyes if you let the recoil get the better of you.  9mm and .45 pistols feel like toys after setting off a few rounds from the DE.  The large caliber revolvers in .500S&W and the like are not nearly as comfortable to shoot, and not as fun.  I like my hand cannons in semiautomatic form.   

I certainly wouldn't hand a DE to an inexperienced shooter.  And when I do let someone shoot it, the first round is always a loner.  I don't need someone double-tapping and taking their own head off.
And unlike a revolver, a desert eagle won't cut your thumbs of if you are not carefull...
­ Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6912

mcgid1 wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

The last ditch arisakas have their own unique charm.  They're a great tangible expression of just how desperate the Japanese were at the end.

btw: nice floor.
Thanks, lol.

Also, the desperation aspect kind of the reason I decided to get it.  They're an interesting, if dangerously unusable, piece of history.  This one happened to have the Imperial Seal intact as well, which I had never seen before on a gun I could reasonably expect to purchase.
What was wrong with them that made them so dangerous? Just really cheap, fast, casting methods?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6368|eXtreme to the maX
Pressure bearing parts of firearms are rarely cast, especially rifles which can be very high pressure.
Fuck Israel
mcgid1
Meh...
+129|6979|Austin, TX/San Antonio, TX

ghettoperson wrote:

mcgid1 wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

The last ditch arisakas have their own unique charm.  They're a great tangible expression of just how desperate the Japanese were at the end.

btw: nice floor.
Thanks, lol.

Also, the desperation aspect kind of the reason I decided to get it.  They're an interesting, if dangerously unusable, piece of history.  This one happened to have the Imperial Seal intact as well, which I had never seen before on a gun I could reasonably expect to purchase.
What was wrong with them that made them so dangerous? Just really cheap, fast, casting methods?
Basically the metal production in Japan at the time the rifle was made was shit.  They would use whatever was available, which was the wrong or incorrectly produced types of metal more often than not.  Beyond that, the size and spacing of the parts weren't checked and they were being produced in a cottage industry type of manufacture which had almost no quality control.

Overall, I could probably fire the rifle once or twice, but it's a matter of when, not if, it will fail and it's not really worth the risk.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6912

Dilbert_X wrote:

Pressure bearing parts of firearms are rarely cast, especially rifles which can be very high pressure.
How's most of it made? CNC/billet steel?
rdx-fx
...
+955|6854

ghettoperson wrote:

How's most of it made? CNC/billet steel?
drop forged receivers (AR-15 and M-14), starting with round bar stock
Below links have pictures of the process
http://www.lrbarms.com
http://www.lrbarms.com/m14receivers.html
http://www.nps.gov/spar/historyculture/ … armory.htm

CNC or EDM machined receivers and parts
http://www.surgeonrifles.com/about-us/

Barrels:
Button rifled, single point cutting rifled, or hammer forged
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/RSgunsmith1/

Overall manufacturing processes
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/training/f … ir_m04.htm


In short;
  • start with high quality hot rolled bar stock ("billet")
  • drill & cut barrels, or hammer forge barrels around a mandrel
  • CNC, EDM, or machine the small parts
  • hammer forge (drop forge) receiver, or CNC, or EDM.  Rarely, investment casting ... rarely.
  • machine the raw receiver forging (manual machine, CNC, EDM)
  • Assembly
  • Finishing: Parkerize, Anodize, Bluing, Chrome, Bead Blasting, etc etc etc. (many different processes, essentially two concepts - transform the surface layer of the metal into something more corrosion resistant, or coat the metal with a corrosion resistant material)
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6912

ty RDX

Currently watching No Country for Old Men. How ridiculous is the silencer on that shotgun?

Last edited by ghettoperson (2010-06-22 15:25:20)

Wreckognize
Member
+294|6747

mcgid1 wrote:

A Japanese "Last Ditch" Type 99 from produced anywhere from late 1944 to the end of the war.  I will never fire this thing because there's a good chance it will explode.
At least you're covered if you ever need to banzai charge something.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6843|the dank(super) side of Oregon

ghettoperson wrote:

How's most of it made? CNC/billet steel?
machined from forgings, machined from castings and machined from billets are all common manufacturing methods for stress parts.  Steel quality and proper heat treating are critical.  A well treated casting made from good steel is better than a poorly treated forging made from crappy steel.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6854

ghettoperson wrote:

How's most of it made? CNC/billet steel?

Reciprocity wrote:

A well treated casting made from good steel is better than a poorly treated forging made from crappy steel.
That being said, if you find a stressed part that is cast, run.
Unless the company also makes turbine blades for aircraft, I wouldn't trust a cast receiver on a rifle.
Don't care if they think they're doing "investment casting just like on the aircraft"

Note: not to include the AR-15 or similar.  The receiver on that rifle is not truly a stressed part in the same manner that a typical rifle is.
Make the AR-15 receiver out of plastic, just like a Glock or HK, and you'd be fine.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-06-22 21:31:14)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6368|eXtreme to the maX

rdx-fx wrote:

That being said, if you find a stressed part that is cast, run.
Ruger make some of their revolver frames and their mini-14 receivers (rotating bolt - so doesn't matter) by investment casting,.
Otherwise yes.

Shotgun silencers, mufflers are not uncommon, silencing would be pretty hard but not impossible.
Fuck Israel
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6843|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shotgun silencers, mufflers are not uncommon, silencing would be pretty hard but not impossible.
I'm guessing it would only work or only work well with slugs.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6368|eXtreme to the maX

Reciprocity wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shotgun silencers, mufflers are not uncommon, silencing would be pretty hard but not impossible.
I'm guessing it would only work or only work well with slugs.
Why? Pellets are all in the wad until after they leave the barrel.
Won't work with fibre wads obviously.

Realistically it would need to be so large it would be impractical.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-06-23 00:05:45)

Fuck Israel
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6843|the dank(super) side of Oregon
would the wad provide tight enough clearance to make the supressor effective? 



I need a 12 gauge supressor.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6912

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shotgun silencers, mufflers are not uncommon, silencing would be pretty hard but not impossible.
No no, you need to see the movie to see what I mean. For a start it looks like this:

https://www.davehilliard.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/ncfom_chigurh_gun-431x300.jpg

And secondly it sounds like a bunch of compressed air escaping.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6368|eXtreme to the maX
I have seen the film, that silencer is unrealistically small.

Current designs provide some noise reduction but not total silence obviously, I used to know someone with a hushpower, reduced a 12 bore to roughly .410 noise (maybe).



This isn't bad, again not silent, and its a .410 so much less gas than a 12 bore.


Seal isn't too important, it would need to be based on a ported and muffled barrel, not a neoprene washer pistol type add-on I would think.

So for a 12 bore you'd probably need a silencer the size of a fire extinguisher wrapped around the barrel would be my guess, and it wouldn't be super silent - you could still hear some sound straight through the chamber.
Fuck Israel
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6485|Escea

https://www.imfdb.org/images/0/08/NCFOM-REM11-87-3.jpg

Demonstrates how the movie suppressor does nothing for muzzle blast
rdx-fx
...
+955|6854
The shotgun shell uses less powder than a typical rifle round, though the characteristics of a shotgun make handing the resulting propellant gasses more difficult.

Chemically, modern gunpowders are comparable in overall chemical energy content, but differ radically in their burn rate characteristics.  Pistol/shotgun powders burn fast and develop maximum pressure much more rapidly than rifle powder.

So, by weight, a pistol or shotgun powder charge will develop roughly the same uncompressed gas volume that a rifle powder will.
(Though it will be at different pressures and temperatures when it reaches the supressor)

12 gauge shotgun, 3" magnum, 12x #00 buckshot = 25-29 grains of powder
.45 ACP pistol, 230gr bullet = 5-7 grains of powder
7.62x51 NATO, 168gr bullet = 40ish grains of powder
300 WSM, 210gr bullet = 60ish grains of powder.

The reasons a shotgun needs a slightly larger suppressor, relative to a rifle are;
  • Larger bore diameter, larger fraction of the gas wants to keep going through that large hole
  • Lower gas pressure relative to a rifle, less pressure to drive the gasses into the suppressor baffles

(to put it in empirical terms, a shotgun makes a large deep BOOM - a rifle makes sharp medium BANG)


And, unless you're using a bunch of heavy shot moving below 1100fps, you're going to be making a ton of noise with your shot making sonic cracks from moving near mach 1.0. 

The magic number for a suppressable 12ga load would be around 12x #00 buckshot, with a redacted powder charge, moving those 12 rounds of shot at 900fps.
To put it another way, that's about the same as 12 shots from a 9mm pistol with one pull of a shotgun trigger.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-06-23 14:15:47)

mcgid1
Meh...
+129|6979|Austin, TX/San Antonio, TX
Say hello to another Japanese gun that probably never should have been, the type 14 Nambu:

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/8183/IMG_0263%5B1%5D.JPG

An under powered round, shoddy construction, and a safety of questionable functionality makes this one of those guns that I'm glad wasn't on the allied side during WWII.

Last edited by mcgid1 (2010-06-27 18:21:57)

krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|7042|Great Brown North
related

finished the last bit of the restricted course today, sending the paperwork for my licence tomorrow
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6760

mcgid1 wrote:

allied axis side during WWII.
fixed for metallurgical accuracy
Defiance
Member
+438|6933

burnzz wrote:

mcgid1 wrote:

allied axis side during WWII.
fixed for metallurgical accuracy

mcgid1 wrote:

wasn't on the allied side during WWII
I'm missing what exactly your correction corrects..

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