(T)eflon(S)hadow
R.I.P. Neda
+456|7279|Grapevine, TX
JOHN GLENN SAID

    Things that make you think a little:


    There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.
    In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the
    month of January. That's just one American city,
    about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq


    When some claim that President Bush shouldn't
    have started this war, state the following:


    a. FDR led us into World War II.
     

    b. Germany never attacked us ; Japan did.
    >From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ...
    an average of 112,500 per year.


    c. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea ..
    North Korea never attacked us ..
    >From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ...
    an average of 18,334 per year.

    d. John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
    Vietnam never attacked us

    e. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
    >From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost ..
    an average of 5,800 per year.

    f. Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
    Bosnia never attacked us.
    He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
    times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on
    multiple occasions.

    g. In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush
    has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled
    al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya , Iran , and, North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who
    slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.


    The Democrats are complaining
    about how long the war is taking.


    But Wait...


    It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
    to take the Branch Davidian compound.
    That was a 51-day operation..

    We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons
    in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find
    the Rose Law Firm billing records.

    It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the
    Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard
    than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his
    Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.


    It took less time to take Iraq than it took
    to count the votes in Florida !!!!

    Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB !
    The Military morale is high!

    The biased media hopes we are too ignorant
    to realize the facts

    But Wait

    There's more!


    JOHN GLENN (ON THE SENATE FLOOR)
    Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

    Some people still don't understand why military personnel
    do what they do for a living. This exchange between
    Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum
    is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive
    impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one
    man's explanation of why men and women in the armed
    services do what they do for a living.

    This IS a typical, though sad, example of what
    some who have never served think of the military.


    Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn):
    "How can you run for Senate
    when you've never held a real job?"

    Senator Glenn (D-Ohio):
    "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.
    I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions.
    My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different
    occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn't my
    checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was
    not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the
    daily cash receipts to the bank."

    "I ask you to go with me ..! . as I went the other day...
    to a veteran's hospital and look those men ...
    with their mangled bodies  in the eye, and tell THEM
    they didn't hold a job!

    You go with me to the Space Program at NASA
    and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans
    of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee...
    and you look those kids in the eye and tell them
    that their DADS didn't hold a job.

    You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in
    Arlington National Cemetery , where I have more friends
    buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch
    those waving flags.

    You stand there, and you think about this nation,
    and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job?

    What about you?"

    For those who don't remember.
    During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney
    representing the Communist Party in the USA .

    Now he's a Senator!


    If you can read this, thank a teacher.
    If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6811|Vancouver
I'll break this down bit by bit.

Attempting to say that Detroit is as violent as Iraq is an outright lie. It ignores the death and carnage across Iraq, instead pretending that American deaths are the only important statistic.

The first section is simply an attack against Democrats. Yet, not everyone is a Republican or Democrat, and the actions of President Bush cannot be justified by attacking another political party and ignoring what has occurred. So, we'll ignore the first point.

The second point, that "Germany never attacked [the United States]" ignores that fact that Germany did indeed declare war upon the United States, unlike Iraq. The point regarding the amount of deaths is moot, as well. It does not matter the amount of deaths, but how justified the deaths of American servicemen could be. If you truly want to honour veterans, examine what they fought for.

The third point regards the Korean War. Remember that the U.S. fought with U.N. sanction within an international body of armed forces against an aggressor nation that had invaded its neighbour, unlike Iraq had done since the First Gulf War. Acts of aggression could also be found in the Vietnam conflict, which itself was another tragedy, with as little justification as invading Iraq. Additionally, it was the United States supporting a brutal dictatorship in that conflict.

The sixth point, again, has little strength. The actions of a Democrat do not justify the actions of a Republican, or vice versa. You should also check the fact that Bosnia was not the target of NATO forces, and that the United States has never been at war with Bosnia. Once again, it was not a pre-emptive attack as the invasion of Iraq had been.

As for that little paragraph regarding Bush's performance: Both of the two countries "liberated" have barely improved, and soldiers are still required to fight for this "liberation". The people do not want Westerners in their country doing any "liberation". The Taliban lives on, as does al-Qaeda, in part thanks to the efforts of the United States, has done little for reducing proliferation of nuclear arms, and captured a terrorist who, despite     slaughtering 300,000 of his own people, maintains popularity among Iraqis who find the country worse as a democracy than a cruel dictatorship.

True, Iraq fell quickly. But American soldiers still die, and the country has yet to be conquered. In four years, mighty America cannot defeat Iraq. I find it sad that my fellow humans, not only soldiers but civilians too, of any race or nationality are still dying because of the invasion of Iraq.

As for this Senator Metzenbaum, representing the Communist Party as a lawyer is not an evil deed at all. It is simply law. But it is a lie. He never represented the Communist Party.

Thank a veteran for being able to speak English? You honestly believe that the United States would have been conquered, even in Nazi Germany had been able to defeat Britain and the Soviet Union? I do not deny the deeds of veterans, but do not make outlandish claims.
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6942|Connecticut

Drakef wrote:

The second point, that "Germany never attacked [the United States]" ignores that fact that Germany did indeed declare war upon the United States, unlike Iraq.
No, they just celebrated in the streets when our towers fell.

Plus fucking one to Teflon!!
Malloy must go
Drakef
Cheeseburger Logicist
+117|6811|Vancouver

deeznutz1245 wrote:

Drakef wrote:

The second point, that "Germany never attacked [the United States]" ignores that fact that Germany did indeed declare war upon the United States, unlike Iraq.
No, they just celebrated in the streets when our towers fell.

Plus fucking one to Teflon!!
War on the basis of the attitudes of the Iraqi people. How trivial. Never did they declare war on the United States. Iraqis wished to be left alone. And, if your opinion of Iraqis is so poor, why liberate them?
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7139|Tampa Bay Florida
Some people are estimating that a hundred Iraqis die every day.  That may be overexaggerating, but the fact is MANY more people died in Iraq that month than just 39 Americans.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6855|North Carolina
One sentence can defuse everything said by the OP.  Think about all the other things we could've done with $400 billion.

We'd have a lot more to show for if we had spent $400 billion on alternative energy research -- oil would be just another energy source rather than an addiction.

We could've built 35,000 schools in America that WOULDN'T GET BLOWN UP ON A DAILY BASIS.

We could've paid off a small but significant chunk of the national debt with $400 billion.

We might even have a feasible socialized healthcare system if we had spent $400 billion toward it.

We could have a feasible system of border defense to keep out most illegal immigration by spending $400 billion.

There are several better things that could have been done with $400 billion, but I guess military spending is yet another addiction of America.

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-02-21 21:42:25)

jessefer
Member
+6|7120|Florida,U.S.A
that sums it up in a nut shell +1 teflon!!
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|7125|Belgium

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

JOHN GLENN SAID

blah blah bs
There should be a rule on this forum to do some background check about what you're posting, so you don't look like an idiot...

Please read this. The whole story started in 2004 on the Internet as an anonymous e-mail spamming around.

The first part of this bs was already taken care of by Drakef (+1 to you), now let me finish the rest of the story by telling you that the exchange between Glenn and Metzenbaum took place during a debate during a senate election, not on the floor of the US Senate, and moreover, contrary to what the post claimed, it occurred not in 2004 but in 1974.

Also Metzenbaum's Wikipedia page here states that the Communist Party charge is an urban legend. Furthermore, as a lawyer you are entitled to defend your client, even if you don't like what he did. Or maybe your fellow soldiers who killed several civilians in Iraq should not be entitled to a lawyer to defend them?

Now move on, nothing to see here anymore.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6895|The Land of Scott Walker
Well done Teflon. +1  Now the ripping of the OP and John Glenn can continue.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6817|Columbus, Ohio

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the
    Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard
    than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his
    Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.
lol lol lol
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6817|Columbus, Ohio

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
But but but....Bosnia was a threat to us right?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6855|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
But but but....Bosnia was a threat to us right?
Yep, and Iraq was such a massive threat to us as well, right?

Both parties are unfortunately subject to warmongering industries.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6817|Columbus, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
But but but....Bosnia was a threat to us right?
Yep, and Iraq was such a massive threat to us as well, right?

Both parties are unfortunately subject to warmongering industries.
I didn't quote it for people like you or I who understand and remember this.  I quoted for the people who choose to forget or just do not even know for that matter.
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6942|Connecticut

Drakef wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

Drakef wrote:

The second point, that "Germany never attacked [the United States]" ignores that fact that Germany did indeed declare war upon the United States, unlike Iraq.
No, they just celebrated in the streets when our towers fell.

Plus fucking one to Teflon!!
War on the basis of the attitudes of the Iraqi people. How trivial. Never did they declare war on the United States. Iraqis wished to be left alone. And, if your opinion of Iraqis is so poor, why liberate them?
Did I say I wanted to be there? How trivial of you........
Malloy must go
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA
an e-mail I recieved I thought was pretty cool.


There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.
In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city,about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq ..



When some claim that President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following:



A. FDR led us into World War II .

B. Germany never attacked us ; Japan did .
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost . . .
an average of 112,500 per year .



C. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea ..
North Korea never attacked us . .
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost . . .
an average of 18,334 per year .

D. John F . Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962 .
Vietnam never attacked us.

E. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire .
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost . .
an average of 5,800 per year .

F.  Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent .
Bosnia never attacked us ..
He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing . Osama has attacked us on
multiple occasions .

G.  In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush
has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled
al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya , Iran , and, North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who
slaughtered 300,000 of his own people .



The Democrats are complaining
about how long the war is taking .


But Wait



It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
to take the Branch Davidian compound .
That was a 51-day operation . .



We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons
in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find
the Rose Law Firm billing records .



It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the
Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard
than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his
Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick ..



It took less time to take Iraq than it took
to count the votes in Florida !!!!

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB !
The Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant
to realize the facts



But Wait

There's more!



JOHN GLENN (ON THE SENATE FLOOR)
Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13



Some people still don't understand why military personnel
do what they do for a living . This exchange between
Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum
is worth reading . Not only is it a pretty impressive
impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one
man's explanation of why men and women in the armed
services do what they do for a living .


This IS a typical, though sad, example of what
some who have never served think of the military .


Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn):
"How can you run for Senate when you've never held a real job?"



Senator Glenn (D-Ohio):
"I served 23 years in the United StatesMarine Corps .
I served through two wars . I flew 149 missions .
My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different
occasions . I was in the space program . It wasn't my
checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line . It was
not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the
daily cash receipts to the bank . "



"I ask you to go with me . . . as I went the other day . . .
to a veteran's hospital and look those men . . .
with their mangled bodies . in the eye, and tell THEM
they didn't hold a job!



You go with me to the Space Program at NASA
and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans
of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee . . ..
and you look those kids in the eye and tell them
that their DADS didn't hold a job .



You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in
Arlington National Cemetery , where I have more friends
buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch
those waving flags .



You stand there, and you think about this nation,
and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job?

What about you?"


For those who don't remember .
During W . W . II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney
representing the Communist Party in the USA .

Now he's a Senator!


If you can read this, thank a teacher .
If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran .


It might not be a bad idea to keep this circulating



Garil D. Allerkamp, CW4 Retired



41yrs 8month

US Army
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7050|132 and Bush

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
to take the Branch Davidian compound .
That was a 51-day operation . .
Winning the war was easy, winning the peace has proven to be the tough part.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,993|7081|949

this should be in the Junk Drawer
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7112|USA
As far as comparing deaths from past wars to Iraq today, medical advancement has helped saved lives in this war. THere are more maimed than killed.

But we get the point. You support the war in Iraq and truly believe the Democrats and 'liberals' are losing the war for our troops.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,993|7081|949

Kmarion wrote:

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
to take the Branch Davidian compound .
That was a 51-day operation . .
Winning the war was easy, winning the peace has proven to be the tough part.
Last time I checked, the only thing we control is the "Green Zone", and we can't even stop bombings in there.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6945
One might aruge we never took Iraq, we simply toppled it.

When we took Berlin, the fighting ended. When we 'took' Baghdad, the fighting just began.
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7112|USA

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
to take the Branch Davidian compound .
That was a 51-day operation . .
Winning the war was easy, winning the peace has proven to be the tough part.
Last time I checked, the only thing we control is the "Green Zone", and we can't even stop bombings in there.
What about the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner on the aircraft carrier?
jonsimon
Member
+224|6945

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

this should be in the Junk Drawer
qfe
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7216|UK

Kmarion wrote:

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
to take the Branch Davidian compound .
That was a 51-day operation . .
Winning the war was easy, winning the peace has proven to be the tough part.
Exactly right. As far as im concerned the war is not over.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7050|132 and Bush

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
to take the Branch Davidian compound .
That was a 51-day operation . .
Winning the war was easy, winning the peace has proven to be the tough part.
Last time I checked, the only thing we control is the "Green Zone", and we can't even stop bombings in there.
I'm sure you knew I was speaking of ousting the previous government by traditional military means. Do you think if the Japanese started bombing themselves during WWII we would have politicians claiming the war is lost?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Winning the war was easy, winning the peace has proven to be the tough part.
Last time I checked, the only thing we control is the "Green Zone", and we can't even stop bombings in there.
What about the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner on the aircraft carrier?
Everyone knows, including you, that that banner was a statement implying toppling Saddam Hussein reign.

It is unfortunate that, that was not the end of it, I wish it had been.

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