BF2S Forums Unions !!!

Unions exist for a reason, but they just go too damn far nowadays.

But without them, under certain circumstances workers would be screwed big time.  They DO exist for a reason.

Kmarion wrote:

I was in a union for 13 years. Non union people only here about laziness and crime. What you don't see is how it protects workers from working unreasonable amounts of hours, provides good healthcare, good wages, and ensures that safety procedures are a priority. Companies are built on the backs of their employees. Putting all your faith in the good will of management isn't always a good idea. Even today.

Never mind EARNING good wages, that is why a frickin car costs so much ,because the unionized idiot that puts his bolt into his hole, has artificially had his value to the company risen to an unrealistic level by unions.

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

I was in a union for 13 years. Non union people only here about laziness and crime. What you don't see is how it protects workers from working unreasonable amounts of hours, provides good healthcare, good wages, and ensures that safety procedures are a priority. Companies are built on the backs of their employees. Putting all your faith in the good will of management isn't always a good idea. Even today.

Never mind EARNING good wages, that is why a frickin car costs so much ,because the unionized idiot that puts his bolt into his hole, has artificially had his value to the company risen to an unrealistic level by unions.

Really? I'm pretty sure the shipping cost between UPS (Union) and FEDEX (Non union) are competitive. Using your car analogy leaves allot to be explained when looking at how much more the rest of the world pays for their non-union built automobiles. Believe it or not there are plenty of people who bust their ass in unions. Many people are working there way through the company and have aspirations of management in the future. Unions do not decide who gets promoted. I worked for UPS. There were times I would have over 300 stops in one day with 500 packages. If you don't think that's pouring everything out into your work you are mistaken.

So is my argument not true. A unionized non-skilled worker, has not had his worth artifically risen? Funny how a non-English speaking Mexican can come here, illegally, and do your unionized job, and more than likely, work circles around you for a lot less money.

I also might add, I have worked in union shops before at the airlines as well, you are not going to tell me anything that will convince me unions are not corrupt, worthless and protect, well, only those that acutally need a union, so they don't get their lazy asses fired out of their position.

Last edited by lowing (2007-03-24 18:25:35)

A good company should have an "open door" policy so that unions are not needed. The thought of paying dues to have someone represent me, to speak for me makes me want to puke. Why should I have to pay a membership to go to work? Also, correct me if I am wrong because I may very well be, but isnt it true you could be on the job for 5, 10, even 20 years and someone walking in the door will start at the same rate of pay as you granted you do the same job? I think fiscal reward should factor in somehow if a person has been on the job loyaly for x amount of years. All of my friends who worked for unions  bragged about how protected they are, and then when they needed sick time, a temporary leave of absence, medical needs, etc. they got raked hardcore only to be laid off later. That unemployment check is great huh? It may just cover next years dues.

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Really? I'm pretty sure the shipping cost between UPS (Union) and FEDEX (Non union) are competitive. Using your car analogy leaves allot to be explained when looking at how much more the rest of the world pays for their non-union built automobiles. Believe it or not there are plenty of people who bust their ass in unions. Many people are working there way through the company and have aspirations of management in the future. Unions do not decide who gets promoted. I worked for UPS. There were times I would have over 300 stops in one day with 500 packages. If you don't think that's pouring everything out into your work you are mistaken.

So is my argument not true. A unionized non-skilled worker, has not had his worth artifically risen? Funny how a non-English speaking Mexican can come here, illegally, and do your unionized job, and more than likely, work circles around you for a lot less money.

Let's analyze "worth". How much is your health worth to you? Coming home from a 12 hour day and not being able to walk to the shower due to the muscle cramps in your legs, not being able to pick your kids up because you have been lifting packages all day, or in my case rupturing a disc and thus ending a career in which you had many years already invested. How much is that "worth" to you? Your argument takes you to exploiting migrant workers to justify what is right. There is a pyramid of skilled labor within the system that dictates the levels of pay also. These are negotiated and agreed to both by the company and the unions. A UPS package car driver makes much more than the person who sorts the packages.

I use migrant workers as an example not to endorse them, but to prove how UNvaluable the unionized non-skilled worker is.

I stand a chance of rupturing a disc as well, or how about getting sucked into a jet engine, or maybe being crushed by a moving flight control or a slamming thrust reverser door. I know my "worth" to my company and I am not to be kidded into thinking that I am far too valuable to be replaced. That is why I have taken responsibility for my finances and my future, in case it is needed.

Kmarion wrote:

Let's analyze "worth". How much is your health worth to you? Coming home from a 12 hour day and not being able to walk to the shower due to the muscle cramps in your legs, not being able to pick your kids up because you have been lifting packages all day, or in my case rupturing a disc and thus ending a career in which you had many years already invested. How much is that "worth" to you? Your argument takes you to exploiting migrant workers to justify what is right. There is a pyramid of skilled labor within the system that dictates the levels of pay also. These are negotiated and agreed to both by the company and the unions. A UPS package car driver makes much more than the person who sorts the packages.

K-man, I usually agree with you but I am unable to on this one. You, and only you have control of your worth. It is up to you to negotiate that. If I was working 12 hour days on a regular basis then that is my fault. You can always quit or take different avenues with perhaps a labor board. I  have paid my dues and have climbed the corporate ladder one step at a time and am fortunate now to have a job where I could negotiate my conditions upon hiring. I understand that there are blue collar, hard working folks who are not that fortunate but they still should be able to say what they want regarding their work conditions to their employers without fear of retalliation.

Pubic wrote:

I'm a card-carrying member of the Engineering, Printing and Manfacturing Union.  Fact is, without it I wouldn't be paid as much as I am and wouldn't have the same level of benefits/perks that I do, simply because work would just say "nope, you want to argue about it then fine, go talk to your expensive lawyer, if you don't like it then leave" REGARDLESS of how hard I work.

The key is, to make ourselves invaluable to our companies. If you have a job anyone can do well then, you ain't holding much of a hand. I have a job as an aircraft mechanic, I have a ton of experience but I am not arrogant enough to think that I can not be replaced because the streets are full of out of work aircraft mechanics most of which, are/were unionized. Just think what they could have done with that dues money if they were allowed to keep it before getting laid off

Kmarion wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

A good company should have an "open door" policy so that unions are not needed. The thought of paying dues to have someone represent me, to speak for me makes me want to puke. Why should I have to pay a membership to go to work? Also, correct me if I am wrong because I may very well be, but isnt it true you could be on the job for 5, 10, even 20 years and someone walking in the door will start at the same rate of pay as you granted you do the same job? I think fiscal reward should factor in somehow if a person has been on the job loyaly for x amount of years. All of my friends who worked for unions  bragged about how protected they are, and then when they needed sick time, a temporary leave of absence, medical needs, etc. they got raked hardcore only to be laid off later. That unemployment check is great huh? It may just cover next years dues.

You have it backwards. A union ensures that seniority is respected not only with pay but throughout everything else in the company. Most states are "right to work" also which means you do not have to join a union in order to be employed.

Not sure what your experience dictates to you but mine has been, seniority has got very little to do with productivity. Tell me why a company should be FORCED, at lay off time, to keep a slug and fire a hard worker based on seniority?

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

So is my argument not true. A unionized non-skilled worker, has not had his worth artifically risen? Funny how a non-English speaking Mexican can come here, illegally, and do your unionized job, and more than likely, work circles around you for a lot less money.

Let's analyze "worth". How much is your health worth to you? Coming home from a 12 hour day and not being able to walk to the shower due to the muscle cramps in your legs, not being able to pick your kids up because you have been lifting packages all day, or in my case rupturing a disc and thus ending a career in which you had many years already invested. How much is that "worth" to you? Your argument takes you to exploiting migrant workers to justify what is right. There is a pyramid of skilled labor within the system that dictates the levels of pay also. These are negotiated and agreed to both by the company and the unions. A UPS package car driver makes much more than the person who sorts the packages.

I use migrant workers as an example not to endorse them, but to prove how UNvaluable the unionized non-skilled worker is.

I stand a chance of rupturing a disc as well, or how about getting sucked into a jet engine, or maybe being crushed by a moving flight control or a slamming thrust reverser door. I know my "worth" to my company and I am not to be kidded into thinking that I am far too valuable to be replaced. That is why I have taken responsibility for my finances and my future, in case it is needed.

You are relying on the good faith of your employer. In large many large companies you get all types of management. Some are motivated purely by production and push their employees to the brink everyday. You shouldn't be forced to leave a job due to the fact you have new management taking advantage of hard working employees. A union is nothing more than a concentrated voice. Everything else is negotiated. BTW it's about a 7 year wait to become full time once you gain employment at UPS. The union can not just demand more jobs, they have to be aware of what the company can provide.

I had some of those foreign workers "jumping" for me during peak season. I had to drop them off after a few hours since they were about to throw up in the back of my truck. Don't be so naive to suggest you know my work level.

Edit:Freakin laptops

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-03-24 18:56:20)

psychotoxic187 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Really? I'm pretty sure the shipping cost between UPS (Union) and FEDEX (Non union) are competitive. Using your car analogy leaves allot to be explained when looking at how much more the rest of the world pays for their non-union built automobiles. Believe it or not there are plenty of people who bust their ass in unions. Many people are working there way through the company and have aspirations of management in the future. Unions do not decide who gets promoted. I worked for UPS. There were times I would have over 300 stops in one day with 500 packages. If you don't think that's pouring everything out into your work you are mistaken.

So is my argument not true. A unionized non-skilled worker, has not had his worth artifically risen? Funny how a non-English speaking Mexican can come here, illegally, and do your unionized job, and more than likely, work circles around you for a lot less money.

I also might add, I have worked in union shops before at the airlines as well, you are not going to tell me anything that will convince me unions are not corrupt, worthless and protect, well, only those that acutally need a union, so they don't get their lazy asses fired out of their position.

You have to learn the skill through apprenticeship.  In Wisconsin here, non-union sector is known for doing poor jobs, but they are cheaper. They hire anybody, and call them a skilled Journeyman. In the Union you have start out at the bottom, and work your way through your apprenticeship. I bust my ass, and take pride in what I do. I am currently working at a powerplant building the turbine, and sorry to tell you, if your lazy, and don't pull your own weight, you are run off the job. You also get the reputation for being a poor worker. I have worked both non-union, and union. I have seen equally lazy people in both sides.

I agree totally, but lets not forget I am addressing NON-skilled labor, which seems has you exempt from my argument. an aircraft cleaner, a baggage handler, etc..........

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

A good company should have an "open door" policy so that unions are not needed. The thought of paying dues to have someone represent me, to speak for me makes me want to puke. Why should I have to pay a membership to go to work? Also, correct me if I am wrong because I may very well be, but isnt it true you could be on the job for 5, 10, even 20 years and someone walking in the door will start at the same rate of pay as you granted you do the same job? I think fiscal reward should factor in somehow if a person has been on the job loyaly for x amount of years. All of my friends who worked for unions  bragged about how protected they are, and then when they needed sick time, a temporary leave of absence, medical needs, etc. they got raked hardcore only to be laid off later. That unemployment check is great huh? It may just cover next years dues.

You have it backwards. A union ensures that seniority is respected not only with pay but throughout everything else in the company. Most states are "right to work" also which means you do not have to join a union in order to be employed.

Not sure what your experience dictates to you but mine has been, seniority has got very little to do with productivity. Tell me why a company should be FORCED, at lay off time, to keep a slug and fire a hard worker based on seniority?

Slugs are dealt with in many different ways. Most notably their colleagues. The union does help to protect but don't think it's some kind of save all also. Many employees who do not perform are still fired regardless of their seniority. Management just has to make sure they document their failures rather than just getting rid of them. Employees are written up, given warnings, suspended, and terminated just like in every other company.

lowing wrote:

psychotoxic187 wrote:

lowing wrote:

So is my argument not true. A unionized non-skilled worker, has not had his worth artifically risen? Funny how a non-English speaking Mexican can come here, illegally, and do your unionized job, and more than likely, work circles around you for a lot less money.

I also might add, I have worked in union shops before at the airlines as well, you are not going to tell me anything that will convince me unions are not corrupt, worthless and protect, well, only those that acutally need a union, so they don't get their lazy asses fired out of their position.

You have to learn the skill through apprenticeship.  In Wisconsin here, non-union sector is known for doing poor jobs, but they are cheaper. They hire anybody, and call them a skilled Journeyman. In the Union you have start out at the bottom, and work your way through your apprenticeship. I bust my ass, and take pride in what I do. I am currently working at a powerplant building the turbine, and sorry to tell you, if your lazy, and don't pull your own weight, you are run off the job. You also get the reputation for being a poor worker. I have worked both non-union, and union. I have seen equally lazy people in both sides.

I agree totally, but lets not forget I am addressing NON-skilled labor, which seems has you exempt from my argument. an aircraft cleaner, a baggage handler, etc..........

You have a good point. I have never worked in that type of union. Unions have some bad, and good points. Just as the non-union do as well. But, you are correct it should not be forced upon people, this is a capitalist country.