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2007-12-31 06:27:37
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7086|USA

elstonieo wrote:

Theres allways the Anti-union its called SCUM BAG M*F* SLAVE Recruitment Agency
Yes, I know, how stupid for someone to actually WORK for a living, and EARN a paycheck when they could be in a union and enjoy the free ride on the backs of the ones building a company. Leeches.

More union benefits,

1. Theft.......................Enjoy the free shit you can steal from the company, get fired and then get your job back with back pay plus KEEP all you have stolen. You won't find a deal like that at any non-union shop.

2. Sleep...................... enjoy all of the cozy hiding spots to sleep, a company has to offer, also sleep tight because you know if fired you will make more money on your return to "work".

3. Stand around and not do shit................Yes, enjoy this nifty little benefit with your co-"workers". After all what is the company gunna do, FIRE ALL OF YOU??!! I think not. Hell, even if they did, so what, you deserve a week break from the strain of standing around for 6 out of the 8 hours a day. Come back in a week or two with back pay. Enjoy.

4. If you are a minority, lets not forget the added benefit of doing as little as you want. After all YOU have the union AND the threat of discrimination law suits in your favor.
2007-12-31 09:30:00
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6990
One cannot trust management one single solitary bit - their only allegiance is to the balance sheet and not to expendable employees. Unions are a necessary evil.
2007-12-31 10:11:42
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7086|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

One cannot trust management one single solitary bit - their only allegiance is to the balance sheet and not to expendable employees. Unions are a necessary evil.
Ahhhhhhhh yes, union leaders are not interested in profits, only the well being of its members right? Ocean front property for sale in Arizona to who ever buys that bullshit. It is no big secret that a company is in business to make money, and guess what, A union IS a business.

What makes them different is they make money off of the emotion and hate that they can generate between a company and its workforce. Kinda like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Hate and provocation is a big money making business. Where would those two be without it?
2007-12-31 10:11:46
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6926|Northern California
Me and the wife were watching the news last night talking about the writers union and asking how long it would last.  I got so pissed at the concept of their picketing and their absolute disdain for customers.

In the end, Unions SERVER THEMSELVES at the expense of the people they and their company serves..the customer.  They are pimped out in the name of "protect your labor rights" and all that BS when it's totally unneeded.  You pay them crazy money and it's for nothing.  If you think you aren't paid as much if you're not in a union, get rid of the WHOLE union and then see how pay is adjusted...it's adjusted to fair market value.

Take UPS and FEDEX.  Having been a FEDEX courier long ago in it's non-union environment, I had two UPS courier friends (unionized) and we compared notes.  Their rate of pay was $22 an hour and mine about $17.  But after paying their union, we were a wash.  however, he had to buy his own uniforms and I got mine free.  He and his fellow employees weren't happy..always dealing with union crap, complaining, doing the bare minimum, not having a say.  I enjoyed my experience thoroughly at my location, people were free to negotiate things themselves, fedex valued us as non-union and treated us like employees..as contributors..not pimped ho's using them for money.

I've worked as a tile/marble/granite setter and have shared construction sites with union workers...this is an even greater extreme of crappy, bare-minimum type quality from workers at the expense of customers and stressed out foremen and generals putting up with their lazy asses...but hey, they get to put their  proud "iron workers local blah blah blah" stickers on their trucks so they think they're somebody.

What's worse is, here in the PRK (peoples' republik of kalifornia), union workers who strike are protected from being fired!!  That's right.  So while these writers are striking, ALL their non-union friends and co-workers are getting fired because they get additional labor rights.  Last night on the news, I saw some people talking about having to move because they'll foreclose because their bread winner can't do his production work.

When BART (bay area light rail system) strikes, the San Francisco Bay Area becomes paralyzed.  Fares go up to cover part time train drivers, trains are late, employers all over suffer millions of dollars a day in loss because employees stay home rather than drive or ferry or take limited trains.  Just so the cry-baby unions can leverage their annual strike for a pay increase.  "But Ironchef, how else can I get a pay increase if I'm not union?"  Easily, I get annual pay increases of 3% to 5% by talking with my boss at raise time in June... I do likewise in November for my christmas merit bonus!  Imagine that!  The pee-on employee who's not in a union can actually talk directly to their employer and not face being fired or raped!!  lol


UNIONS = FTL.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2007-12-31 10:14:16)

2007-12-31 10:33:14
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6990

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

One cannot trust management one single solitary bit - their only allegiance is to the balance sheet and not to expendable employees. Unions are a necessary evil.
Ahhhhhhhh yes, union leaders are not interested in profits, only the well being of its members right? Ocean front property for sale in Arizona to who ever buys that bullshit. It is no big secret that a company is in business to make money, and guess what, A union IS a business.

What makes them different is they make money off of the emotion and hate that they can generate between a company and its workforce. Kinda like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Hate and provocation is a big money making business. Where would those two be without it?
Necessary evil. Corruption festers in everything humans touch - from the management of a business to the workings of a union. Necessary evil. The union I'm a member of have a very workmanlike and pragmatic relationship with management.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-31 10:34:05)

2007-12-31 14:14:40
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7086|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

One cannot trust management one single solitary bit - their only allegiance is to the balance sheet and not to expendable employees. Unions are a necessary evil.
Ahhhhhhhh yes, union leaders are not interested in profits, only the well being of its members right? Ocean front property for sale in Arizona to who ever buys that bullshit. It is no big secret that a company is in business to make money, and guess what, A union IS a business.

What makes them different is they make money off of the emotion and hate that they can generate between a company and its workforce. Kinda like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Hate and provocation is a big money making business. Where would those two be without it?
Necessary evil. Corruption festers in everything humans touch - from the management of a business to the workings of a union. Necessary evil. The union I'm a member of have a very workmanlike and pragmatic relationship with management.
I see, so the deviant tactics used by the union to collect money from people that think unions are on their side, is BETTER than a company coming right out and saying they are in business to make money. I completely understand now.

The "necessary evil" is, it is necessary for the union to pin a company AGAINST its employers for the union to profit.


If your relationship is so great between your employer and the work force, you don't need a union do ya?
2007-12-31 14:18:26
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6990

lowing wrote:

I see, so the deviant tactics used by the union to collect money from people that think unions are on their side, is BETTER than a company coming right out and saying they are in business to make money. I completely understand now.

The "necessary evil" is, it is necessary for the union to pin a company AGAINST its employers for the union to profit.


If your relationship is so great between your employer and the work force, you don't need a union do ya?
lowing. Union representatives are VOTED in on an annual basis where I work. It would be patently obvious if they were acting purely out of self-interest and an extraordinary meeting would be called to oust them from their position. An unrivalled employer will readily abuse employees to the point of slavery if allowed to do so, as with most things in life an entity has to exist to balance 'the force'. The relationship with my employer would be a lot worse without our union because our employer would be raping us left, right and centre.

Balance is necessary in anything be it politics, employment, whatever. Leaving something freely to its own devices leads to dictatorships, monopolies, exploitation, etc. There must be ying and yang...

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-31 14:19:59)

2007-12-31 14:26:18
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7086|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I see, so the deviant tactics used by the union to collect money from people that think unions are on their side, is BETTER than a company coming right out and saying they are in business to make money. I completely understand now.

The "necessary evil" is, it is necessary for the union to pin a company AGAINST its employers for the union to profit.


If your relationship is so great between your employer and the work force, you don't need a union do ya?
lowing. Union representatives are VOTED in on an annual basis where I work. It would be patently obvious if they were acting purely out of self-interest and an extraordinary meeting would be called to oust them from their position. An unrivalled employer will readily abuse employees to the point of slavery if allowed to do so, as with most things in life an entity has to exist to balance 'the force'. The relationship with my employer would be a lot worse without our union because our employer would be raping us left, right and centre.

Balance is necessary in anything be it politics, employment, whatever. Leaving something freely to its own devices leads to dictatorships, monopolies, exploitation, etc. There must be ying and yang...
If you are telling me that your company would instantly turn to slavery and abuse of its employees if your union left, then your union has done everything I said a union does, or, you work for a shitty company, if the only thing keeping them from abuse and eating your young is a union.

Which is it?

What kinda money does your union leadership make? Any wild guesses?
2007-12-31 14:27:48
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7086|USA

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I see, so the deviant tactics used by the union to collect money from people that think unions are on their side, is BETTER than a company coming right out and saying they are in business to make money. I completely understand now.

The "necessary evil" is, it is necessary for the union to pin a company AGAINST its employers for the union to profit.


If your relationship is so great between your employer and the work force, you don't need a union do ya?
lowing. Union representatives are VOTED in on an annual basis where I work. It would be patently obvious if they were acting purely out of self-interest and an extraordinary meeting would be called to oust them from their position. An unrivalled employer will readily abuse employees to the point of slavery if allowed to do so, as with most things in life an entity has to exist to balance 'the force'. The relationship with my employer would be a lot worse without our union because our employer would be raping us left, right and centre.

Balance is necessary in anything be it politics, employment, whatever. Leaving something freely to its own devices leads to dictatorships, monopolies, exploitation, etc. There must be ying and yang...
If you are telling me that your company would instantly turn to slavery and abuse of its employees if your union left, then your union has done everything I said a union does, or, you work for a shitty company, if the only thing keeping them from abuse and eating your young is a union.

Which is it?

What kinda money does your union leadership make? Any wild guesses?
Here in the states there are several terrific companies to work for that are non-union from what I gather, these employees are even allowed to own their own homes and not live on the plantation.
2007-12-31 15:30:30
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6928|Connecticut

CameronPoe wrote:

One cannot trust management one single solitary bit - their only allegiance is to the balance sheet and not to expendable employees. Unions are a necessary evil.
As much as I hate to say it....Wal-Mart.

You sir are wrong. I have, and will never, work in a Union. Every company I am employed at is succesful in its own industry. A good leader will employ good management that knows the difference between unnecessary bitching and solid ideas for improvement that could help a company adapt to the changes. You are right, a corporation or business will ALWAYS do whats best for their bottom line however, it up to you to recognize whether it is a company where your talent can be utilized and there is opportunity for growth and advancement. If not then leave. If you are not marketable then become marketable. If you can't then you are probably one of the employee's who bithces unneccesarily.
Malloy must go
2007-12-31 16:09:25
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6658|Brisneyland

lowing wrote:

More union benefits,

1. Theft.......................Enjoy the free shit you can steal from the company, get fired and then get your job back with back pay plus KEEP all you have stolen. You won't find a deal like that at any non-union shop.

2. Sleep...................... enjoy all of the cozy hiding spots to sleep, a company has to offer, also sleep tight because you know if fired you will make more money on your return to "work".

3. Stand around and not do shit................Yes, enjoy this nifty little benefit with your co-"workers". After all what is the company gunna do, FIRE ALL OF YOU??!! I think not. Hell, even if they did, so what, you deserve a week break from the strain of standing around for 6 out of the 8 hours a day. Come back in a week or two with back pay. Enjoy.

4. If you are a minority, lets not forget the added benefit of doing as little as you want. After all YOU have the union AND the threat of discrimination law suits in your favor.
You have picked extremely ridiculous examples here. Maybe these happen, but only rarely.

Also some guys say that they can get pay rises based on their own merit. Thats great , however its totally at the discretion of the boss. Nice boss, you have a chance. Dickhead boss , good luck , no pay rise this year, try again next year. Unions give you a chance. Want a wage that increases at the same rate as inflation, a union may give you a better chance.

Seems that its mainly Americans that have a problem with unions here. Perhaps your unions really suck, still I would rather have them than not.
2007-12-31 17:21:25
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7086|USA

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

lowing wrote:

More union benefits,

1. Theft.......................Enjoy the free shit you can steal from the company, get fired and then get your job back with back pay plus KEEP all you have stolen. You won't find a deal like that at any non-union shop.

2. Sleep...................... enjoy all of the cozy hiding spots to sleep, a company has to offer, also sleep tight because you know if fired you will make more money on your return to "work".

3. Stand around and not do shit................Yes, enjoy this nifty little benefit with your co-"workers". After all what is the company gunna do, FIRE ALL OF YOU??!! I think not. Hell, even if they did, so what, you deserve a week break from the strain of standing around for 6 out of the 8 hours a day. Come back in a week or two with back pay. Enjoy.

4. If you are a minority, lets not forget the added benefit of doing as little as you want. After all YOU have the union AND the threat of discrimination law suits in your favor.
You have picked extremely ridiculous examples here. Maybe these happen, but only rarely.

Also some guys say that they can get pay rises based on their own merit. Thats great , however its totally at the discretion of the boss. Nice boss, you have a chance. Dickhead boss , good luck , no pay rise this year, try again next year. Unions give you a chance. Want a wage that increases at the same rate as inflation, a union may give you a better chance.

Seems that its mainly Americans that have a problem with unions here. Perhaps your unions really suck, still I would rather have them than not.
Rare circumstances huh, obviously you have never worked at an airline, or been in the work force for any real length of time. I will also add that allllllllll the union dues paid at the majority of the nations airlines did NOTHING to protect the coveted contracts or salaries or insurance or retirement or even jobs for any of the employees at those airlines.


If an  employee could have been able to invest their dues money into personal accounts instead of give it to a union they would have been better off now wouldn't they, given they lost everything anyway, INCLUDING their dues.
2007-12-31 17:37:24
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6658|Brisneyland
For a start I have been working for 19 years so I know what I am talking about.
Secondly what case are you talking about re- airlines. You arent being specific. Sounds like the company went under, not much a union can do about that, although I am sure you blame them for it. Union fees dont usually cost much per year and where I come from they are tax deductible, so its not much of a slug to your wages.

For the record I dont belong to a union. I could but choose not to, as I work on a yearly contract basis. Not much the union can do for me if my work decides not to renew my contract. Still they are important in protecting workers rights and dont deserve to be villified.
2007-12-31 20:16:55
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7086|USA

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

For a start I have been working for 19 years so I know what I am talking about.
Secondly what case are you talking about re- airlines. You arent being specific. Sounds like the company went under, not much a union can do about that, although I am sure you blame them for it. Union fees dont usually cost much per year and where I come from they are tax deductible, so its not much of a slug to your wages.

For the record I dont belong to a union. I could but choose not to, as I work on a yearly contract basis. Not much the union can do for me if my work decides not to renew my contract. Still they are important in protecting workers rights and dont deserve to be villified.
Oh you need specific airlines huh, ok, Northwest, United, American. These companies are heavily unionized and are still in operation, but at  drastically reduced benefits packages to its 'contractual" employees. Those that still have jobs that is. Go union.
2007-12-31 20:19:32
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7110|Canberra, AUS

lowing wrote:

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

For a start I have been working for 19 years so I know what I am talking about.
Secondly what case are you talking about re- airlines. You arent being specific. Sounds like the company went under, not much a union can do about that, although I am sure you blame them for it. Union fees dont usually cost much per year and where I come from they are tax deductible, so its not much of a slug to your wages.

For the record I dont belong to a union. I could but choose not to, as I work on a yearly contract basis. Not much the union can do for me if my work decides not to renew my contract. Still they are important in protecting workers rights and dont deserve to be villified.
Oh you need specific airlines huh, ok, Northwest, United, American. These companies are heavily unionized and are still in operation, but at  drastically reduced benefits packages to its 'contractual" employees. Those that still have jobs that is. Go union.
Lowing, there are good unions and bad unions.

The bad unions are B-A-D. The good ones are the ones that burwhale and cam are describing.

A small part of the job of the unions is to give the employee more leverage from which to bargain. You asked earlier why one needs a union if the employee-employer relationship is good. The fact is that the employer, when deciding contractual arrangements, has far, far, far more power and leverage than a single person. If the union comes in to play, though, the balance is redressed.

This isn't to say all unions are good. There are some absolute shockers out there.

Last edited by Spark (2007-12-31 20:21:32)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2007-12-31 20:26:44
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7110|Canberra, AUS

Sgt._Eraser74 wrote:

lowing wrote:

elstonieo wrote:

Theres allways the Anti-union its called SCUM BAG M*F* SLAVE Recruitment Agency
Yes, I know, how stupid for someone to actually WORK for a living, and EARN a paycheck when they could be in a union and enjoy the free ride on the backs of the ones building a company. Leeches.

More union benefits,

1. Theft.......................Enjoy the free shit you can steal from the company, get fired and then get your job back with back pay plus KEEP all you have stolen. You won't find a deal like that at any non-union shop.

2. Sleep...................... enjoy all of the cozy hiding spots to sleep, a company has to offer, also sleep tight because you know if fired you will make more money on your return to "work".

3. Stand around and not do shit................Yes, enjoy this nifty little benefit with your co-"workers". After all what is the company gunna do, FIRE ALL OF YOU??!! I think not. Hell, even if they did, so what, you deserve a week break from the strain of standing around for 6 out of the 8 hours a day. Come back in a week or two with back pay. Enjoy.

4. If you are a minority, lets not forget the added benefit of doing as little as you want. After all YOU have the union AND the threat of discrimination law suits in your favor.
+1 for the post & I maty add that one of the main things unions do besides being a useless weekly deduction from a paycheck is protecting the assholes that abuse the system.
...and you know this, how?

Personal experience?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2007-12-31 20:28:44
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6658|Brisneyland
Spark has pretty much nailed it lowing. I dont think theres anything I could say to change your mind on this, so i wont bother. I am happy to give examples of times when unions do good work ( like in the example earlier where I showed that the ACTU in Australia fought to get "James Hardie" to pay asbestos victims compensation ) but I dont think it would do any good.
2007-12-31 22:35:04
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7110|Canberra, AUS
Yeah, that's why some unions are singularly fail.

They can be incredibly aggressive sometimes.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2007-12-31 22:47:43
SharkyMcshark
I'll take two
+132|7220|Perth, Western Australia
So we have "Trade unionz = teh bad commies bastads!" vs "viva la revolution".

Im siding with Cam here. Necessary evil. Evil, but needed to protect the workers.

At the end of the day the negatives of people skiving off and fudging numbers due to unionism are far less than the evils represented by workers being exploited by their employer.
2007-12-31 23:13:37
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7110|Canberra, AUS
BTW member title (WE'RE COMING BACK) comes from a heavy government campaign against unions and the "union-boss"-filled ALP during the recent elections.

As you've gathered, it didn't cut much ice with the public.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2008-01-01 01:53:25
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6658|Brisneyland

lowing wrote:

Oh you need specific airlines huh, ok, Northwest, United, American. These companies are heavily unionized and are still in operation, but at  drastically reduced benefits packages to its 'contractual" employees. Those that still have jobs that is. Go union.
Unions dont fight for the rights of workers eh?? A quick look at "The Australian" newspaper finds unions that are:

1 Trying to seek assurances that airline bosses keep their members employed

2 Trying to ensure the safety of their members as Qantas downsizing had caused more injuries in the baggage handling area

3 Unions try to help women that are coming back from maternity leave get the contract that Qantas agreed on before they left. Qantas reneged on their contract when they returned.

All the while Qantas is getting record profits (Lowing, notice I picked one of your beloved airlines as an example here)

So here are 3 examples of unions doing the right thing by their workers. Not one of these cases was a wage case. They were all fighting for the rights of the worker ie. Job security, worker safety, worker entitlements that the company was trying to remove.

This was a quick search, but there would be many more. I am sure its all just a plot by the unions to further some sort of criminal activity but they seem to be doing a pretty good job of disguising it as standing up for their members rights.
2008-01-01 02:36:41
Nappy
Apprentice
+151|6664|NSW, Australia

ONIONS!!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Onions.jpg






im not in a union

Last edited by Nappy (2008-01-01 02:37:13)

2008-01-01 05:34:08
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7086|USA

Burwhale the Avenger wrote:

lowing wrote:

Oh you need specific airlines huh, ok, Northwest, United, American. These companies are heavily unionized and are still in operation, but at  drastically reduced benefits packages to its 'contractual" employees. Those that still have jobs that is. Go union.
Unions dont fight for the rights of workers eh?? A quick look at "The Australian" newspaper finds unions that are:

1 Trying to seek assurances that airline bosses keep their members employed

2 Trying to ensure the safety of their members as Qantas downsizing had caused more injuries in the baggage handling area

3 Unions try to help women that are coming back from maternity leave get the contract that Qantas agreed on before they left. Qantas reneged on their contract when they returned.

All the while Qantas is getting record profits (Lowing, notice I picked one of your beloved airlines as an example here)

So here are 3 examples of unions doing the right thing by their workers. Not one of these cases was a wage case. They were all fighting for the rights of the worker ie. Job security, worker safety, worker entitlements that the company was trying to remove.

This was a quick search, but there would be many more. I am sure its all just a plot by the unions to further some sort of criminal activity but they seem to be doing a pretty good job of disguising it as standing up for their members rights.
1. No shit, any smart union would of course go to bat to keep THEIR meal tickets employed, if Quantas cuts employees, union dues is also cut, can't have that. Make no mistake that if the union and the company reach some sort of agreement, where the union income is not affected by any changes, the union would pass off such a deal to the membership as a fought and won scenario for the employess, regardless of how many jobs were lost.

2. The union is using this as nothing morethan a bargaining chip for something bigger, blackmail if you will. YOu are actually going to post an example that employees have to work HARD now for a paycheck, instead of just showing up. This kind of bullshit happens all day long at the airlines. The biggest lever a union has against the company is to make EVERY issue a SAFTY issue. So a team losses 1 worker and all of sudden everyone winds up in the emergency room, typical union tactic here as well.

3. So the union is going to fight for a womens right to NOT work and still get paid?! Ever thought the a company is not running a daycare, or a social services clinic? It is running a business, a business to make money. If you were a business owner. These women are not the only women in the world to have kids, so you are a working parent, join the fuckin' club. They honestly think they deserve special treatment or speacial conciderations or special work rules because they now have kids?? Why SHOULD a company give a shit about YOUR babysitting needs? This is their problem, not the companies.


Union=liberals=passing personal responsibility on someone else.

Not sure where the "one of my beloved airlines" thing came from, I never mentioned Quantas nor have I ever worked for them.
2008-01-01 05:49:13
TeamZephyr
Maintaining My Rage Since 1975
+124|6964|Hillside, Melbourne, Australia
I'd get involved here but it would be kind of useless.

But Lowing I will say one thing. You're sounding like those paranoid delusional Area 51 hippies trying to make everything the union does sound like a friggin conspiracy to keep them in power.

Hes the fact, People pay unions to represent them=Unions representing them.

Last edited by TeamZephyr (2008-01-01 05:51:28)

2008-01-01 06:30:19
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6990

lowing wrote:

Here in the states there are several terrific companies to work for that are non-union from what I gather, these employees are even allowed to own their own homes and not live on the plantation.
http://killercoke.org/crimes.htm

Charming.

If it wasn't for unions children would still be put to work in mines for tuppence an hour for 80 hours a week like in all those backwardass countries where there are no unions (like Bangladesh).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-01-01 06:36:28)

 

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