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2007-04-18 21:16:13
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|7020|Portland, OR, USA

chittydog wrote:

Superglueman wrote:

Those with a righteous heart will go to heaven, those with a self righteous heart will not
False. If that were true, God himself would not be there. If the way you conduct your life is irrelevant and the only way in is to kiss his ass, then I see overwhelming proof that God himself is not righeous, only self-righteous.

I want no part of a system that works this way.


Holy shit.  I've been trying to say that forever but it never makes sense!!  The best word I could find was arrogant...

well done, +1
2007-04-18 21:23:36
[1stSSF]=Nuka=
Banned
+23|7200|PDX Metro Area, OR, US, SOL
For the believers, you need to read 1st Timothy 1:12-17:
I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.

    13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

    14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

    15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners— of whom I am the worst.

    16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

    17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
If you presume anything but your own failing and misery, you are presuming WRONGLY. Christ hung out with the worst of the worst instead of fawning over the "righteous." Guess what? Christ didn't make a mistake...
2007-04-18 21:31:01
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|7122|Colorado
The born again Christians would tell you he's going to hell because he didn't accept Jesus into his heart & life.

GOD: Hey thanks for saving all those kids but you didn't accept my son into your heart, off to HELL with you!

Professor : OH NOES!
https://www.religion-cults.com/Eastern/Hinduism/hell-11g.jpg
Just doesn't sound rational does it.
2007-04-18 21:35:37
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|7020|Portland, OR, USA

TrollmeaT wrote:

The born again Christians would tell you he's going to hell because he didn't accept Jesus into his heart & life.

GOD: Hey thanks for saving all those kids but you didn't accept my son into your heart, off to HELL with you!

Professor : OH NOES!
http://www.religion-cults.com/Eastern/H … ll-11g.jpg
Just doesn't sound rational does it.
I'd rather burn in hell than believe in a heartless god who tossed his people into torture forever because they did not "believe in him."  How arrogant can one be? ffs..
2007-04-18 21:35:37
Velker
Accused aimbot user
+31|6724|Ohio
What the professor did was truly heroic and honorable. We can only guess the number of lives he saved by sacrificing his own. As great a deed as that was, however, good deeds are not what allow you to receive salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us what has saved us. "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith---and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---9 not by works, so that no one can boast." While the act of the professor was selfless and noble if he truly did not share in the faith of the redemptive power of Christ then he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 10:9-10---"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."No one except God can know of the eternal destiny of this man so it is not our place to judge where he is now. Perhaps he found Christ in the end, but if not then he will not receive salvation.
2007-04-18 21:43:21
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7031|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Stingray24 wrote:

John 14:6 sums it up for me.  Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
and your God sounds like a fucking bureaucrat.  If heaven is packed full of douche bags who are there just because they know the secret handshake, count me the fuck out.
2007-04-18 21:45:41
Ender2309
has joined the GOP
+470|7021|USA

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

John 14:6 sums it up for me.  Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I've met believers that were further from the message that Jesus put out than those who don't partake of a particular religion.  Think about what Superglueman wrote, and then about what you just said.

I'll take the honest, decent, caring, hard working people over those of self righteous self indignation any day.  If there really is a heaven and hell, then bring on the flames, because I would rather associate with those honest, decent people than live in some phony paradise run some by some indignant god that would sooner take the parasites of the world that believed in Jesus over those that actually practiced his word.
only thing is, to be a practical christian these days means redefining what we believe to be truths. the way i read this verse is this:

it doesn't who you are or what you do, Jesus makes the final decision, be it based on your belief or your deeds (if you were unable to find Jesus).
2007-04-18 21:53:29
Velker
Accused aimbot user
+31|6724|Ohio

Reciprocity wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

John 14:6 sums it up for me.  Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
and your God sounds like a fucking bureaucrat.  If heaven is packed full of douche bags who are there just because they know the secret handshake, count me the fuck out.
It isn't like that at all man. I'm not saying that out of my own opinion but right out of the Bible. In 2 Peter 3:9 it lets us know that God doesn't want anyone to be left out of the plan of salvation. He wants everyone to come to be with Him. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Unfortunately, there are some Christians that do keep silent about salvation. They don't tell their friends about the love of God and His desire to set them free from the effects of sin. When that happens, it almost does become a "secret hand shake" deal. I assure you, these kind of people are not real Christians. Anyone who truly has the love of Christ in their hearts will want to tell people about it, and not just a select few, but everyone. Salvation wasn't meant to be exclusive, it was accomplished by the work of Christ for all. All are welcomed to partake in salvation and enter heaven someday if they will acknowledge Christ as their Lord and Savior and turn away from their sins.
2007-04-18 22:17:56
Reciprocity
Member
+721|7031|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Velker wrote:

All are welcomed to partake in salvation and enter heaven someday if they will acknowledge Christ as their Lord and Savior and turn away from their sins.
you are still saying that Liviu Librescu, a man who deserves the upmost respect and admiration for the ultimate sacrifice he chose to make, will go to hell because as a Jew, he did not acknowledge Christ as his lord and savior.  I'm sorry, but I can never agree with that, If there's a heaven he damn well belongs there, no matter which Messiah he acknowledged.
2007-04-18 22:23:13
Smitty5613
Member
+46|6976|Middle of nowhere, California

Reciprocity wrote:

Velker wrote:

All are welcomed to partake in salvation and enter heaven someday if they will acknowledge Christ as their Lord and Savior and turn away from their sins.
you are still saying that Liviu Librescu, a man who deserves the upmost respect and admiration for the ultimate sacrifice he chose to make, will go to hell because as a Jew, he did not acknowledge Christ as his lord and savior.  I'm sorry, but I can never agree with that, If there's a heaven he damn well belongs there, no matter which Messiah he acknowledged.
He may be, or not.. Jesus is a part of got ( Father, Son, Holy Ghost), so if he believed in God and asked him into his heart, then he is prolly up their right now.....
2007-04-18 22:28:53
elstonieo
Oil 4 Euros not $$$
+20|6788|EsSeX

topthrill05 wrote:

If I was born in a Muslim family I would most likely be Muslim and vise versa. That is something we have no control over and I would imagine that god understands that.
not many people seem to understand that ^^^ 

I watched a good program a long time ago that had a lot of different religions being talked about

Religions are like the spokes of a wheel all heading towards the same spiritual centre
but to answer the original post
Does the fact that he is not a Christian prevent him from entering into the kingdom of heaven?
thats for God (his yours mine anyones) to decide not me, you or anyone else
2007-04-18 22:45:26
twiistaaa
Member
+87|7118|mexico
he probably would get in, i mean he saved the lives of other christians (im assuming some of them would of been).

open and shut case i rekon.
2007-04-18 23:02:46
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7166
I believe in God and if the Israeli teacher has a problem getting into Heaven i will give him my place in line...
religion is about love and forgiveness... as much as i wish i could make the shooter suffer like he has made so many people suffer... I forgive him and pray for him and his family...  My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the family and friends of the students who were injured or killed...   This tragedy gives perspective to my small problems...  I pray for everyone to find peace in there hearts and minds...
Love is the answer
2007-04-18 23:10:18
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7065|do not disturb

Baptism is an act of obediance. Are you saying that if you were to witness to everyone next to you on an airplane going to crash, they can't be saved? Works do not save us. This is like when the Jewish elders argued in the early church that you needed to be circumsised. God circumsies the heart, so again, a work, or circumcising yourself, won't save you.

If he was not born again, he will go to hell. Read at the end of Isiah, "our righteousness is like filthy rags." Even if we do commit righteous things, it can't save us. Should God overlook all our sins because we do noble things sometimes? There are two ways you can enter heaven. You can not break the Ten Commandments (not sin), or accept Jesus' payment of sins. Anyone here kept the Ten Commandments?

People don't go to hell because they don't know God, it's because they have sinned against him. And since sin is imperfection, even one sin is one too many. And it's not a petty issue. God sees lust as adultery (Matt 5:28) and hate as murder 1 John 3:15). Nope, sins are pretty serious in God's eyes. It is why people need to understand the seriousness of their sins. Without Christ you are doomed. The outer darkness is a terrible place.

topal63, God did not create evil. He created law, and it is righteous and perfect. But the concept of evil is transgression, or breaking of the law. It never existed until it was committed. So God is not responsible for evil. Did God give the angles in heaven natures that were pleasing and also displeasing to God? I can't remember reading anything giving much detail about this, so I don't know.

topthrill05 wrote:

If I was born in a Muslim family I would most likely be Muslim and vise versa. That is something we have no control over and I would imagine that god understands that.
God said they have no excuse. He'll look over their idolatry because it was out of ignorance, but like I said, you don't go to hell for not knowing God, you go their for sinning.

topal63 wrote:

Why wouldn't everyone go to heaven - period? Everyone! Including satan, Hitler, etc, the Virgina-Tech shooter, simply everyone - regardless of any evil (any level of evil) committed in a incredibly short temporary life subject to the limitations of the human mind? Were talking about eternal punishment vs a moment in time done and gone.
Satan can't be saved, nor his demons. Hell was made for them. All sins can be forgiven. The only sin God won't forgive is the person who won't accept Christ and harden their heart to the point they won't repent, ever. That is grossly offensive to God. If you can repent, do it now.

Stingray24 wrote:

The way some Christians treat people is terrible, Agent.  I do my best, but I’m certainly no saint.  I’m truly sorry if the only Christians you’ve encountered are the self-righteous mean variety.  The Bible describes Jesus’ confrontations with the self-righteous Pharisees and His contempt for their attitude.  No one has a right to look down their nose at anyone because salvation isn’t about being better, it’s about being forgiven.  We’re all on the same level in the human race.  As the verse says, “God so loved the world . . .”.  Those who are self-righteous forget there’s absolutely nothing any of us can do to be good enough.
God says the proud are an abomination in his sight and that he resists them. He exalts the humble, and humbles the exalted.

I believe hell is also less severe for people who do not know God. I'll try to find the scripture that I'm thinking of to support it, or it may mean an entirely different thing. Anyways, God bless. I pray that everyone of those who died repented and put their faith in Christ. So I can't assume any of them went to Hell, even though most people do, even self-proclaimed Christians. That's up to God.
2007-04-19 00:51:14
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|7150
Thus far Catbox is the only Christian I've seen in this thread who I am not actually ashamed to call a fellow human being. The rest of you, well, I would call you ignorant, but ignorance isn't the right word. Misguided, perhaps. You speak of salvation like you have a personal hotline with God, and you can simply call him up at any time and ask him questions about who He lets into heaven and who He condemns to eternal damnation. You treat the bible like it is that absolute truth, when, in fact, the bible was written by men. Men (and women) are, by the very defining characteristics of your religion, imperfect, and, as such, any work written by them should not be treated as either perfect or absolute.

I told a friend of mine about this thread today, a private practice psychologist. I told him that people were debating whether or not a Jewish professor, who gave his own life to save the lives of others, would get into heaven or not, and that the resounding answer from christians was "no", for the simple reason that he was not Christian. It made him sadder than I have seen him in quite some time, and, to be honest, I am equally dismayed. If God appointed one of you to choose who went to heaven and who went to hell, no doubt you would assign peoples' fates based on your cookie cutter version of morality: namely, that being a good christian is more important than being a good person.

This goes beyond the issue of this one Jewish professor. Billions of men and women have lived and died on this Earth without ever having the chance to convert to Christianity. Are they burning in hell at this very moment for their lack of faith? Do you honestly believe that God's judgement is so black and white? How can you even presume to know what He thinks? Christians that blather on about who is getting into Heaven and who isn't strike me as among the most arrogant people walking this Earth, for the simple reason that they are willing to pass moral judgement on people who, save for a faith in God, are no different from them. Not just that, they pass judgement via their God. Last time I checked, he was the boss, not you. The Christians I have met who have actually made me want to convert are the ones who accept that they don't know what will happen to them after death because they accept that the nature of God is beyond their understanding, but, because they don't know, they realize only thing they can do is continue being a good and loving person and keep their faith. I have never seen one of these people tell anyone who is going to hell and who isn't.

My message is simple: whether you believe in God or not, be a good person. Respect those around you, not because some supernatural father-figure in the sky tells you to do so, but because it's the right thing to do. To the Christians, keep your judgement to yourself. For all we know, you are right and I and all the rest of the unbelievers will burn in eternal torment for our lack of faith, but that is not for you to decide or even to discuss. I will accept God's judgement if indeed he exists, but I will not accept yours, and the very fact that you are willing to render judgement upon me and everyone else who does not believe in your God speaks ill of your character as a human being.

I haven't posted on this forum in quite some time, but the level of intolerance I've seen from the very people who pride themselves on tolerance and forgiveness compelled me to respond. If I believed in God, I would pray that none of you are ever placed in a position of moral or spiritual judgement over your fellow men. To those that do not share the viewpoint I have just condemned, I apologize for my words. They are not meant to be an attack on Christianity or Christians in general, but as a reminder that being a Christian does not make you better than a non-Christian. It just makes you Christian, and, as others have already said, if being Christian is the sole defining trait that earns eternal salvation, I want no part of it.

I hear hell has all the good musicians anyway.
2007-04-19 01:12:04
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7260|Nårvei

Very good Skruples !

I`m actually a Christian but the more relaxed kind, i`ve read the bible more than once but the history and teachings of the bible is in imho just a book !

I live by a set of standards passed on to me by my parents witch have very much the same views as me on the bible, be good to yourself and others and like Crowe said in Gladiator fits me very good:

What we do in life, echoes in eternity !

I like to think that when judgement day comes those that where true to themselves and lived to the best of their abilities goes to heaven - doesn`t matter what religion or what book you read, after all it`s pretty much the same God we all pray to, different prophets perhaps but the same God !

Might sound hypocritical for a Christian to say these words and to shock you even more i don't even go to church much, i don`t believe i have to do just that to fulfill my Christian duties - i further don`t believe that the priesthood as it functions was God intention, they mock each other and their community in such a way i discard them as a profession directly linked with God - before God we are all equal and that goes for all not just the few !

So i believe my believes are enough to get me salvation and others must search himself for their believes, i judge nobody based on religion or the lack of such !

Have a beautiful day
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2007-04-19 01:14:11
mcminty
Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.
+879|7171|Sydney, Australia
Awesome post Skruples!


I feel compelled to jump in here, but in reference to a scientific idea.

You christians are talking about 'The Kindom of Heaven', like yours is 'the correct one'. The scientific idea I want to introduce is one from Einstein, frames of reference.

According to your beliefs, the jewish professor will not go to "the kingdom of heaven" because his set of beliefs are different to yours. On the flipside, in his frame of reference, he himself will be going to heaven while you will not.

It is ignorant to think that because someone doesn't believe in your god that they will not have salvation/ go to hell. How can they? They aren't in your religous frame of reference!


To highlight that ignorance, I'll look no further than the RE teacher at my school. I had to sit through four years of her bullshit. An example that she gave my brothers class is - a 'born again christian' on death row (for say mass murder) will go to 'heaven' over people like Mahatma Gandhi (who bought about global changes in civil rights). God will overlook the fact that Ghandi has helped the world, just because he wasn't baptised.



Mcminty.
2007-04-19 01:33:35
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|7131|Disaster Free Zone
Altho I am not a believer, as I see it. The only way to heaven is to believe in Jesus.

Basically, the professor could have lived a completely sinless life, but if he doesn't believe in Jesus he can't go to heaven. On the other hand the guy who killed the 30 people could go to heaven if he believed in Jesus.

Unlike humans God does not rate sin as lesser or greater the any other, all sin, no matter how great or small are treated equally, yet God only asks that you believe in him and ask for forgiveness for your sins. You never have to attend church, you never have to live a sinless life (its impossible anyway), you never have to preach your beliefs, you don't have to do jack shit as long as you believe in Jesus and ask for his forgiveness.
2007-04-19 02:59:21
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|7000|CH/BR - in UK

What if you're in this situation: I wish I could believe in him, but I can't, simply because my reason tells me it can't be true?
Always wondered that...

-konfusion
2007-04-19 07:22:42
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|7076|Sea to globally-cooled sea
I’m glad that we are talking so maturely about this topic.

I, too, am saddened by the response of this thread.  It seems tragic to me that so many people think that THEY are going to heaven but “most people are not.”

If you truly believe that most people are not going to heaven then do you not have a moral obligation to share the gospel with every person whom you meet?  If you feel that you are one of the precious few who have been blessed with the gift of eternal life, and you are certain that most people do not have that gift, but you fail to share your gift with someone else, how does that make you worthy of the kingdom of heaven?

Jesus’ mission was to teach us how to love one another.  “I give you a new commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you.” (John 13:34)  St. Paul writes, “Faith, hope, and love, let these endure among you, and the greatest is love.” (1 Corinthians 13:13)

LOVE is the good news.  Love is greater than faith and hope.  You should read 1 Corinthians 13:1-13.  It will remind you that you can have all the faith in the world but if you do not genuinely love everyone—particularly those who do not love you back—then your faith is futile.  Luke 6:32 reminds us that "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.”

I see a lot of faith in God’s mercy in this thread, but I see no love.  I see a lot of complacency.  Complacency is laziness.

There are three phases of Christianity, and the best way to understand it is to compare it to a kid and a cookie jar:

There are those Christians who obey God’s commandments because they fear hell.  Those are like the kids who do not touch the cookie jar because they know that if they do, their Dad will smack them.  Their intentions are correct, but their motivation is immature and undeveloped. 
They obey God to avoid hell.

There are those Christians who obey God’s commandments because God tells them that that is what they ought to do.  These people are like children who do not touch the cookie jar because they are obedient to their parents.  They know what their parents have told them and they obey.  This is more mature than the previous, but they still do not have the correct motivation in mind. 
They obey God to please God.

Lastly, there are those Christians—truly good Christians—who obey God’s commandments because they genuinely want to love other people.  They are not worried about heaven or hell.  They are not concerned for their own judgment because they have made other people their priority.  These people live their lives as Christ lived his.  This is like a kid who does not touch the cookie jar because he knows that it will spoil his appetite. 
These Christians obey God out of love.

They purpose of Christianity is not salvation, it is LOVE.  Salvation comes to those who love.  Consider this: Christ taught us the way to love perfectly, no?  So if we truly strive to love perfectly, then will salvation not come to us?
This is NOT saying that it is our acts that save us.  This is saying that if we act as Christ act, we are acknowledging Christ.  Amen, we are becoming Christ himself to other people.

DC Talk wrote:

the greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is christians who acknowledge jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
Read this, Christians.  Read this, and read the posts of all of the non-Christians in this thread.  IS THIS NOT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING?

You who swear that we get to heaven by faith and not acts are causing others to stay out of the kingdom of heaven by your very logic!  This is not the Christianity that we are called to live!

Like I said, the response of Christians in this thread is tragic.  I disagree with the word ignorant.  It’s laziness.  We find it easy to be baptized, and contribute to a “God-thread” on a forum, and consider ourselves a shoe-in.  Remember what Christ said: "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.” (Matthew 21:31)

Wake up!  Heaven is not a country club.  There is no secret handshake.  There is no secret about it.

Lastly: to those of you who believe that only those who acknowledge Christ as their savior can get into heaven and no one else:

Mark 9:38-41 wrote:

John said to him, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us."  Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.  For whoever is not against us is for us.  Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.”
2007-04-19 07:35:32
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7186|Salt Lake City

This is a combination post.

Skruples:  Well said, I couldn't have put it any better myself.  Best post yet in this thread.

G3|Genius: While I am still not a believer, your last post was fantastic.  I think a great many Christians and non-Christian believers could learn a great deal from you.
2007-04-19 08:29:32
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|7076|Sea to globally-cooled sea
thank you
2007-04-19 08:36:42
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|7000|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth
People who belive in eheaven and hell are just stupid anyway and I can't wait until we are able to unfreeze those millionaires in cryogentic labs so they can tell you that there is no afterlife.  If that scares continue to use the heaven placebo but at least realise this and don't say Muslims are wrong and you are right?
2007-04-19 12:24:32
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|7000|CH/BR - in UK

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

People who belive in eheaven and hell are just stupid anyway and I can't wait until we are able to unfreeze those millionaires in cryogentic labs so they can tell you that there is no afterlife.  If that scares continue to use the heaven placebo but at least realise this and don't say Muslims are wrong and you are right?
They'll probably die when unfreezing, as their blood will have crystallized. It's the biggest problem they have with unfreezing...

-konfusion
2007-04-19 12:54:03
stef10
Member
+173|6932|Denmark
I can not say that I am going to heaven just because I believe in Jesus. But what about the other ones that think they are going to heaven. I am starting to think that if you do not believe in Jesus you can still go to heaven aslong you do what you find morally correct. Our moral is there for a special reason.
And it seems like many Jews do not believe in Jesus but are they going to heaven since they are said to be gods people? It is very difficult to find the right answer since Christians say that Jesus is the son and the Jews say that he is not. What should you believe in? Maybe this is a test from god to see if you can ignore all of this informations and follow the heart that god has provided yu with. I do not know. There is not any chance of knowing what is right and that is a shame.

 

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