Love is over emphasized (not always a bad thing, read on) in post modern evangelical preaching, but sin is basically left out most of the time. The Bible has been watered down so much it's been basically thrown out... because post modern teaching is filling the church with false converts. Ray Comfort provides evidence of this with the number of decisions being made and then about 90% of them falling away from the Church, with most of them never to return and far worse off than before. "Like the dog that returns to it's vomit, or the swine that returns to the mud." They become bitter when life get's tough, as Jesus promised. And, there is a chance they may commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which has been horribly torn out of context so I'll explain that later.
Trials and tribulations will follow, but when you preach about love people expect life to be, well, happy. That's why you don't preach love first, only after you preach about sin. Jesus didn't preach love, or the gospel to the proud at heart. He humbled them by the law first, then introduced the gospel. Romans 7:7 "I did not know sin
but by the law." It was the "key" to unlock the sinner from his shackles of sin. Telling someone they need a cure when they don't know the disease is foolish. When the disease is told, then can you talk about the cure.
G3|Genius wrote:
Phrozenbot, thank you for a long, and obviously well-thought-out response. I thoroughly enjoy discussions like this because it is through friendly sparring over our faith that I learn the most. You remind me of passages that I have not considered, and you challenge me in my Christian journey. For that, thank you.
I do have a few questions/comments/clarifications about your post:
Well, I try, but don't thank me. Thank God. And to be honest, my Christian walk has been incredibly shaky. A little too shaky if you ask me...
G3|Genius wrote:
I do not disagree with you, Phrozenbot. I do think, though, that many Christians downplay the necessary role Christian love plays in our salvation. Salvation is not a passive occurrence. Salvation is not something bestowed upon us simply because of a baptism. Now, before I am misunderstood, let me clarify myself: we do not earn salvation. We would all fear our judgment were it not for God’s mercy and forgiveness. We immerse ourselves in the Lord’s mercy, and trust Him. We cannot save ourselves. Our works cannot save us, and we cannot purchase salvation. This is what it is meant that “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). It would be heresy to claim anything other than that.
However, God judges us by how we love each other, and through our love for each other how we love God Himself
Matthew 25:34-36 says that:
Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
The sheep is the true servant, while the goat is the false servant, or false convert. The false convert doesn't really love his fellow Christians, and if he/she does, it's not any more than their non-Christian friends. The church is the body of Christ, and the body of Christ are the sheep, or those born again. If you don't care for your other fellow Christians (the false convert isn't one, but can still call them as his fellows) then it's a good sign you are not saved. Having love for other Christians, however, is a good sign you are. There are many signs to see if you are in the faith, or not, which is why Paul said to always examine ourselves in the faith, because
even false converts show signs of being true converts. They won't forever, but they will for a while.
It's also important to know the difference between our salvation being judged, and our works. The false convert will fail to do what God expects, which is departing from sin and yes any other thing God has requested, but the true convert isn't perfect either. It's why we need to strive to be like Jesus more, because while we can't be him, we can become more like him. Love is one way, yes, but you can love all you want and still sin like you always do and that's no good either.
G3|Genius wrote:
This is the passage about the sheep and the goats that you mentioned. This is about love! God separates us by those who loved their neighbor and those who did not; this is made perfectly clear. When questioned, Jesus told us this:
Matthew 22:37-40 wrote:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Yes I think it is very important we love each other as ourselves, like the good Samaritan.
G3|Genius wrote:
I do not think that “fear” is synonymous with “be scared.” I think that fear in this passage means “be full of awe and respect.” In Hebrew the word is “yir’ah”…to revere. It can also mean to be afraid, dread, or be exceedingly fearful…but I think that fear as in what one feels before fight or flight kicks in would not be purposeful. I think that it should be interpreted as follows” Fear, almost to the point of dread, out of reverence. I say this because I recall the way Moses reacted to the burning bush. Read Exodus 3:4-7:
When the LORD saw him coming over to look at it more closely, God called out to him from the bush…God said, "Come no nearer! Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I am the God of your father…" Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God….
It’s an interesting thought, the interaction between Moses and God. Moses is clearly afraid, but God asks Moses to remove his sandals out of need for respect, not having any concern with Moses’ fear.
I don’t know. This itself is a curious debate: the nature of the fear we ought to have of God. I don’t think that one can be both scared of God and love God the way Jesus asked us to. I think that to respect and to love is much more likely.
Well if we don't have fear then we are arrogant. If God is telling us what we have done is wrong, and that his wrath will soon be poured out on us, shouldn't our response be fear? If not, you don't care because you don't think God is going to do anything, until it's too late. That's why fear, yes reverence, helps us. If my dad told me not to touch a muffler that was hot but I couldn't tell and didn't fear what he said, I'd have no regard to what he said and I'd find out if it was hot on my own.
Moses, I think, was actually in pain. He couldn't stand God's holiness as it was too unbearable for him to look at, and, it's a burning bush so I'd be startled too. Anymore of God showing himself and he would have killed Moses. God's presence demands justice, because it is holy. That's what Moses feared.
But I have to disagree. You can fear and love someone at the same time. It's a respecting fear, and look it's God he made the universe and everything in it, surely he can crush you in an instant for offending him. Those being judged for damnation will be "ground to powder."
G3|Genius wrote:
I am not saying to put people first instead of God. I am saying to put people first instead of yourself. I am saying do not be so egocentric when it comes to your salvation. Concentrate on loving your neighbor, and your salvation will come to you. Jesus told us that loving our neighbor is synonymous with loving him. “'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me” (Mt. 25:40). Furthermore, ignoring our neighbor is denying Christ: “’I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment..."(Mt. 25:45-46).
I believe these two things: that there is no salvation except through Christ. And we are judged by how well we love.
Well, if you are saved, then yes we should have joy we are going to heaven to be with God, but it's not like it's some big party when you get to heaven. We should be concerned with the eternal welfare of others now... it is why Jesus told us to go fishing, for the lost and spiritually blind. And anyone feeling better than the guy next to him because he is saved and the other guy isn't is a very bad attitude. We shouldn't delight in others being sent to hell, or the outer darkness, as God says he does not delight in sending them away.
But, to not be hospitable to the lowest of men, is to not be hospitable to God. If some hot chick needed a ride, I'm sure most men would be happy to give her a ride, but if some bum needed one, most wouldn't give him a second thought. No I take that back, they might yell to the guy "get a job." What if he smells? You think Jesus smelt like flowers back in his time? No, no one did.
I believe the scripture you are making reference to is pointing out how arrogance and pride can keep us from
serving the needy, no matter how low they were, because Christ was willing to save us, and we are worse, sinners in his sight! If you won't humble yourself and help someone, no matter who they are, then how can you expect God to do the same for you?
1 Peter 5:5-6 "All of you must put on the apron of humility, to serve one another; for the scripture says, 'God resists the proud, but shows favor to the humble.' Humble yourselves, then, under God's mighty hand, so that he will lift you up in his own good time" And if we won't, then we are enemies of God as God resists the proud. He does not resist his own children.
G3|Genius wrote:
For a true Christian, the end is salvation, yes. But the means is love. We receive salvation because Christ loves us, and we follow Christ’s commandment to love God and one another out of love for Him. Remember, every time we perform an act of love for another person we are loving God.
Christ died for his glory and because he HATES sin. God is infinite, and when he is offended, he is infinitely offended. Being royally pissed off doesn't even come close. And because of this, he put an end of to the countless sinners. When God saves us, we look clean in his sight (whiter than snow) because of Jesus. Through him, we have imputed righteousness. It's not our righteousness, it's God's. John MacArthur said we have an alien righteousness. But because we are apart of Christ, we become pleasing to him now, because other wise, we are a stench to God's nostrils.
So firstly, Jesus died on the cross for his glory, and secondly because he hates sin, but yes also because he loves us. The glory God received was that good prevails over evil, he is ultimately in control, he defeated sin, he defeated death, and he brings forth life to those unworthy, who can now praise him for his awesome power and love for us. As you can see, love is not excluded from the picture, but it is part of it and compliments it. Nothing to argue about that.
But now since God has many servants of his all over the earth sharing the good news to get saved, thus glorifying God, we can expect the world to spin a bit longer. Remember when God flooded the earth? The only good people in God's sight were Noah and his family. If they were not around, God would have killed off all of mankind for good, and probably would right now if it were not for his children inhabiting the earth right now. Of course, Jesus has not returned yet because he is waiting for as many people to get saved as possible.
G3|Genius wrote:
This is true, and it makes me smile. All of creation, by its existence, glorifies its creator. By the same logic, love for creation = love of Creator. God creates someone, and I love them; through that action I love God.
But, the world is fallen, just like us. Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Yes, we do nice things and are capable of good emotions, such as love and compassion, but evil above all things. And no, you don't love God by loving his creations. If I buy my kids a TV and now all they do is watch it, and don't even notice me when I come home from work, they are loving the gift, not the one who gave it. And I surely won't feel any love when my kids won't even give me a second thought because they are watching spongebob.
John Piper, a reformed baptist, said enjoying things of the world more than God is sacrilege. I would have to agree with him, seeing as I remember God saying our love for him should make our love for our father and mother look like
hate. So to me, you can't indirectly love God by loving others. You love what you are loving. We should, however, be thankful for what God gives us. Nothing wrong with enjoying what God gives us, but if it controls us, it becomes a sin, and people can be one of those things.
G3|Genius wrote:
I agree!! And this is what I was saying, going back to the original question: Does the fact that the Jewish Professor is not a Christian prevent him from entering into the kingdom of heaven? I say, no! Because this man never received a formal baptism does not mean that he is excluded from the possibility of salvation. True, no one can get to heaven except through Christ. There is no way except through Christ. But Christ can save a person who does His will without knowing it was the will of Christ. In other words, it is flawed logic to say “something does not exist unless I first understand it.” Or, rephrased, “Christ’s love and mercy will not be extended to this man simply because he does not recognize it to be Christ’s love and mercy.”
Jews, as far as I know, feel that all they need to do is pray to have their sins forgiven, since they do not have a temple. The animals sacrificed didn't pay for their sins, they were just a shadow of The Lamb, who would pay for all our sins, once and for all. But, since Jews reject Jesus as the messiah, they won't get saved because Christ, the only way, saves the humbled, broken at heart, and captive soul. Humbled that they are sinners and are nothing but a stench in God's nostrils, contrite because of their offenses, and helpless because they are captive by sin and the devil.
Thus, how can you be saved if you don't know what you need to be saved? Romans goes into great about sin, but the Jews reject the New Testament. Again, Romans 7:7 "I did not know sin by but the law." Paul said he was ignorant of sin, and that the law was his schoolmaster. The Ten Commandments is to be a mirror, to reflect out filth, but the Jews tried to "keep" them, and Paul described it as taking the mirror off the wall to clean yourself. It can't. You break one part of the law, and you break all of the law, and no one can keep the law. Paul said the harder he tried to keep them, he found he couldn't please God still. Only Christ can make us pleasing in his sight, not how hard we try we keep the commandments (and we should still).
Jews know of sin, yes, but do they know Christ? You can't know salvation unless you know Christ. You need a savior, the spotless Lamb, to save you. Since they reject the freely given blood of Christ, there is no way to Heaven for them. And some of you must be thinking that all Jews go to hell. No, if they accept Christ and are born again, then they will. Many of the prophets knew of Christ but were not sure when or what it would be like when he came. Christ is foreshadowed many times. The Bible does not cease to amaze me.
G3|Genius wrote:
The spirit may move me to do something, but if I do not recognize it to be the spirit, does that take away the validity of the action? Absolutely not. Christ’s mercy is offered to everyone. Some people accept it, and some people deny it. But putting a name to something is not itself the acceptance or the denial. Remember: the son who told his father no but then went out into the field was the one who did the father’s bidding.
Denial of Christ is not done over night, it's done over a long period of time. Not everyone is saved over night, in fact, it can take years, but we are warned of what can happen if we keep resisting. Our hearts become hardened more and more everyday we do not repent and submit to Jesus, and there may become a point where we harden our hearts completely to stone where we
won't repent. Because, as we sin more, our hearts become harder so we don't feel as guilty as time goes on. And if we don't feel guilty, we
won't repent, and if we won't repent, we can't get saved. When this point comes, God loses his patience, and that soul won't ever become saved. God is willing to work with our stubborn nature, but only for so long...
That
is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If we can't come to repent, it becomes a sin, and if we can't repent of it, we can't get
saved. And this is grossly offensive to Jesus. That
cannot be forgiven. But like Jesus said, all sins can be forgiven, so if any of you reading have felt you have committed something that is so horrible and Jesus won't forgive you, no, he CAN! Go get saved. And I assure you, if I can get saved, anyone can... but if you won't respond to the Holy Spirit, then this is your warning. The Pharisees were warned because after witnessing such great miracles by God, they still wouldn't submit.
G3|Genius wrote:
I did not throw these things out, I simply typed what I was moved to type. If I thought of a passage, I looked it up. Because I was writing mainly on Love, my quotes were a lot of John and Corinthians. I do not pay attention to which books of the Bible I use and which I do not. I just go with it.
Well... the scripture talks about seriousness of sin a lot, and it's important that it's included. There isn't a thing wrong with love, but you can't base everything off of it. Jesus was passionate because he wanted to see his people, the Jews, become saved, and many were not. Jesus rebuked the pharisees, telling them how they were making everyone else twice a son of hell, and that they themselves would not enter!
I want everyone to go the heaven, even the most absolute evil people of this world. If I'm worthy of hell just as much as some evil dictator, where it is dark, burning with sulphur, great wailing and gnashing of teeth, where the worm never dies and where you are bound by hand and feet, what makes you think I want to spend eternity there? I'd hate the day I was born, for everyday of my life. A million years could pass, and not even a second of eternity would have passed. I'm sorry, I don't feel anyone deserves that punishment for that long. Maybe the most evil of men might deserve it for a bit, but for all eternity? Who would want that?
If God can forgive me, and he knows I've sinned many times and so terribly, then anyone can go to heaven. It just makes me want to scream the good news... I'd be more than willing to talk to anyone on how to get saved if they asked. I'm doing it out of love, which is important, but I believe your teachings on how to get to heaven are aberrant, which is why I have to disagree with you on many things.
But, um, anyways some of the scripture brought up dabbles into predestination which is subject to much debate. Personally, I believe that once you are saved, you are always saved, while there is some scripture that can be interpreted otherwise. And it's also important, like I said, to understand what is being judged. Works or our sin. If you are being judged for your sins... well you're already going to hell but I'm not sure about works for certain.
Anyways, I enjoyed this as well, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from. Any typos is because I'm very tried. God bless, but I really hope you get this salvation deal hit on the nail because I think what you are trying to say is a little vague for me to understand. We can grow in holiness by doing what is right (and love is part of that, amongst many things), and staying away from sin and guarding ourselves from temptation.
Varegg wrote:
All restrictions about who does and who doesn`t go to heaven is made by men with questionable motives !
I'd ask you to find scripture on that but then again you called the Bible simply a book, yet you base your faith on it?
unnamednewbie13 wrote:
The fact that the Catholic Church keeps changing its mind over the centuries proves how much we really know about the mind of God.
There is a lot I don't agree with the Catholic Church. Most of their religious traditions is of man, not God.
theelviscerator wrote:
herrr_smity wrote:
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
my favorite bible quote, from this "peaceful" religion
That was an order given to the ancient Jews for a specific reason.
Certainly has no bearing on today.
Yes. Firstly, the Israelites lived well in Egypt, but they left because of the oppression. It's not like any good land is free, especially when it's occupied.
God did remind though that the Israelites were not righteous, but that the people living in the region (Canaanites, Perizzites, Amorites, Jebusites etc.) were wicked and deserved to die.
+1 for you.
