Pages: 1 … 3 4 5 6 7

 

2007-04-24 08:52:03
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

Yes Cam, anyone would fight. Between us however is the fundamental difference is who is the aggressors and who has been backed into a corner. I am not for or against Israel for any other reason than I see them as getting thier asses kicked for centuries and they have finally said enough. I see the Arab states as overly agressive in the region both in their govts. and their religion.
Well therein lies the end of our argument because we have an unbridgeable gap in terms of our opinions on the situation. As you well know, I view the Zionists to be the ones fundamentally at fault - as such we must agree to disagree.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-24 08:52:38)

2007-04-24 08:52:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Has lowing just compromised his entire argument in that last comment ...mmm? Lowing it would seem you agree with the Palestinians principles but disagree with their ethics (i.e. targeting of civilians etc.)?
Ah ha! Rightly so. He supports the Palestinian's right to attack but has ethical issues with their tactics!
Yes Cam I do have ethical issues with their tactics. TO use children as shields, as bombs, as IED's, yeah, surprise surprise. I got a problem with that.
2007-04-24 08:54:17
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I said we would go to war with them, and I promise you, that war would not be fought using our women and children as shields, nor would we target their's.
Thank you again. You confirmed what any normal person would say: you would resist with violence, much like the Palestinians. I don't condone their collateral killing of civilians much as I regard the air bombardment of civilian areas as cowardly.

To reverse a phrase oft-spouted by you guys: if the Israeli civilans know that the bombers are coming then perhaps they should clear the area.... (I don't agree with this however).
Yes Cam, anyone would fight. Between us however is the fundamental difference is who is the aggressors and who has been backed into a corner. I am not for or against Israel for any other reason than I see them as getting thier asses kicked for centuries and they have finally said enough. I see the Arab states as overly agressive in the region both in their govts. and their religion.
Israel has only been in existence in the last century. No one is debating that the Jews have had a rough ride, that's not the issue. The issue is how ISRAEL are conducting themselves. Why should the Palestinians pay the price for the worlds mistreatment of the Jews with their land?

Honestly lowing, what are the Palestinians supposed to do in their situation (by this I don't mean rocket attacks are their only solution, I would like your opinion)? What would you do if you were a Palestinian living in a refugee camp, guilty of nothing but being Palestinian (for they are not all extremists)?

Last edited by Braddock (2007-04-24 08:54:45)

2007-04-24 08:54:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Yes Cam, anyone would fight. Between us however is the fundamental difference is who is the aggressors and who has been backed into a corner. I am not for or against Israel for any other reason than I see them as getting thier asses kicked for centuries and they have finally said enough. I see the Arab states as overly agressive in the region both in their govts. and their religion.
Well therein lies the end of our argument because we have an unbridgeable gap in terms of our opinions on the situation. As you well know, I view the Zionists to be the ones fundamentally at fault - as such we must agree to disagree.
Yes  I know, same with Serge and countless others, I simply can not comprehend as to why though, given the history of pursecution and the fact that the Arabs wanted the Jews elliminated before there was even an Israel to bitch about.

I also do not look at the situation between Israel and Palestine as separate from the rest of the ME strife. I link them as one in the same issue.

Last edited by lowing (2007-04-24 08:56:33)

2007-04-24 08:58:03
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6992|Texas - Bigger than France

Braddock wrote:

Israel has only been in existence in the last century. No one is debating that the Jews have had a rough ride, that's not the issue. The issue is how ISRAEL are conducting themselves. Why should the Palestinians pay the price for the worlds mistreatment of the Jews with their land?

Honestly lowing, what are the Palestinians supposed to do in their situation (by this I don't mean rocket attacks are their only solution, I would like your opinion)? What would you do if you were a Palestinian living in a refugee camp, guilty of nothing but being Palestinian (for they are not all extremists)?
The other side, of course, is what would you do if you were Israeli?

No matter though...both sides can make peace but choose not to.
2007-04-24 08:59:08
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Thank you again. You confirmed what any normal person would say: you would resist with violence, much like the Palestinians. I don't condone their collateral killing of civilians much as I regard the air bombardment of civilian areas as cowardly.

To reverse a phrase oft-spouted by you guys: if the Israeli civilans know that the bombers are coming then perhaps they should clear the area.... (I don't agree with this however).
Yes Cam, anyone would fight. Between us however is the fundamental difference is who is the aggressors and who has been backed into a corner. I am not for or against Israel for any other reason than I see them as getting thier asses kicked for centuries and they have finally said enough. I see the Arab states as overly agressive in the region both in their govts. and their religion.
Israel has only been in existence in the last century. No one is debating that the Jews have had a rough ride, that's not the issue. The issue is how ISRAEL are conducting themselves. Why should the Palestinians pay the price for the worlds mistreatment of the Jews with their land?

Honestly lowing, what are the Palestinians supposed to do in their situation (by this I don't mean rocket attacks are their only solution, I would like your opinion)? What would you do if you were a Palestinian living in a refugee camp, guilty of nothing but being Palestinian (for they are not all extremists)?
I guess the same thing that Israel has had to do for the past 60 years. Israel has Palestine by the short hairs, it is not about to let go for one reason, as soon as they do, Palestine will come up and sucker punch Israel again. How many times does this have to happen to you before you say fuck that?

Are we forgetting who is surrounded by hateful intolerant countries??

Last edited by lowing (2007-04-24 09:00:10)

2007-04-24 09:01:20
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire

Pug wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Israel has only been in existence in the last century. No one is debating that the Jews have had a rough ride, that's not the issue. The issue is how ISRAEL are conducting themselves. Why should the Palestinians pay the price for the worlds mistreatment of the Jews with their land?

Honestly lowing, what are the Palestinians supposed to do in their situation (by this I don't mean rocket attacks are their only solution, I would like your opinion)? What would you do if you were a Palestinian living in a refugee camp, guilty of nothing but being Palestinian (for they are not all extremists)?
The other side, of course, is what would you do if you were Israeli?

No matter though...both sides can make peace but choose not to.
I would like to think if I were an Israeli I would promote the idea of a two state solution, viewing it as the only means to attain a lasting peace with my Palestinian neighbours. This is were education is important, if you are taught to hate and not trust Arabs (and likewise with the teachings of Arabs towards Jews) how can peace ever be expected?
2007-04-24 09:02:57
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:


Yes Cam, anyone would fight. Between us however is the fundamental difference is who is the aggressors and who has been backed into a corner. I am not for or against Israel for any other reason than I see them as getting thier asses kicked for centuries and they have finally said enough. I see the Arab states as overly agressive in the region both in their govts. and their religion.
Israel has only been in existence in the last century. No one is debating that the Jews have had a rough ride, that's not the issue. The issue is how ISRAEL are conducting themselves. Why should the Palestinians pay the price for the worlds mistreatment of the Jews with their land?

Honestly lowing, what are the Palestinians supposed to do in their situation (by this I don't mean rocket attacks are their only solution, I would like your opinion)? What would you do if you were a Palestinian living in a refugee camp, guilty of nothing but being Palestinian (for they are not all extremists)?
I guess the same thing that Israel has had to do for the past 60 years. Israel has Palestine by the short hairs, it is not about to let go for one reason, as soon as they do, Palestine will come up and sucker punch Israel again. How many times does this have to happen to you before you say fuck that?

Are we forgetting who is surrounded by hateful intolerant countries??
You didn't really answer my question about how you would feel and what you would do if you had been a Palestinian brought up in a refugee camp.
2007-04-24 09:09:12
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6992|Texas - Bigger than France

Braddock wrote:

I would like to think if I were an Israeli I would promote the idea of a two state solution, viewing it as the only means to attain a lasting peace with my Palestinian neighbours. This is were education is important, if you are taught to hate and not trust Arabs (and likewise with the teachings of Arabs towards Jews) how can peace ever be expected?
It's kind of hard to make peace if those in charge can't hold sway over their own people.  It's not Israel's responsibility to prevent rocket attacks on Israel...
2007-04-24 09:10:44
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:


Israel has only been in existence in the last century. No one is debating that the Jews have had a rough ride, that's not the issue. The issue is how ISRAEL are conducting themselves. Why should the Palestinians pay the price for the worlds mistreatment of the Jews with their land?

Honestly lowing, what are the Palestinians supposed to do in their situation (by this I don't mean rocket attacks are their only solution, I would like your opinion)? What would you do if you were a Palestinian living in a refugee camp, guilty of nothing but being Palestinian (for they are not all extremists)?
I guess the same thing that Israel has had to do for the past 60 years. Israel has Palestine by the short hairs, it is not about to let go for one reason, as soon as they do, Palestine will come up and sucker punch Israel again. How many times does this have to happen to you before you say fuck that?

Are we forgetting who is surrounded by hateful intolerant countries??
You didn't really answer my question about how you would feel and what you would do if you had been a Palestinian brought up in a refugee camp.
I dunno, how would you feel if you were raised as a fuckin dung beetle and all you got to do was roll a ball of shit all over the dessert?

I am not Palestinian, I do not relate to them, nor to Israel, I am forming my opinion on simple morality and history and current events. All I hear is what Israel should be doing for peace and nothing about the Muslim countries that want to destroy them.
2007-04-24 09:12:26
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7207|Argentina

Pug wrote:

Right, don't defend your stance at all.  It's more convenient...
I'm at work, later I'll address you.
2007-04-24 09:16:15
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:


I guess the same thing that Israel has had to do for the past 60 years. Israel has Palestine by the short hairs, it is not about to let go for one reason, as soon as they do, Palestine will come up and sucker punch Israel again. How many times does this have to happen to you before you say fuck that?

Are we forgetting who is surrounded by hateful intolerant countries??
You didn't really answer my question about how you would feel and what you would do if you had been a Palestinian brought up in a refugee camp.
I dunno, how would you feel if you were raised as a fuckin dung beetle and all you got to do was roll a ball of shit all over the dessert?

I am not Palestinian, I do not relate to them, nor to Israel, I am forming my opinion on simple morality and history and current events. All I hear is what Israel should be doing for peace and nothing about the Muslim countries that want to destroy them.
If you have no empathy why feel the need to share your opinions? You spout biased rhetoric in favour of one side and, when asked, refuse to even attempt to view the situation from the opposing sides perspective ...you are not debating, you are arguing.
2007-04-24 09:20:30
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6992|Texas - Bigger than France

Braddock wrote:

You didn't really answer my question about how you would feel and what you would do if you had been a Palestinian brought up in a refugee camp.
How come with the Israeli's you focus on the future, but with the Palestinians you focus on the past?
2007-04-24 09:20:34
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

Yes  I know, same with Serge and countless others, I simply can not comprehend as to why though, given the history of pursecution and the fact that the Arabs wanted the Jews elliminated before there was even an Israel to bitch about.
Because two wrongs don't make a right, they make a wrong.

lowing wrote:

I also do not look at the situation between Israel and Palestine as separate from the rest of the ME strife. I link them as one in the same issue.
Territorial v Religious, very different.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-24 09:20:56)

2007-04-24 09:22:56
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Yes  I know, same with Serge and countless others, I simply can not comprehend as to why though, given the history of pursecution and the fact that the Arabs wanted the Jews elliminated before there was even an Israel to bitch about.
Because two wrongs don't make a right, they make a wrong.

lowing wrote:

I also do not look at the situation between Israel and Palestine as separate from the rest of the ME strife. I link them as one in the same issue.
Territorial v Religious, very different.
The situation is an entire package.
2007-04-24 09:27:54
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire

Pug wrote:

Braddock wrote:

You didn't really answer my question about how you would feel and what you would do if you had been a Palestinian brought up in a refugee camp.
How come with the Israeli's you focus on the future, but with the Palestinians you focus on the past?
I don't really know what you're getting at...I've been discussing the birth of Israel as a nation and the situation that that arose from and the fact that they established the State at the expense of Palestinian territory, that is the past where the State of Israel is concerned. Would you like me to go back further to the fact that the Hittites were there back in the early early days and that if they showed up Israel's oft used argument of we were here first would be in trouble?
2007-04-24 09:28:46
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:


You didn't really answer my question about how you would feel and what you would do if you had been a Palestinian brought up in a refugee camp.
I dunno, how would you feel if you were raised as a fuckin dung beetle and all you got to do was roll a ball of shit all over the dessert?

I am not Palestinian, I do not relate to them, nor to Israel, I am forming my opinion on simple morality and history and current events. All I hear is what Israel should be doing for peace and nothing about the Muslim countries that want to destroy them.
If you have no empathy why feel the need to share your opinions? You spout biased rhetoric in favour of one side and, when asked, refuse to even attempt to view the situation from the opposing sides perspective ...you are not debating, you are arguing.
No my bias has nothing to do with religion, land, or anything else. I am not Jewish nor Muslim.

Like I said, I read, I hear, and based on what I have read and heard, I choose "BLUE" over "RED". If I saw Israel like I see the Islamic states that surround her I would not be sympathetic. As it is, given the attitude of the Islamic nations in the ME and their hatred for ANYTHING that does not conform to their beliefs, I view Israel as the victim.
2007-04-24 09:31:43
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

As it is, given the attitude of the Islamic nations in the ME and their hatred for ANYTHING that does not conform to their beliefs, I view Israel as the victim.
Why is it then that I can travel safely and securely in such countries and enjoy their wonderful hospitality without a care in the world?
2007-04-24 09:34:15
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

As it is, given the attitude of the Islamic nations in the ME and their hatred for ANYTHING that does not conform to their beliefs, I view Israel as the victim.
Why is it then that I can travel safely and securely in such countries and enjoy their wonderful hospitality without a care in the world?
Can you not say the same thing about traveling in Israel?? Not being a smart ass, a real question.
2007-04-24 09:38:23
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

As it is, given the attitude of the Islamic nations in the ME and their hatred for ANYTHING that does not conform to their beliefs, I view Israel as the victim.
Why is it then that I can travel safely and securely in such countries and enjoy their wonderful hospitality without a care in the world?
Can you not say the same thing about traveling in Israel?? Not being a smart ass, a real question.
Yes that is also perfectly true. But you were suggesting that I would somehow be gobbled up in a sea of Islamic rage and fervour - which is just patently ridiculous let me tell you. You know I've been inside the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, touched the walls of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem (third holiest shrine of Islam), been helped over the separation barrier by Palestinians, chatted with PLO policemen in Bethlehem, taken camel rides off Jordanians in Petra, drank arabic tea with traders in bazaars. And guess what? I'm still here!
2007-04-24 09:45:51
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6992|Texas - Bigger than France

Braddock wrote:

Pug wrote:

Braddock wrote:

You didn't really answer my question about how you would feel and what you would do if you had been a Palestinian brought up in a refugee camp.
How come with the Israeli's you focus on the future, but with the Palestinians you focus on the past?
I don't really know what you're getting at...I've been discussing the birth of Israel as a nation and the situation that that arose from and the fact that they established the State at the expense of Palestinian territory, that is the past where the State of Israel is concerned. Would you like me to go back further to the fact that the Hittites were there back in the early early days and that if they showed up Israel's oft used argument of we were here first would be in trouble?
My statement refers to whether its more important to assess blame then to work towards a solution.

You are justifying the circle of violence by telling me the Palestinians have every right to use violence, which historically means they are going to get their asses handed to them...

And to interject into the Lowing beratement - the conflict expanded to include other topics beyond treatment of the Palestinians once Jihad is declared and other countries are involved...

What makes the issue so complex is its a long series of unfortunate events.  You can't isolate one event because it has historical implications beyond the issue at hand.  And the historical implications themselves are pluralistic which only solidify one side or the other...

It's time they tried something different - focusing on the future.
2007-04-24 09:52:30
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6992|Texas - Bigger than France
So I guess I'd like to expand this thought one more time:
It's time they tried something different - focusing on the future.

The OP asked - Is retaliation the solution?
No, but who exactly is retaliating?

Last edited by Pug (2007-04-24 09:52:53)

2007-04-24 10:12:42
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6790
The best thing would be for a two state solution.  Problem is that the arab state will get the shaft.  The US baically gives 60 billion a year to Irael's military and nothing to the palestinians.  So, the Israel side will always be much nicer and modern whie the arabs will live in refugee camps and have to fight for water while the Israelis live in air conditioned hoes.  It creates a sense of jealousy, envy and gives the upper hand to one state over the other. 

Personnally i think the problem was creating Israel in the first place.  The Jews should have been dispersed all over the world where they were welcome, like:  US, Canada, UK, alot of Europe, Australia.  It doesnt make sense to put them right next door to a hated adversary.  I know its their "holy land", but its also holy land for muslims.  In the past the spoils of war goes to the victor (that would be the muslims).  Then in 1948 we took the spoils of an ancient war back and gave it to the Jews and called it Israel. 

The US should back off their support for either side and let them settle it themselves (even though they already had done that) or go in there and enforce the law on both sides.  No more rocket strikes, no more overblown retaliations by the superior armed Israelis.  I can assure everyone they would not retaliate as fierce if their miitary wasnt paid for by the US.
2007-04-24 10:32:34
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7207|Argentina

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

You are right.  Those few Palestinians throwing rockets into Israel aren't the best for Palestine.  Despite that fact, Israel should consider the lives of innocent people before responding an attack.  If they kill people they are as bad as the extremists who are thorwing the rockets.
Well sort of.  Here's your point of view:

1) It's okay to kill people as long as you aren't as effective in doing it - like using a baseball bat instead of a gun.
2) It doesn't matter who fires first, the only thing that is important is to condemn the side that does the most damage.
3) It's okay to try to kill someone, but it's not okay to actually do it.
4) Unguided rockets fired are only fired on military targets, and that's okay when a peace treaty is in effect.
5) The peace treaty isn't in effect?  Ok, then game on...  Which is it?
6) Unguided rockets are so accurate all you have to do is point them at Israel and they hit military targets everytime, but guided rockets can only hit civilians.
7) Unguided rockets and mortars are the same as rocks.
8) Hamas = your buddies.  Let's not condemn the side that launch the attack which is going to kill more Palestinians because of an Israeli response.
9)  Hamas always plans their mortar and rocket attacks with precision.  Their attacks orginate in areas which are relatively unpopulated to prevent civilian casualties, because after all, they have the best interests of the Palestinian people in mind.  Plus the civilians in the area are doing everything they can to deter the actions of the Hamas by pressuring them to give up power and to leave their country.  When the unguided "ROCK"s are thrown at the Israeli borders can only land in military areas, because they are so accurate.  So accurate they don't kill anyone.  So accurate there is no way a civilian can't be hurt.  Like when the rockets hit Israeli cities during the short invasion - those rockets only killed military personnel that were wearing civilian clothes.

Bullshit Serge - show some anger at the Hamas - assess the blame where its due...
Ok, I'll address your post now.  Let's see.

1-No, it is not OK to kill people at all.
2-No, it doesn't matter who fires first.  If you reply you are as guilty as who fired first.  Wtf is the UN for?
3-No, it's not OK to try to kill anyone.
4-No, it's not OK.
5-You have two options, you could behave like your enemy and take the wrong way, or you could act in a better way than the extremists.  If you act like them, you are not better than them.
6-Unguided missiles are shit, they can kill people, but they are useless to hit a desired target.  Guided missiles can hit any desired target, then they should not hit civilians.
7-No, they aren't.  With rocks you obtain a better aimming.
8-I don't like Hamas, I defend the rights of the civilians who get constantly killed because of the actions of the extremists.
9-You are putting Hamas at the same level of the government of Israel.  If Hamas thinks they can achieve their goals through terrorism they are wrong, and the same goes to Israel.
2007-04-24 10:35:35
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7207|Argentina

Pug wrote:

So I guess I'd like to expand this thought one more time:
It's time they tried something different - focusing on the future.

The OP asked - Is retaliation the solution?
No, but who exactly is retaliating?
Pug, both sides are wrong, ok?
It's Israel heavy-handedness what is making things worse.  Think about it, if the Palestinians kill one guy, they kill 10.  It's wrong for both sides, but Israel takes it to another level.

 

Pages: 1 … 3 4 5 6 7

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard