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2007-04-24 05:43:16
apollo_fi
The Flying Kalakukko.
+94|6980|The lunar module

lowing wrote:

The military response is a last ditch effort to crush a movement that has grown beyond anyones control.

Of course I am told in other threads that they are just a small minority within Islam and therefore insignificant.

There are only 2 possible choices, either you gather public opinion and combat the extremism or you agree with the extremism. Either way, the moderates of guilty either NOT policing their own like we did with the KKK. Or they secretly support the extremism. I can not see any other reason for this to grow to what it has become.
The moderates may be guilty of not policing their own, I grant you that. Afghanistan would be a prime example.

Iran's current government, while not extreme Islamist per se, is applying similar provocation tactics in an attempt to guide public opinion against the west. There are signs, small ones, but they are there, of the Iranian moderates starting to police their own. In other words, kicking Ahmadinejad out of his office.

If we have the wits about us to let this happen, and not screw things up by escalating the conflict with Iran, that is.

Last edited by apollo_fi (2007-04-24 05:53:28)

2007-04-24 05:43:57
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6823|Kyiv, Ukraine

PvtStPoK wrote:

i dont know if  a letter from a USMC in Iraq worth anything good  when posted on a website who actually had for news The piano-playing cat who caused an internet sensation doesnt  sound serious to me. i mean, you enter the website and theres a big picture of Barack Obama and on left side, that cat...

http://www.drudgereport.com/ic.jpg
At least they didn't juxtapose Osama and Obama like they do on Fox News constantly.
2007-04-24 05:46:46
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I already said how they were defeated.....PUBLIC OPINION. You don't recalll military action against them because none had to be taken. The people decided they had had enough of their bullshit. The KKK was left largely ignored and when attention was paid to them it was in the negative.

Perhaps if the people of the ME contained their extremists in the same manner we would not have to be fighting this war.

It was stated in here that terrorism can not be defeated. I gave an example that it has been defeated, precedents has been established. Lets at least agree on that point.

It is up to the Islam to start policing their extremist elements, unless of course, they happen to agree with them.
Do you think public opinion in the middle east will change if you continue to bombard them with ordinance and support the dictatorships in the region? I don't fucking thinks so somehow. Your ally Saudi Arabia has instituted Wabahiism in schools for Christ's sake!

And no - the KKK still exists and as such has not been defeated. To eradicate an ideology completely is impossible. Neo-nazis regularly rally in Germany and other nations and engage in ethnicity based attacks, especially in Russia.
We are in the ME because WE were the ones bombarded, Spain GB, the PI, Indonesia etc......

I ask again, since you are the one of the people that says the extremists are a small minority and relatively insignificant, if this is so, why can they not be crushed from within?are they big or they are small, either way it is the populace as a whole that is to blame for their existence.

and yes Cam the terror group known as the KKK is defeated, reduced to a punchline in a joke. Although I understand why admitting that would be impossible, for to do so would mean you could ACTUALLY defeat terrorism, without appeasement, or negotiation, or burying your head in the sand and hope they leave you alone. Basically  dismissing defeatism and the apologist crowd, and that would go against your entire argument on the subject.

Last edited by lowing (2007-04-24 05:49:45)

2007-04-24 05:55:32
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

We are in the ME because WE were the ones bombarded, Spain GB, the PI, Indonesia etc......

I ask again, since you are the one of the people that says the extremists are a small minority and relatively insignificant, if this is so, why can they not be crushed from within?are they big or they are small, either way it is the populace as a whole that is to blame for their existence.

and yes Cam the terror group known as the KKK is defeated, reduced to a punchline in a joke. Although I understand why admitting that would be impossible, for to do so would mean you could ACTUALLY defeat terrorism, without appeasement, or negotiation, or burying your head in the sand and hope they leave you alone. Basically  dismissing defeatism and the apologist croud, and that would go against your entire argument on the subject.
Bombarded? lol. Can you hear bombs falling in your backyard or something? Since when did you become an Indo-Hispanic British person? Don't use the word 'WE' in any other context than as an American.

I think you'll find that 7/7, the Madrid & Bali bombings all occurred AFTER 9/11. The Madrid & London bombings being in direct response to the war in Iraq. Way to curb terrorism! It's a bit difficult for a nation of 300m to be absolutely everywhere on earth all at once to prevent the next attack... The message I got from the Bali bombing was this: don't go to Indonesia - stay safe at home or in a less dangerous country!

I wonder did the black woman whose torso washed up in the Wisconsin river when I stayed there for a summer think that the KKK was a 'punchline in a joke'? I met some serious racist fucks in some little hick towns while I was there.

No negotiation with unhinged terrorists. No appeasement of unhinged terrorists. DEFENCE & INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS! How hard is that to fucking understand? Your approach INCREASES terrorism!!!!! Is that so hard to understand???? Even your beloved CIA says so!!!!

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-24 05:57:54)

2007-04-24 06:08:36
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

We are in the ME because WE were the ones bombarded, Spain GB, the PI, Indonesia etc......

I ask again, since you are the one of the people that says the extremists are a small minority and relatively insignificant, if this is so, why can they not be crushed from within?are they big or they are small, either way it is the populace as a whole that is to blame for their existence.

and yes Cam the terror group known as the KKK is defeated, reduced to a punchline in a joke. Although I understand why admitting that would be impossible, for to do so would mean you could ACTUALLY defeat terrorism, without appeasement, or negotiation, or burying your head in the sand and hope they leave you alone. Basically  dismissing defeatism and the apologist crowd, and that would go against your entire argument on the subject.
Bombarded? lol. Can you hear bombs falling in your backyard or something? Since when did you become an Indo-Hispanic British person? Don't use the word 'WE' in any other context than as an American.

I think you'll find that 7/7, the Madrid & Bali bombings all occurred AFTER 9/11. The Madrid & London bombings being in direct response to the war in Iraq. Way to curb terrorism! It's a bit difficult for a nation of 300m to be absolutely everywhere on earth all at once to prevent the next attack... The message I got from the Bali bombing was this: don't go to Indonesia - stay safe at home or in a less dangerous country!

I wonder did the black woman whose torso washed up in the Wisconsin river when I stayed there for a summer think that the KKK was a 'punchline in a joke'? I met some serious racist fucks in some little hick towns while I was there.

No negotiation with unhinged terrorists. No appeasement of unhinged terrorists. DEFENCE & INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS! How hard is that to fucking understand? Your approach INCREASES terrorism!!!!! Is that so hard to understand???? Even your beloved CIA says so!!!!
No now I can't, I did hear them on 911 however. I said WE as a reference to all those that have been victimized by terrorism.


Did the KKK kill that woman? did they post its proud trophy on the internet? Do you honestly think that an isolated murder is the same thing as global fucking terrorism?? There is a lot of racism, blacks included. That does not make them terrorists.

I do understand that completely, excuse us for not staying on the defensive and moving to the offensive in this war. How about you join us instead of cheering our setbacks. I think that might help as well.

You still didn't answer my question. What position do you hold here now, a small minority group insignificant in its actions, or, a global threat? Or does it depend on the thread?

If they are small as you have indicated in the past, then I will use apple to apples comparison to how they can be defeated, because it has been done before. (KKK)

If they are global, then there is only 2 possiblities for them to have grown so big. Lack of involvement to crush them by the moderates, or, they actually support the movement. Again I ask......Which is it??
2007-04-24 06:14:45
RicardoBlanco
The English
+177|7018|Oxford

G3|Genius wrote:

I found this on Drudge and I love to read it things like this.

I want everyone in america to read this email.  I want the whole world to read this email, especially those of you that hate our nation and hate the war because you have no clue what's going on there and just go by what the drive-by media tells you.

You who disregard the undeniable fact that the media is out to make money and not out to give you the truth:

Here is a copy of an email from a US marine in Iraq, responding to Harry Reid (a deadbeat liberal senator).

http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/dat … flash1.htm

Read this, and LEARN something.

PS, [b]AMERICA KICKS ASS

link updated
So they basically helped the family get back what they had before the US invaded. Well, how noble, I bet they'll go home with a warm fuzzy feeling all over. I'd be pretty nice to a few heavily armed soldiers too if they gate crashed my house.
2007-04-24 06:21:25
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|7000|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth
To Lowing.

Based on your comments, do you think that all gun owners in the US share the responsibility for what happened at VT?  Because your logic suggest exactly that. 

You moan when someone critisises the US gun laws on the grounds that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and yet you do not apply that same thinking to an entire religion when it comes to Islam, c'mon dude are you being serious here?
2007-04-24 06:23:28
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

No now I can't, I did hear them on 911 however. I said WE as a reference to all those that have been victimized by terrorism.

Did the KKK kill that woman? did they post its proud trophy on the internet? Do you honestly think that an isolated murder is the same thing as global fucking terrorism?? There is a lot of racism, blacks included. That does not make them terrorists.
It's funny you should mention that because there are actually vastly more murders per year in the US and worldwide than die as a result of terrorism. Acts of terrorism are far more isolated an occurence than racially motivated killings.

lowing wrote:

I do understand that completely, excuse us for not staying on the defensive and moving to the offensive in this war. How about you join us instead of cheering our setbacks. I think that might help as well.
Erm - I'm not joining because I think your tactics are counter-productive and actually INCREASE terrorism. The British army, one of the best in the world, could not manage to defeat the PIRA having spent 25 years trying. The types of terrorists you speak of are vastly more fanatical: willing to blow THEMSELVES up for whatever silly cause they believe in. Attacking is not going to do anything but produce more of them, which is exactly what happened in Northern Ireland. Defending yourself from them is a far more productive counter-terrorism measure.

lowing wrote:

You still didn't answer my question. What position do you hold here now, a small minority group insignificant in its actions, or, a global threat? Or does it depend on the thread?

If they are small as you have indicated in the past, then I will use apple to apples comparison to how they can be defeated, because it has been done before. (KKK)
The KKK isn't global but white fascism movements are present in most western countries, significant movements existing in England, Germany and particularly Russia, to name a few.

lowing wrote:

If they are global, then there is only 2 possiblities for them to have grown so big. Lack of involvement to crush them by the moderates, or, they actually support the movement. Again I ask......Which is it??
It is 100% impossible to crush an ideology. You can take steps to ensure that people don't adopt said ideology or are persuaded to see sense. Firing bullets into a crowd of them makes them feel like the persecuted ones and they garner sympathy from borderline cases who then join up, especially when civilians are caught up in it.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-24 06:25:08)

2007-04-24 08:37:06
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

To Lowing.

Based on your comments, do you think that all gun owners in the US share the responsibility for what happened at VT?  Because your logic suggest exactly that. 

You moan when someone critisises the US gun laws on the grounds that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and yet you do not apply that same thinking to an entire religion when it comes to Islam, c'mon dude are you being serious here?
The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.
2007-04-24 08:43:16
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.
Something was done to stop it.... he shot himself in the fucking head lowing. What were the 300m people of America doing to prevent that from happening?
2007-04-24 08:45:30
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6979|Global Command
We are rendered defenseless by our politicians.
2007-04-24 08:46:22
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire

lowing wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

To Lowing.

Based on your comments, do you think that all gun owners in the US share the responsibility for what happened at VT?  Because your logic suggest exactly that. 

You moan when someone critisises the US gun laws on the grounds that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and yet you do not apply that same thinking to an entire religion when it comes to Islam, c'mon dude are you being serious here?
The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.
Did the police not take two full hours before realising the shit was in the process of hitting the fan?
2007-04-24 08:57:21
BALTINS
ಠ_ಠ
+37|6936|Latvia

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

To Lowing.

Based on your comments, do you think that all gun owners in the US share the responsibility for what happened at VT?  Because your logic suggest exactly that. 

You moan when someone critisises the US gun laws on the grounds that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and yet you do not apply that same thinking to an entire religion when it comes to Islam, c'mon dude are you being serious here?
The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.
Did the police not take two full hours before realising the shit was in the process of hitting the fan?
Well, next time the police gonna mobilize the national guard after a murder.
2007-04-24 09:05:26
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.
Something was done to stop it.... he shot himself in the fucking head lowing. What were the 300m people of America doing to prevent that from happening?
I said that in my post Cam, I also said if had not stopped ( suicide ) himself, someone else surly would have.

Can we live in a country that is free, with that comes responsibility and trust that your neighbors are going to act with in the realms of the law. Sometimes they do not. It is a price we are apparently willing to pay, for the freedoms we do enjoy. Rest assured, his ass was not gunna come out of that building free if even alive, if he had not shott himself. The point is moot still
2007-04-24 09:06:37
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

To Lowing.

Based on your comments, do you think that all gun owners in the US share the responsibility for what happened at VT?  Because your logic suggest exactly that. 

You moan when someone critisises the US gun laws on the grounds that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and yet you do not apply that same thinking to an entire religion when it comes to Islam, c'mon dude are you being serious here?
The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.
Did the police not take two full hours before realising the shit was in the process of hitting the fan?
Maybe you could loan the police your crystal ball. Where were you and your clarity on 911?
2007-04-24 09:09:53
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

The shooter at VT is DEAD, be it by his own hand, but he surly would have been by someone elses as well. The country, the police, the govt. all came out against these killings. The police were mobilized. In short, something was done to stop it. Your analogy is moot.
Did the police not take two full hours before realising the shit was in the process of hitting the fan?
Maybe you could loan the police your crystal ball. Where were you and your clarity on 911?
Hey maybe I'm living in a little naive bubble but if someone got shot on my campus there would be a lockdown. It's not like ignoring a fire alarm, somebody was fucking shot to death. Should the campus not have been moved to high alert in an attempt to see if the killer was still on the grounds?

EDIT: what's 9/11 got to do with VT?

Last edited by Braddock (2007-04-24 09:11:24)

2007-04-24 09:12:52
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Braddock wrote:


Did the police not take two full hours before realising the shit was in the process of hitting the fan?
Maybe you could loan the police your crystal ball. Where were you and your clarity on 911?
Hey maybe I'm living in a little naive bubble but if someone got shot on my campus there would be a lockdown. It's not like ignoring a fire alarm, somebody was fucking shot to death. Should the campus not have been moved to high alert in an attempt to see if the killer was still on the grounds?

EDIT: what's 9/11 got to do with VT?
The point is , it is easy for you to sit back and armchair quarterback what everyone shoulda done, after the game is over.
2007-04-24 09:16:05
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|7121|UK

lowing wrote:

It is up to the Islam to start policing their extremist elements, unless of course, they happen to agree with them.
Faaaaaaaaaark that.  i'll grass on em' the cop can police em.  I pay taxes for a reason.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2007-04-24 09:16:52
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

I said that in my post Cam, I also said if had not stopped ( suicide ) himself, someone else surly would have.

Can we live in a country that is free, with that comes responsibility and trust that your neighbors are going to act with in the realms of the law. Sometimes they do not. It is a price we are apparently willing to pay, for the freedoms we do enjoy. Rest assured, his ass was not gunna come out of that building free if even alive, if he had not shott himself. The point is moot still
The problem is lowing is that no-one prevented it from happening because it was pretty much impossible to prevent. Much like random acts of terror. They can only be minimised through vigilance and effective policing. Warfare against this type of phenomenon doesn't work as is patently obvious from the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns which have increased global terrorism and forced muslim to develop a siege mentality.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-24 09:18:25)

2007-04-24 09:17:02
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

m3thod wrote:

lowing wrote:

It is up to the Islam to start policing their extremist elements, unless of course, they happen to agree with them.
Faaaaaaaaaark that.  i'll grass on em' the cop can police em.  I pay taxes for a reason.
fair enough, as long as someone is doing something about it.
2007-04-24 09:18:06
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6740|Éire

m3thod wrote:

lowing wrote:

It is up to the Islam to start policing their extremist elements, unless of course, they happen to agree with them.
Faaaaaaaaaark that.  i'll grass on em' the cop can police em.  I pay taxes for a reason.
Besides lowing, many Muslim clerics and leaders speak out quite publicly against the extremist elements but ...surprise, surprise ...that doesn't get as much media coverage. Funny that!
2007-04-24 09:19:22
Rickard.Jarl-
Member
+7|6669|Sweden, Norrbotten, Luleå.
i didn't read it, page down 4 me
2007-04-24 09:19:24
b.i.g.sjonne
Member
+45|6893|Ruurlo, the Netherlands
like it 2
2007-04-24 09:19:51
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7101|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I said that in my post Cam, I also said if had not stopped ( suicide ) himself, someone else surly would have.

Can we live in a country that is free, with that comes responsibility and trust that your neighbors are going to act with in the realms of the law. Sometimes they do not. It is a price we are apparently willing to pay, for the freedoms we do enjoy. Rest assured, his ass was not gunna come out of that building free if even alive, if he had not shott himself. The point is moot still
The problem is lowing is that no-one prevented it from happening because it was pretty much impossible to prevent. Much like random acts of terror. They can only be minimised through vigilance and effective policing. Warfare doesn't work as is patently obvious from the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns which have increased global terrorism and forced muslim to develop a siege mentality.
I get it, we created terrorism by, fighting terrorism. Not that it had already existed before and climaxed on 911, mind you.
2007-04-24 09:23:25
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7005

lowing wrote:

I get it, we created terrorism by, fighting terrorism. Not that it had already existed before and climaxed on 911, mind you.
Man created terrorism lowing. You're just giving them a helping hand. Don't flatter yourself. I hardly think the climax was 9/11 given that countless numbers of deaths have occurred since, more than had previously occurred over the past few decades combined in the middle east.

I would argue that you are not 'fighting terrorism' because to do so you would in fact be decreasing global terrorism, which you aren't.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-24 09:25:03)

 

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