Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6893|The Land of Scott Walker
The murders two weeks ago at Virginia Tech naturally set off a cry in the usual quarters -- The New York Times, the London-based Economist -- for stricter gun-control laws. Democratic officeholders didn't chime in, primarily because they believe they were hurt by the issue in 2000 and 2004, but most privately agree.

What most discussions of this issue tend to ignore is that we have two tracks of political debate and two sets of laws on gun control. At the federal level, there has been a push for more gun control laws since John Kennedy was assassinated in 1963, and some modest restrictions have been passed. At the state level, something entirely different has taken place.

In 1987, Florida passed a law allowing citizens who could demonstrate that they were law-abiding and had sufficient training to obtain permits on demand to own and carry concealed weapons. In the succeeding 20 years, many other states have passed such laws, so that today you can, if you meet the qualifications, carry concealed weapons in 40 states with 67 percent of the nation's population (including Vermont, with no gun restrictions at all).

When Florida passed its concealed-weapons law, I thought it was a terrible idea. People would start shooting each other over traffic altercations; parking lots would turn into shooting galleries. Not so, it turned out. Only a very, very few concealed-weapons permits have been revoked. There are only rare incidents in which people with concealed-weapons permits have used them unlawfully. Ordinary law-abiding people, it turns out, are pretty trustworthy.

I'm not the only one to draw such a conclusion. When she was Michigan's attorney general, Democrat Jennifer Granholm opposed the state's concealed-weapons law, which took effect in 2001. But now, as governor, she's not seeking its repeal. She says that her fears -- like those I had about Florida's law 20 years ago -- proved to be unfounded.

So far as I know, there are no politically serious moves to repeal any state's concealed-weapons laws. In most of the United States, as you go to work, shop at the mall, go to restaurants and walk around your neighborhood, you do so knowing that some of the people you pass by may be carrying a gun. You may not even think about it. But that's all right. Experience has shown that these people aren't threats.

Virginia has a concealed-weapons law. But Virginia Tech was, by the decree of its administrators, a "gun-free zone." Those with concealed-weapons permits were not allowed to take their guns on campus and were disciplined when they did. A bill was introduced in the state House of Delegates to allow permit-holders to carry guns on campus. When it was sidetracked, a Virginia Tech administrator hailed the action and said that students, professors and visitors would now "feel safe" on campus.

Tragically, they weren't safe. Virginia Tech's "gun-free zone" was not gun-free. In contrast, killers on other campuses were stopped by faculty or bystanders who had concealed-weapons permits and brandished their guns to stop the killing.

We may hear more about gun control at the national level. The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals recently ruled that the District of Columbia's ban on handguns violates the Second Amendment's right "to keep and bear arms."

Judge Laurence Silberman's strong opinion argues that this is consistent with the Supreme Court's ruling in a 1939 case upholding a federal law banning sawed-off shotguns. Limited regulation is allowed, Silberman wrote, but not a total ban. Somewhere on the road between a law banning possession of nuclear weapons and banning all guns, the Second Amendment stands in the way. This is the view as well of the liberal constitutional law scholar Laurence Tribe. The Supreme Court may take the case, which is in conflict with other circuits' rulings.

If it upholds the D.C. decision, there is still room for reasonable gun regulation. The mental health ruling on the Virginia Tech killer surely should have been entered into the instant check database to prevent him from buying guns. The National Rifle Association is working with gun control advocate Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., to improve that database.

But even as we fine-tune laws to make sure guns don't get into the wrong hands, maybe the opinion elites will realize that in places where gun ownership is widespread, we're safer than in a "gun-free zone."
--------------------
This article highlights the pointless nature of feel good "gun free zones".  They will continue to be targeted until the universities wake up and allow law abiding citizens to make a criminal think twice.

Edit: http://560wind.townhall.com/columnists/ … _isnt_safe

Last edited by Stingray24 (2007-04-30 11:42:06)

Lost Hope
Lurker
+20|6775|Brussels, Belgium
I didn't read everything but I actually agree with you, in the US, the situation is so bad that owning a gun can protect you and your family as it can make it easier for you to go gung ho trigger happy.

As you and others said for other subjects, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/9c9f8f6ff3579a4c711aa54bbb9e928ec0786003.png
hate&discontent
USMC 0311 SEMPER FI
+69|6837|USA, MICHIGAN
i think that it is sad that these murders happened in "gun free zones". the reason i try to avoid "gun free zones" is the simple fact that to people who don't obey the law, a "gun free zone" means easy targets and no opposition.
CoronadoSEAL
pics or it didn't happen
+207|6966|USA

hate&discontent wrote:

i think that it is sad that these murders happened in "gun free zones". the reason i try to avoid "gun free zones" is the simple fact that to people who don't obey the law, a "gun free zone" means easy targets and no opposition.
exactly.
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6998|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth
Boring...as someone said in the other thread, you can't have a gun-free-zone in a country where guns are legal. Argument dead!

Oh and here's something to ponder on, before someone brings out the "what if i got burgled (or "burglarized" in bastardiZed English)" card read this

Prison Tariff in UK

Burglary - 1-2 years
Possession of a firearm - 5 years
Armed Robbery - 10-15 years

Now I know a lot of people say a criminal doesn't care about the law, but he'd have to be pretty stupid to risk 10-15 years in jail, not to mention the constant threat of going down for 5 just for owning a gun, when he'd get a much easier 2 years max unarmed.  Afterall the homeowners will be unarmed too.

Homicide Rates (per 100,000)
UK 0.8
US 6.9!!!!

Feel safe with all those guns now, statistics can kill.

Last edited by =OBS= EstebanRey (2007-04-30 12:22:46)

RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7163|US

Lost Hope wrote:

I didn't read everything but I actually agree with you, in the US, the situation is so bad that owning a gun can protect you and your family as it can make it easier for you to go gung ho trigger happy.
The situation is not that bad (excluding inner-city slums, which is mostly confined to gang related violence).
Bonesaw
Member
+8|7067
As I said in the other thread, 99% of major shootings in the US occur in "gun free zones".

For the guy from the UK I got a multiple part comment. First, I agree with you, you cannot have a "gun free zone" in a country where guns are legal. Thats where my agreeing with you ends.

If you want to speak statistics, doctors kill many times more people per year than firearms, as do auto accidents, plane crashes, just about anything really.

Also, burglary and robbery are two different things. In most jurisdictions, burglary is a felony and involves trespassing, or entering a building or remaining unlawfully with intent to commit any crime, not necessarily a theft -- for example, vandalism.

Robbery is the crime of seizing property through violence or intimidation. People returning home and finding their possessions stolen may well exclaim, "We've been robbed!", though actually they've been burgled (they wern't there to be robbed).

The only way your "criminal" could "go down" for 1-2 years is to hit the joint up when he is sure that no one is home. Otherwise, its robbery and he gets to do the hard time.

But enough of that tangent. I feel safer with my guns, as do most law abiding American Citizens. The governor fixed that loophole in the Virginia law earlier this week. Got that base covered now.

Oh yea, and did you know, in the UK they were trying to ban pointy knifes??? Apparently, since they took the guns away, there's been alot of stabbing going on. Wonder why?

People will always kill people. You take away the guns, they go at it with knifes, then bats, then sticks, then they're own hands. Nothing short of a total police state could put a dent in that, and thats something no one wants to see.
Bonesaw
Member
+8|7067
here's a link for ya about those knives http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

and here's another one http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u … 603869.ece


“Government and the police lack a coherent, evidence-based, reasoned strategy for dealing with knife carrying and knife-related offences,” the report from the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King’s College London said.

The report also cites evidence that one third of schoolchildren claimed to have carried a knife in the past year, with the figure increasing to 57 per cent of children who have been excluded from school.

“What evidence exists indicates that a significant minority of schoolchildren and young people carry knives and this problem may be growing,” the report says. “As long as there is unsliced bread, opportunities for knife crime will exist.”

The number of robberies carried out using a knife rose by 15,000 to 40,400 in 2005-06; muggings involving a knife increased by 17,730 to 42,000 and violent attacks using a knife on a stranger rose 18,300 to 51,700.


******Ministers are planning to increase the maximum penalty for carrying a knife without good reason to four years******* What the fuck is this? Actually I feel bad for the people who are gonna live under this law... I see that the UK has adopted the Nanny State model.

Lin Costello, co-founder of Mothers Against Murder and Aggression and a member of the Home Office knife and gun crime panel, said: “Young people are more and more willing to pick up a weapon. A knife is the easiest to get as they are in the drawer at home. We need to address not just the fact that there is more knife crime but more violent crime.”

crazy stuff......... no way i'd live there

Last edited by Bonesaw (2007-04-30 23:38:47)

=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6998|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

Bonesaw wrote:

As I said in the other thread, 99% of major shootings in the US occur in "gun free zones".

For the guy from the UK I got a multiple part comment. First, I agree with you, you cannot have a "gun free zone" in a country where guns are legal. Thats where my agreeing with you ends.

If you want to speak statistics, doctors kill many times more people per year than firearms, as do auto accidents, plane crashes, just about anything really.

Also, burglary and robbery are two different things. In most jurisdictions, burglary is a felony and involves trespassing, or entering a building or remaining unlawfully with intent to commit any crime, not necessarily a theft -- for example, vandalism.

Robbery is the crime of seizing property through violence or intimidation. People returning home and finding their possessions stolen may well exclaim, "We've been robbed!", though actually they've been burgled (they wern't there to be robbed).

The only way your "criminal" could "go down" for 1-2 years is to hit the joint up when he is sure that no one is home. Otherwise, its robbery and he gets to do the hard time.

But enough of that tangent. I feel safer with my guns, as do most law abiding American Citizens. The governor fixed that loophole in the Virginia law earlier this week. Got that base covered now.

Oh yea, and did you know, in the UK they were trying to ban pointy knifes??? Apparently, since they took the guns away, there's been alot of stabbing going on. Wonder why?

People will always kill people. You take away the guns, they go at it with knifes, then bats, then sticks, then they're own hands. Nothing short of a total police state could put a dent in that, and thats something no one wants to see.
Man this has been said a thousand times, cars, doctors etc have an obvious useful primary use and your government will be constantly bringing in laws and regulations to prevent as many deaths as possible.  The gun has one use, to kill and has almost no restrictions.  Also, I would be svery suprised if Plane crashes in the US made for more fatalities than gun murders, being as it is the safest way to travel (It's has to beat 6.9 in 100,000 remember).

As for my burglary comment I was quoting UK law so please look at that before firing back US law at me.  Burglary is breaking into someone's house with the intent to steal (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/burglary) anything else would be classed as "Breaking and Entering".  If you prefer, you can call the 10-15 year tariff as "armed burglary" but my point still stands and the punishments I have written are true.  So, if you take guns away from everyone and make the law very tough for being caught with one, your average criminal isn't going to have a gun.

I can't find the figures but I am almost 100% sure that the US has a higher knife fatality rate per head than in the UK and I agree with that article if Chefs say those knifes aren't needed and it'll reduce stabbings, would you be willing to do the same if they advised gun control would curb deaths?

What your country does on its own soil is your look out, but if 5,000 of our kids were dying every year, I don't think I could look at myself in the mirror if I decided those lives were worth less tome that to be able to have a gun so I could play Rambo in the forrests with my mates.

some random website I agree with wrote:

Gun Violence: an avoidable public health problem
As physicians and concerned citizens, we support stricter gun control laws in the United States. We see too many patients suffer from devastating gunshot injuries or premature death, and we believe that reducing the number of firearms in this country will lead to fewer firearm-related casualties.

A country without handguns: an unattainable fantasy?
It seems like an impossible goal, to get rid of our handguns. However, virtually every other industrialized country in the world has tighter gun control laws than the United States. Great Britain, for example, banned all handguns in 1997 when 16 children and their teacher were killed in a primary school gun massacre in Dublane, Scotland. The county's gun-related offenses fell by 21% following ban.

(1) Meanwhile, in the United States, approximately 5,000 children under 15 years of age are killed every year in America due to guns (not to mention the many more children who are permanently disabled).(2) Unfortunately, our gun culture and the powerful gun lobby has not permitted our government to invoke tougher gun laws.

In the populous country of Japan, the number of children killed by guns hovers at around ZERO. In fact, our 5,000 children killed every year number more than all of the child gun-related deaths of all the industrial nations combined .(3) Many children are killed due to accidental discharges while playing with guns that improperly locked or stowed. Children by age 2 are strong enough to pull the trigger of a gun, and by age 9 are still unable to determine a real gun from a toy gun.(4)

We need to have guns for self-protection, right?
Do you feel safer with a gun in the house? When you bring a gun into your home, you dramatically increase the risk of someone you love being injured by that gun. Research has shown that with each 1,000 gunshot victims that come to our hospitals, less than two victims are actually using a gun for self-defense at the time.(5)  The majority of gunshots are due to suicide, homicide (due to escalated arguments between loved ones), and accidental firings than to self defense. In fact, more guns are fired in the United States in the act of suicide than for any other reason.(6) To put simply: suicides, homicides (due to arguments), and accidental firings would be much less likely if the gun were not in the house in the first place.

"Don't blame the guns. Guns don't kill people; people kill people."
As Dr. Linda Erwin, a Portland trauma surgeon, says, "Yes, people kill people, but here's a news flash: the gun helps!" Quite an obvious statement, right? Yet, we don't often remember that the presence of a gun in any situation makes the situation more dangerous, not safer. In Australia, where gun control laws are strict, people are 5 times less likely to die from a gunshot than an American.(7) It is not that people in Australia get into less fights or assaults. Bar fights happen just as often in Australia as they do in the United States. However, with an increased likelihood of a gun being involved in the fight, a person is five times more likely to die as a result of the fight in the United States than in Australia. It is much more difficult to stab or beat someone to death compared to firing a handgun

Last edited by =OBS= EstebanRey (2007-05-01 00:02:31)

<BoTM>J_Aero
Qualified Expert
+62|6913|Melbourne - Home of Football

Bonesaw wrote:

******Ministers are planning to increase the maximum penalty for carrying a knife without good reason to four years******* What the fuck is this? Actually I feel bad for the people who are gonna live under this law... I see that the UK has adopted the Nanny State model.
Yes, because punishing crime is being a "nanny-state". You'd prefer everyone to be armed, with concealed weapons, and their permit, of course. So when they see someone with a knife they can shoot them, sensible stuff.

Bonesaw wrote:

People will always kill people. You take away the guns, they go at it with knifes, then bats, then sticks, then they're own hands.
In fact let me expand this, people will always kill people, I'd agree, even if they have to use their hands, but a gun makes it easier. With an assault rifle I can kill maybe 30 people, with a handgun and one clip of ammunition I can kill maybe 10 people, with a knife, you can kill the first person, and then, with an increasing degree of difficulty, maybe five people, in any public place, you'd be overpowered, the same would apply to sticks, or bats or your own hands.

Stingray24 wrote:

Tragically, they weren't safe. Virginia Tech's "gun-free zone" was not gun-free.
Now imagine Virginia Tech had've been entirely gun-free, imagine that the killer hadn't been able to buy guns at the local gun store, because despite what I'm sure you'd term as a legitimate interest in them, he had no need for them, he wasn't going to have to go shooting a horse with a broken leg, and he wasn't the member of a shooting club. If the killer hadn't have had a gun, and no one on campus had a gun, where does that leave us. He may have been able to strangle or stab the people in his dorm, but one or both of them would've been able to scream or resist, even if he'd planned things. A gun expedites the killing process, and it makes no one safer.

Last edited by <BoTM>J_Aero (2007-05-01 00:13:47)

Bonesaw
Member
+8|7067
Sorry, I was wrong about the plane quote, my bad. Its 3 am lol. Guns also have a useful primary use. What is the military gonna use? Cops? Citizens defending themselves from armed attackers who don't really pay attention to the fact that they obtain their guns illegally when they set out to jack your car? What happens if you need to defend your country from a tyrannical government? Your shit out of luck without guns.

And you are wrong about there not being restrictions on guns. Firearms are some of the most heavily restricted items out there. I've got a book on firearms law that probably weighs 8 pounds, and it only covers laws governing weapons classifed as Curio & Relic. There are a shit-ton of firearms laws on the books....the problem is, that criminals, by definition, don't obey the law....

The point of my argument was not to criticize UK firearms law, you guys have a completely different view on guns because its just not a huge part of your culture. The point of my argument is that the way the UK gets rid of its guns won't help the US. In the US, if you make laws and confiscate firearms from all law abiding citizens, then only the criminals have them. There is an enormous illegal weapons market in the US. It would take decades to drain that dry, and all the while, the citizens can't defend themselves.

The whole point behind posting the knife article was to show that they wanted to take away your ability to own a pointy kitchen knife. Thats just absurd. Its even more absurd to tack on a 4 year jail term to posessing an "uneeded knife". Just my opinion.

Last edited by Bonesaw (2007-05-01 01:11:21)

Bonesaw
Member
+8|7067
"Yes, because punishing crime is being a "nanny-state". You'd prefer everyone to be armed, with concealed weapons, and their permit, of course. So when they see someone with a knife they can shoot them, sensible stuff."

- Yeah, don't bring a knife to a gun fight. If some jerk pulls a knife on you and demands your wallet, and you pull your CCW on him, chances are he's gonna back down and split, even though you're well within your rights to plug him if he attacks. Punishing crime is not indicative of a nanny state, telling me that I can't smoke a cig because it will give me cancer or cut my steak with a pointy knife is.

"In fact let me expand this, people will always kill people, I'd agree, even if they have to use their hands, but a gun makes it easier. With an assault rifle I can kill maybe 30 people, with a handgun and one clip of ammunition I can kill maybe 10 people, with a knife, you can kill the first person, and then, with an increasing degree of difficulty, maybe five people, in any public place, you'd be overpowered, the same would apply to sticks, or bats or your own hands."

- one death is too many. you can end a conflict without firing a shot.

If you could kill 10 people with one magazine, I'd be amazed. Most people can't do that, cops especially included.  The Vtech shooter didn't have an "assault rifle" he had two pistols. He wasn't rushed or overpowered by anyone. He killed himself. The chances of a knife wielding psycho being bum rushed by a group of terrorized and grief stricken students are just a little more than if he had pistols and was busy reloading. (I am in NO way supporting the shooter, my heart and prayers go out to the victims and I hope he burns in hell for what he did).

"Now imagine Virginia Tech had've been entirely gun-free, imagine that the killer hadn't been able to buy guns at the local gun store, because despite what I'm sure you'd term as a legitimate interest in them, he had no need for them, he wasn't going to have to go shooting a horse with a broken leg, and he wasn't the member of a shooting club. If the killer hadn't have had a gun, and no one on campus had a gun, where does that leave us. He may have been able to strangle or stab the people in his dorm, but one or both of them would've been able to scream or resist, even if he'd planned things. A gun expedites the killing process, and it makes no one safer."

- but it wasn't entirely gun free. No place in this world is. He should never have been able to buy guns in the first place. Like I said earlier, the governor fixed that loophole.
Bonesaw
Member
+8|7067
"In the populous country of Japan, the number of children killed by guns hovers at around ZERO. In fact, our 5,000 children killed every year number more than all of the child gun-related deaths of all the industrial nations combined .(3) Many children are killed due to accidental discharges while playing with guns that improperly locked or stowed. Children by age 2 are strong enough to pull the trigger of a gun, and by age 9 are still unable to determine a real gun from a toy gun.(4)"

just to comment on this, I do agree that accidental deaths are a horrible problem. It is horrible because it is so easily solved. Lock your damn guns up, and teach your kids about them so they know what they are and to stay away from them unless a responsible (key word) adult is supervising and instructing. People leaving loaded guns laying around when there's a kid in the house just astounds me.

I didn't get my first gun until I was 18, but I knew what they were from before age 9 and that they weren't toys. I've been shooting since 15. Besides, I had enough Super Soakers and Nerf guns to satiate my curiosity.
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6998|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

Bonesaw wrote:

Sorry, I was wrong about the plane quote, my bad. Its 3 am lol. Guns also have a useful primary use. What is the military gonna use? Cops? Citizens defending themselves from armed attackers who don't really pay attention to the fact that they obtain their guns illegally when they set out to jack your car? What happens if you need to defend your country from a tyrannical government? Your shit out of luck without guns.
You've totally ignored my point!  If owning a gun carries very heavy sentences then a criminal is not gonna carry one to commit crimes like muggings.  Thus, you don't need a gun to defend yourself.  That was the whole point of the prison tariff piece I wrote. 

Oh and carjacking is almost non-existent in this country but seeing as you forget my last point so quickly I'll reiterate.  If you were gonna steal a car and the punishments for being caught is 1 year unarmed or you can take a gun with you and look at at least 10, would you take a gun?

The "tyrannical" government point is so stoopid and I can't believe pro-gunners even use it.  Come on don't be ridiculous, how far are you going to get against the military with Planes, Tanks etc?   If anything, being armed would give the Dictator reason to go on mass slaughters because he has the excuse that his "army" is being shot at.  You  can not tell me that in 2007, your "militia" (and let's not forget that everyone would have to agree and work together) would be a match for the US military.  There is far more chance of an "armed militia" leading civil war than any kind of safe haven from a dictatorship.

Also, the Serbs didn't needs guns to overthrow Milosevic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4311360.stm

As for Police and the Army, they would still be allowed guns of course (although the Police wouldn't be essential, our officers are unarmed).

Bonesaw wrote:

The point of my argument was not to criticize UK firearms law, you guys have a completely different view on guns because its just not a huge part of your culture. The point of my argument is that the way the UK gets rid of its guns won't help the US. In the US, if you make laws and confiscate firearms from all law abiding citizens, then only the criminals have them. There is an enormous illegal weapons market in the US. It would take decades to drain that dry, and all the while, the citizens can't defend themselves.
Again you've missed my point.  You can't just say that getting rid of guns would mean every mugger in the land would be left with a gun.  Make the punishments very harsh and then the only criminals with guns would be the high-end, organised crime gang members and gang bangers, neither of which is your average "law abiding citizen" gonna meet everyday.  Also, nearly all the illegal guns in the US have come from legal purchase orginally so moot.  Unless you have no faith in your border control, limiting guns is possible.

Bonesaw wrote:

The whole point behind posting the knife article was to show that they wanted to take away your ability to own a pointy kitchen knife. Thats just absurd. Its even more absurd to tack on a 4 year jail term to posessing an "uneeded knife". Just my opinion.
Why is this absurd?  Chefs said they have no culinary use so why do we need them?  When I buy knives for my kitchen I want them to be fit for purpose, I don't think "hey I'm not buying that set of knives, they look too safe".

And it's not a "pointy kitchen knife" they want to ban, it's pointed knifes over a certain length.  Please don't try and portrait this as us not being able to have pointy objects.

Last edited by =OBS= EstebanRey (2007-05-01 01:38:23)

PureFodder
Member
+225|6733
It does raise the obvious question, If a concealed gun is so effective at stopping crime. Why does the US have a righer rate of homicide by stabbing than the UK? Surely, as the criminals in the UK have very little access to firearms, they have to resort to using knives. This would indicate the UK stabbing homicide rate should be several times that of the US, not lower.
blisteringsilence
I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Kennedy
+83|7150|Little Rock, Arkansas

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

some random website I agree with wrote:

(1) Meanwhile, in the United States, approximately 5,000 children under 15 years of age are killed every year in America due to guns (not to mention the many more children who are permanently disabled).(2) Unfortunately, our gun culture and the powerful gun lobby has not permitted our government to invoke tougher gun laws.

In the populous country of Japan, the number of children killed by guns hovers at around ZERO. In fact, our 5,000 children killed every year number more than all of the child gun-related deaths of all the industrial nations combined .(3) Many children are killed due to accidental discharges while playing with guns that improperly locked or stowed. Children by age 2 are strong enough to pull the trigger of a gun, and by age 9 are still unable to determine a real gun from a toy gun.(4)
In 1999, there were 3,385 firearms-related deaths for children ages 0–19 years. They break down as follows: 214 unintentional, 1,078 suicides, 1,990 homicides, 83 for which the intent could not be determined, and 20 due to legal intervention. Source: 2002 edition of Injury Facts.

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

As for Police and the Army, they would still be allowed guns of course (although the Police wouldn't be essential, our officers are unarmed).
No they're not.

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

Homicide Rates (per 100,000)
UK 0.8
US 6.9!!!!

Feel safe with all those guns now, statistics can kill.
I just opened the most recent UCR from the FBI. The homicide rate in the US is 5.6 per hundred thousand. In the area where I live (lots of guns) it's 2.67 per hundred thousand. I feel pretty safe, actually.

Let's compare to the non metro rates for California and Illinois, states with no concealed carry and tons of gun control laws: Cali's is 4.17 and Illinois is 6.0. In DC, the city that is "gun free," the homicide rate is 35.4 per hundred thousand.

I'll take my chances.
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6998|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

blisteringsilence wrote:

In 1999, there were 3,385 firearms-related deaths for children ages 0–19 years. They break down as follows: 214 unintentional, 1,078 suicides, 1,990 homicides, 83 for which the intent could not be determined, and 20 due to legal intervention. Source: 2002 edition of Injury Facts.
And your point is?

blisteringsilence wrote:

No they're not.
When I said "our officers" I meant our regular policeman.  The Armed Response Units are specialised forces and your average bobby can't get in.  They have years of training to get into the ARU.  I'm sorry that you could not differentiate this, I will be try to be more specific next time.

blisteringsilence wrote:

I just opened the most recent UCR from the FBI. The homicide rate in the US is 5.6 per hundred thousand. In the area where I live (lots of guns) it's 2.67 per hundred thousand. I feel pretty safe, actually.

Let's compare to the non metro rates for California and Illinois, states with no concealed carry and tons of gun control laws: Cali's is 4.17 and Illinois is 6.0. In DC, the city that is "gun free," the homicide rate is 35.4 per hundred thousand.

I'll take my chances.
It wasn't "do you feel safe", it was pointing out that a country with gun control has a much, much, much lower homicide rate therefore you, in the USA,  have a much, much, much higher chance of being killed.  It wasn't a blanket statement about whether you feel safe or not. 

Secondly, you can not fairly compare States when there are no border controls.  This is the major flaw in the NRA's arguments about other States and trials because there is nothing stopping someone driving to another state, picking up a weapon and taking back with them.  Only if the US were to do a blanket ban on all States and ensure proper border control before you could really see if it works. 

I would be very surprised if the NRA or you would support that, even if it was a limited trial.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|7133|United States of America

PureFodder wrote:

It does raise the obvious question, If a concealed gun is so effective at stopping crime. Why does the US have a righer rate of homicide by stabbing than the UK? Surely, as the criminals in the UK have very little access to firearms, they have to resort to using knives. This would indicate the UK stabbing homicide rate should be several times that of the US, not lower.
We don't have enough guns per capita to protect ourselves from knife-wielding crazies. Three per person!

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

It wasn't "do you feel safe", it was pointing out that a country with gun control has a much, much, much lower homicide rate therefore you, in the USA,  have a much, much, much higher chance of being killed.  It wasn't a blanket statement about whether you feel safe or not.
Depite the fact that the homicide rates are different, 6.9 per (hundred thousand) 100,000 is a very samll chance. That means there are about 999,993.1 people who do not get shot. It's still not an astounding figure that'll make me believe we have a serious problem with them nor is it a "much, much, much higher chance of being killed."
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6998|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

DesertFox- wrote:

Depite the fact that the homicide rates are different, 6.9 per (hundred thousand) 100,000 is a very samll chance. That means there are about 999,993.1 people who do not get shot. It's still not an astounding figure that'll make me believe we have a serious problem with them nor is it a "much, much, much higher chance of being killed."
Yeah but I was comparing to Britain which is 0.8 per 100,000.  6.9/0.8=8.6.

Therefore you are nearly nine times more likely, to be murdered in the US than the UK.  In my opnion 2X would be much, 4X would be much, much and 8X is much, much, much.  I wasn't saying you had a good chance of being killed, I was saying compared to Britain you have a good chance of being killed.

All I'm saying is that if anything else was killing 7 out of every 100,000 people every year and could be controlled, it would be.  I refer you to your jaywalking laws, one that you are happy with despite the personal freedoms you lose, because you believe the lives saved each year are worth it (personally I think it's the most stupid law ever but then I guess it'd be healthy for a little role reversal in our arguments).

Last edited by =OBS= EstebanRey (2007-05-01 06:17:56)

Bonesaw
Member
+8|7067
In 1999, there were 3,385 firearms-related deaths for children ages 0–19 years. They break down as follows: 214 unintentional, 1,078 suicides, 1,990 homicides, 83 for which the intent could not be determined, and 20 due to legal intervention. Source: 2002 edition of Injury Facts.
And your point is?

-------I think his point was that not all of those "5,000" child deaths with guns were accidental.

I just opened the most recent UCR from the FBI. The homicide rate in the US is 5.6 per hundred thousand. In the area where I live (lots of guns) it's 2.67 per hundred thousand. I feel pretty safe, actually.

Let's compare to the non metro rates for California and Illinois, states with no concealed carry and tons of gun control laws: Cali's is 4.17 and Illinois is 6.0. In DC, the city that is "gun free," the homicide rate is 35.4 per hundred thousand.

I'll take my chances.
It wasn't "do you feel safe", it was pointing out that a country with gun control has a much, much, much lower homicide rate therefore you, in the USA,  have a much, much, much higher chance of being killed.  It wasn't a blanket statement about whether you feel safe or not. 

-------His statement wasn't about whether or not he feels safe. He was pointing out that, in the US, cities with more guns in the hands of private citizens are statistically safer than cities with strict gun control laws.

"Secondly, you can not fairly compare States when there are no border controls.  This is the major flaw in the NRA's arguments about other States and trials because there is nothing stopping someone driving to another state, picking up a weapon and taking back with them.  Only if the US were to do a blanket ban on all States and ensure proper border control before you could really see if it works. 

I would be very surprised if the NRA or you would support that, even if it was a limited trial."

--------For one, our federal border patrol is horrible. I have no faith in them and their ability to control the flow of illegal arms. None whatsoever, or just as much faith as I have in the Mexican Police :-p But again you are wrong, there are tons of laws regulating inter-state purchasing of weapons. The only way you can buy a gun out of state is if you buy it from a dealer with a FFL license and the dealer ships it to another dealer in your state who also has an FFL. Then you return home, get your background check done (again, once for each state) and take possession when everything checks out. Thats the only way, if you try to buy one at a gun show chances are you'll get caught and sent up the river.
Bonesaw
Member
+8|7067
"Sorry, I was wrong about the plane quote, my bad. Its 3 am lol. Guns also have a useful primary use. What is the military gonna use? Cops? Citizens defending themselves from armed attackers who don't really pay attention to the fact that they obtain their guns illegally when they set out to jack your car? What happens if you need to defend your country from a tyrannical government? Your shit out of luck without guns.
You've totally ignored my point!  If owning a gun carries very heavy sentences then a criminal is not gonna carry one to commit crimes like muggings.  Thus, you don't need a gun to defend yourself.  That was the whole point of the prison tariff piece I wrote. 

Oh and carjacking is almost non-existent in this country but seeing as you forget my last point so quickly I'll reiterate.  If you were gonna steal a car and the punishments for being caught is 1 year unarmed or you can take a gun with you and look at at least 10, would you take a gun?"

-------- I was just using car jacking as an example. And you've ignored my point completely as well. If you're gonna jack this guys car, but you know for a fact that there's a very good chance he's packing, you're probably not gonna do it. Likewise if you know for a fact he can't have a gun, regardless if you have one or not, thats gonna make the prospect of this guy's car look much better to you.

The "tyrannical" government point is so stoopid and I can't believe pro-gunners even use it.  Come on don't be ridiculous, how far are you going to get against the military with Planes, Tanks etc?   If anything, being armed would give the Dictator reason to go on mass slaughters because he has the excuse that his "army" is being shot at.  You  can not tell me that in 2007, your "militia" (and let's not forget that everyone would have to agree and work together) would be a match for the US military.  There is far more chance of an "armed militia" leading civil war than any kind of safe haven from a dictatorship.

------- We use it because, well, I dunno, maybe because its one of the whole reasons we have that right in the first place. Check out Jefferson sometime, he was all about that lol. And I didn't say anything about civilians fighting the Armed Forces, I said over throwing a tyrannical government. This opens up a whole new can of worms. No we wouldn't stand any chance against the entire military, but we wouldn't have to. There was a study done that found that 2/3 of the enlisted forces would not fire on US citizens for any reason. The military would probably split in two if it ever came to that. And your right, it's not gonna happen in 2007 because thankfully it hasn't come to that and hopefully it never will.

The whole point behind posting the knife article was to show that they wanted to take away your ability to own a pointy kitchen knife. Thats just absurd. Its even more absurd to tack on a 4 year jail term to possessing an "unneeded knife". Just my opinion.
Why is this absurd?  Chefs said they have no culinary use so why do we need them?  When I buy knives for my kitchen I want them to be fit for purpose, I don't think "hey I'm not buying that set of knives, they look too safe".

And it's not a "pointy kitchen knife" they want to ban, it's pointed knifes over a certain length.  Please don't try and portrait this as us not being able to have pointy objects.
--------But essentially, thats what it boils down to. Or thats what it will boil down to if pointy objects become "lethal weapons" in the UK, because the administration over there is ban-happy. Its absurd because I think you should have the right to own whatever kind of cooking utensil you damn well want lol. If the points aren't needed, then why do they keep making them? Why punish the masses for the acts of a few?

Last edited by Bonesaw (2007-05-01 06:42:00)

Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7258|Nårvei

Watched a documentary on CNN i think it was about the treatment or lack of such provided for mentally disturbed people and two of the cases mentioned was the VT and Columbine shootings, amongst the arguments was the funding of these institutions that let people out before they had fulfilled their treatment alas still being far from balanced and a possible threat to society.

Another point was that adults (18+) was to decide for themselves if they needed treatment or not, now what kind of system is that asking a mentally disturbed person if he needs to be locked up ?

Also the trend showed that each new shooting had a goal by the shooter to perform a "new record" or a more horrid event than the last !

When it comes to gun-laws it puts things into perspective - would these disturbed youngsters gotten hold of guns to carry out their plan no matter what ? -  experts states they would not have gone through with their plans of massacre without the guns !

You can`t debate the gun-laws without setting things in perspective and discuss the issue without taking all elements into consideration !!
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6998|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

Bonesaw wrote:

-------- I was just using car jacking as an example. And you've ignored my point completely as well. If you're gonna jack this guys car, but you know for a fact that there's a very good chance he's packing, you're probably not gonna do it. Likewise if you know for a fact he can't have a gun, regardless if you have one or not, thats gonna make the prospect of this guy's car look much better to you.
OK so you're saying that if the victim has a gun it makes it less likely that a criminal will attack him.  two points on that...

1) By that logic you should have a lower crime rate in the US right seeing as all your criminals are scared of their gun-toting victims.
2) A criminal will always one-up you.  So here, a burglar may take a baseball bat or knife with him (although he would be risking a hefty sentence because even that would count as going 'armed and equipped), in the US the criminal just takes two guns or one bigger gun.


Bonesaw wrote:

We use it because, well, I dunno, maybe because its one of the whole reasons we have that right in the first place. Check out Jefferson sometime, he was all about that lol. And I didn't say anything about civilians fighting the Armed Forces, I said over throwing a tyrannical government. This opens up a whole new can of worms. No we wouldn't stand any chance against the entire military, but we wouldn't have to. There was a study done that found that 2/3 of the enlisted forces would not fire on US citizens for any reason. The military would probably split in two if it ever came to that. And your right, it's not gonna happen in 2007 because thankfully it hasn't come to that and hopefully it never will.
Jefferson said that 200+ hundred years ago, the World is the same as then yeah?  By not mentioning the Army you are being even more naive.  Let's assume that this happens (which is even less likely than being killed in the currently with a firearm).  The army are going to do one of these things.

1) They support the Government - Gun toting citizens get slaughtered
2) They support the People - They are capable of taking out a few congressmen on their own methinks.
3) They split, the people all have guns too = Civil War.

I would love to see a hypothetical battle plan that all these gun owners are gonna use.

Bonesaw wrote:

--------But essentially, thats what it boils down to. Or thats what it will boil down to if pointy objects become "lethal weapons" in the UK, because the administration over there is ban-happy. Its absurd because I think you should have the right to own whatever kind of cooking utensil you damn well want lol. If the points aren't needed, then why do they keep making them? Why punish the masses for the acts of a few?
No, it doesn't.  Did you actually read the article or did you just Google "ban knives UK" and post the link?  It is quite simple, the knives they are talking about have no culinary use and are being used a lot in knife crimes.  It "boils down" to the fact we have something that isn't needed by the law abiding citizen being used by criminals.  You are trying to paint this as "look, the British government want to ban knives".  I ask you to read the article thoroughly and will again point you to your "nanny state" jaywalking laws do they not punish everyone for the actions of a few?
PureFodder
Member
+225|6733

DesertFox- wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

It does raise the obvious question, If a concealed gun is so effective at stopping crime. Why does the US have a righer rate of homicide by stabbing than the UK? Surely, as the criminals in the UK have very little access to firearms, they have to resort to using knives. This would indicate the UK stabbing homicide rate should be several times that of the US, not lower.
We don't have enough guns per capita to protect ourselves from knife-wielding crazies. Three per person!

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

It wasn't "do you feel safe", it was pointing out that a country with gun control has a much, much, much lower homicide rate therefore you, in the USA,  have a much, much, much higher chance of being killed.  It wasn't a blanket statement about whether you feel safe or not.
Depite the fact that the homicide rates are different, 6.9 per (hundred thousand) 100,000 is a very samll chance. That means there are about 999,993.1 people who do not get shot. It's still not an astounding figure that'll make me believe we have a serious problem with them nor is it a "much, much, much higher chance of being killed."
100,000 - 6.9 = 99,993.1 NOT 999,993.1
Bonesaw
Member
+8|7067
OK so you're saying that if the victim has a gun it makes it less likely that a criminal will attack him.  two points on that...

1) By that logic you should have a lower crime rate in the US right seeing as all your criminals are scared of their gun-toting victims.
2) A criminal will always one-up you.  So here, a burglar may take a baseball bat or knife with him (although he would be risking a hefty sentence because even that would count as going 'armed and equipped), in the US the criminal just takes two guns or one bigger gun.

-------1.) Areas in the US that have more citizens with guns DO have a lower crime rate
-------2.) A criminal will not always "one up you" If the crackhead down the street has a gun, he's not gonna say to himself "hmm, he's got a bigger gun than I do, I need two guns" He's gonna say "hey I've got a gun, i'm gonna go rob someone" He will pick an unarmed target over an armed target every time. Unless he's on crack... lol. Just the fact that you HAVE a gun is enough for most thugs, not how many or how big. Criminals don't like victims who can defend themselves.

Jefferson said that 200+ hundred years ago, the World is the same as then yeah?  By not mentioning the Army you are being even more naive.  Let's assume that this happens (which is even less likely than being killed in the currently with a firearm).  The army are going to do one of these things.

1) They support the Government - Gun toting citizens get slaughtered
2) They support the People - They are capable of taking out a few congressmen on their own methinks.
3) They split, the people all have guns too = Civil War.

I would love to see a hypothetical battle plan that all these gun owners are gonna use.

-------I did mention the Army, did you read my post? Like I said, it probably won't EVER come to that, but that was one of the main reasons for the RKBA in the first place. And my money would be on that they'd choose option #3 if it ever did happen.

No, it doesn't.  Did you actually read the article or did you just Google "ban knives UK" and post the link?  It is quite simple, the knives they are talking about have no culinary use and are being used a lot in knife crimes.  It "boils down" to the fact we have something that isn't needed by the law abiding citizen being used by criminals.  You are trying to paint this as "look, the British government want to ban knives".  I ask you to read the article thoroughly and will again point you to your "nanny state" jaywalking laws do they not punish everyone for the actions of a few?

--------Yes I read the article. How can you say that that knife has NO culinary use? WTF do people go around making "kitchen knives" with the sole purpose of having people stab eachother? Jaywalking laws?

------- Take a step back from the article for a second. I am not trying to paint it like your saying. I'm trying to say that, because criminals are using something innocuous, such as a kitchen knife, to commit a crime, that they are going after the item, not the root of the problem. If you have arson, you don't ban matches, you punish the arsonist. If you have computer hackers, you don't ban computers, you punish the hacker. Same goes for cooking utensils, if someone stabs someone with a knife, you don't ban the knife, you punish the retard who used it, not everyone else.

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