Poll

This forum believes Palestinians should give up their right of return.

For46%46% - 23
Against54%54% - 27
Total: 50
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7029|SE London

The right of Palestinian people to return and claim their lands and property in what is now Israel is a highly controversial issue. There is no doubt that they are entitled to do this, their right of return is enshrined in 4 seperate bodies of international law. The Palestinian government refuses to give up this right and the Israeli government refuse to allow the Palestinian people to exercise their right, claiming that adhesion to this law would lead to "the destruction of the Jewish state".

For those who are unfamiliar with the concept of the right of return, Wikipedia describes it as:
The term Right of return refers to the principle in international law that members of an ethnic or national group have a right to immigration and naturalization into the country that they, the destination country, or both consider to be that group's homeland, independent of prior personal citizenship in that country.
UN General Assmbly Resolution 194 calls for the Palestinian refugees to be allowed to return to their homes and all branches of international law back the Palestinians claim to their lands.

Should the Palestinian people give up this right, in the hopes that it may help the peace process? What if it does nothing to help the peace process? It is their last legal right and the central principle that the Palestinian people have been fighting to preserve for decades. If they give it up they have nothing left but the hope that their sacrifice will bring peace.

Many of those who oppose this motion believe that should Israel acknowledge the right of return of the Palestinian people and that this acknowledgement would add a dimension to the peace process that has never been seen before.

The supporters of this motion believe that should the Palestinians surrender their right of return, as Israel have requested they do on numerous occasions, the peace process could move forward and that the Israeli government would be more inclined to make greater concessions for peace.

Illan Pappe of Haifa University is one of those who opposes the motion.
My parents were German Jews who were kicked out of Germany and most of their relatives were killed in the holocaust. Because of this, I strongly support any struggle against oppression, dispossession, colonisation, like the one that has been inflicted on the Palestinian in the past and in the present. I believe that by acknowledging the right of return, Israel will acknowledge the ethnic cleansing it perpetrated against the Palestinians in 1948 when it dispossessed half of Palestines population, demolished half of Palestines villages and destroyed half of Palestines towns. This ethnic cleansing is the cause and the root of the problem.
I believe that by acknowledging the right of return Israel would be transformed from a racist and ethnic state into a democratic state. Where the prinicple of one person, one vote, would be the basis for the state and not the ethnicity and religion of the person. If we look at the peace process and the peace efforts ever since the creation of the state of Israel, all these efforts have failed because of the attempt to bypass the right of return, which is acknowledged by the United Nations, and to bypass the refugee issues. Therefore all the peace efforts so far have produced more bloodshed and more hostility.
By accepting the right of return as the basis for a comprehensive solution in Palestine, we can bring peace and reconciliation to Palestine, stability to the Middle East and also significantly improve the relationship between the West and the Arab and Islamic world.
Yossi Beilin, a member of the Knesset, is a supporter of the motion.
There won't be peace, without a solution to the refugee problem. A solution that is dignified, a solution which is fair, a solution which is agreed upon by both sides. There is no Israeli partner, from the right or from the left,
who is going to agree, that there will be both a Palestinian state based on the '67 borders and side by side there will be an Israel with a Palestinian majority, it will not happen. So, people can say "let them continue and fight for it" but it will not be implemented in Israel. And this is why I believe that, when you speak about a solution, when we speak about a compromise, we must speak about a solution. There are dreams on both sides, Israelis dream about a greater Israel, about a Jerusalem united, about sovreignty over the temple mount, al-ḥaram al-qudsī ash-sharīf, but they know that eventually al-ḥaram al-qudsī ash-sharīf will be under Palestinian sovreignty, if they want peace. The same goes for the Palestinians, who know that sometimes you use the right of return just to provoke Israelis and say you must give it to us, knowing that if you speak about the right of return there is no compromise, there is no peace. The role of the politicians is not to kill these dreams, people may go on and dream, the role of the politicians is to prevent these dreams from becoming nightmares, and this is what we are trying to do.
Is the right of return an obstacle to the peace process or is it an important part of any workable solution?

Should the Palestinian people who have; no free movement, no right to work, no secure tenure, give up this right of return and trust the Israeli government, who have continued to expand their settlements which are deemed illegal by Britain and most other countries. Would the sacrifice of this right be the key to a package that could bring peace, or is it yet another right of the Palestinians that Israel seek to erode in order to strengthen their own position in this conflict?
Sparx
Member
+0|6648
Excellent post. Peace in unity.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7029|SE London

7 votes already. You lot read quickly.
Sparx
Member
+0|6648
Lets just hope they read and understood each motion correctly.

Last edited by Sparx (2007-05-07 12:45:50)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,993|7079|949

The OP is somewhat confusing. In voting for, am I voting for the abandonment of right of return, or am I saying that I agree with the Palestinian right of return?

Stop smoking so much Bert
RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6927|Somewhere else

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The OP is somewhat confusing. In voting for, am I voting for the abandonment of right of return, or am I saying that I agree with the Palestinian right of return?

Stop smoking so much Bert
yes, I a gree.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7205|Argentina
They have the right to return, but they should get their own country first and achieve peace with Israel.  Without that, any other thing means nothing to them.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command
Let the terrorist Arab countries have them, they will fit right in.
Sparx
Member
+0|6648
ATG you're one good role model, yes you are

na, you're probably a fanatic on the 'other' side.

Palestinians should integrate into Israel IMO. We're all human.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7205|Argentina

ATG wrote:

Let the terrorist Arab countries have them, they will fit right in.
You have developed into an Islamophobe extremist.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

Sparx wrote:

ATG you're one good role model, yes you are

na, you're probably a fanatic on the 'other' side.

Palestinians should integrate into Israel IMO. We're all human.
I am under no obligation to be a role model, don't want to be, and I reject the notion.

The only thing I am fanatical about is peace and freedom.
I hate to see bright young minds focused on the wrong solution to the problem.
What kind of example are you making by making a thread suggesting Israel should not exist?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7029|SE London

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The OP is somewhat confusing. In voting for, am I voting for the abandonment of right of return, or am I saying that I agree with the Palestinian right of return?

Stop smoking so much Bert
What's confusing?

That's how a debate is supposed to be presented.

The motion is "This forum believes Palestinians should give up their right of return", you either vote for the motion to support it, or against the motion if you disagree with it.

What's not to understand?
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

sergeriver wrote:

ATG wrote:

Let the terrorist Arab countries have them, they will fit right in.
You have developed into an Islamophobe extremist.
Whatever.
Your country wasn't attacked, mine was.
Perhaps you'd feel different if you woke up one day and found out Islamic assholes killed 3000 Argentians.

Oh wait, it was Massod and Bush neocons that did it...I forgot.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7205|Argentina

ATG wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

ATG wrote:

Let the terrorist Arab countries have them, they will fit right in.
You have developed into an Islamophobe extremist.
Whatever.
Your country wasn't attacked, mine was.
Perhaps you'd feel different if you woke up one day and found out Islamic assholes killed 3000 Argentians.

Oh wait, it was Massod and Bush neocons that did it...I forgot.
You are wrong.  Iran made 2 attacks here.

Israeli Embassy attack in Buenos Aires

AMIA Bombing

But I can't hate a whole community coz of the actions of a few extremists.  And I never said 9/11 was not a Muslim extremists attack.  But if you feel happy saying all that BS, be happy then.
CruZ4dR
Cereal Killer
+145|7104|The View From The Afternoon
I just clicked on vote and crossed my fingers that I'd picked the right one. =/
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7029|SE London

sergeriver wrote:

They have the right to return, but they should get their own country first and achieve peace with Israel.  Without that, any other thing means nothing to them.
There is no way that will happen without first resolving the refugee crisis that has gone on and on for decades.

Personally, I am against this motion and believe that nothing will come of the Palestinians surrendering their right. Just like nothing has come of all the other ultimatums laid down by the Israelis that have been met by the Palestinians. Surrendering the last remaining legal right and recourse seems unwise to me, especially since to the people of Palestine this is a sacred right that many people have gone through considerable hardship to realise.

I am also against the idea of the two state solution. I acknowledge that it may be the only possible road to peace, but I find it detestable that it should be. It is comparable to the situation in South Africa, imagine if instead of the solution to apartheid that has been realised, a two state solution for whites and blacks - that is what is happening in Israel and is by no means an ideal solution.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2007-05-07 13:12:19)

Sparx
Member
+0|6648
bah, I don't want to go down this road again. You're reading only what you want to, my opinion was much broader than what you are implying.

You need to recognize differences ATG.

I am not an anti-semite.

Religion is a farce.

The motion against, is much more viable.

Last edited by Sparx (2007-05-07 13:05:49)

jonsimon
Member
+224|6943

sergeriver wrote:

ATG wrote:

Let the terrorist Arab countries have them, they will fit right in.
You have developed into an Islamophobe extremist.
Not to mention a mexi-phobe. ATG's working his way up to the rank of 'biggest hater on dst'.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6977|Global Command

CruZ4dR wrote:

I just clicked on vote and crossed my fingers that I'd picked the right one. =/
you should be here.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewforum.php?id=18

run along.



jonsimon wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

ATG wrote:

Let the terrorist Arab countries have them, they will fit right in.
You have developed into an Islamophobe extremist.
Not to mention a mexi-phobe. ATG's working his way up to the rank of 'biggest hater on dst'.
My wife is Mexican you tool.

Last edited by ATG (2007-05-07 13:05:34)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,993|7079|949

Bertster7 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The OP is somewhat confusing. In voting for, am I voting for the abandonment of right of return, or am I saying that I agree with the Palestinian right of return?

Stop smoking so much Bert
What's confusing?

That's how a debate is supposed to be presented.

The motion is "This forum believes Palestinians should give up their right of return", you either vote for the motion to support it, or against the motion if you disagree with it.

What's not to understand?
The wording was confusing.  Now I understand.  However, the proposition should read, " I am (FOR/AGAINST) the Palestinian Right of Return."  A motion would be putting the proposition to a vote.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-05-07 13:13:27)

paranoid101
Ambitious but Rubbish
+540|7187

ATG wrote:

CruZ4dR wrote:

I just clicked on vote and crossed my fingers that I'd picked the right one. =/
you should be here.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewforum.php?id=18

run along.



jonsimon wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


You have developed into an Islamophobe extremist.
Not to mention a mexi-phobe. ATG's working his way up to the rank of 'biggest hater on dst'.
My wife is Mexican you tool.
So that gives you the right to say anything you want does it? Hey look I don't like Mexicans but its ok my wife is Mexican so I can say what ever I want.

My Brother in law is from Afghanistan guess that means I can say just want I want about Muslims then, hey you can't call me racist, my Brother in law is Muslim.

What a crock of shit.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,993|7079|949

paranoid101 wrote:

ATG wrote:

CruZ4dR wrote:

I just clicked on vote and crossed my fingers that I'd picked the right one. =/
you should be here.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewforum.php?id=18

run along.

jonsimon wrote:

Not to mention a mexi-phobe. ATG's working his way up to the rank of 'biggest hater on dst'.
My wife is Mexican you tool.
So that gives you the right to say anything you want does it? Hey look I don't like Mexicans but its ok my wife is Mexican so I can say what ever I want.

My Brother in law is from Afghanistan guess that means I can say just want I want about Muslims then, hey you can't call me racist, my Brother in law is Muslim.

What a crock of shit.
I don't think ATG hates Mexicans per say, as long as they are Americanized Mexicans.  I think ATG is just a xenophobe (as are a large amount of people in general).

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-05-07 13:15:04)

Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7029|SE London

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

However, the proposition should read, " I am (FOR/AGAINST) the Palestinian Right of Return."  A motion would be the actual voting process, not the proposition itself.
Not at any debating society I've ever been to. But, hey, whatever. That's not important to the issue itself.
Sparx
Member
+0|6648
I think this thread is a mix-up already. I'd say that motion'd be too confusing for the layman.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7029|SE London

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

paranoid101 wrote:

What a crock of shit.
I don't think ATG hates Mexicans per say, as long as they are Americanized Mexicans.  I think ATG is just a xenophobe (as are a large amount of people in general).
I agree.

I think he is fine with Mexicans, so long as they are in the country legally. It's the illegal part of illegal immigrant, I believe he is so opposed to, but that's just my opinion.

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