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2007-05-12 09:33:17
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6995|San Diego, CA, USA
"BAGHDAD - The top U.S. commander in
Iraq reminded his troops Thursday that they must fight by the rules after a
Pentagon survey found many soldiers and Marines support torture to save a comrade's life and would not report a member of their unit for killing or wounding civilians.

In a letter to U.S. service members, Gen. David Petraeus said that adhering to high moral values "distinguishes us from our enemy" and is essential to winning support among the Iraqi population — the cornerstone of the new U.S. counterinsurgency strategy."

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070510/ap_ … eld_ethics



Can you really fight a 'fair' war?  You realize that Petraeus has never actually fought in battle - he's an administrator, a polician in Military fatigues.

More and more of our soldiers are being courtmartialed by the policially correct lawyers in our military.

What this does is demoralize our troops.  When a building has anti-tank rockets coming out of it and snipers shooting at you from inside - if women and children are in it should it be an American's soldiers reposibility that they die when they defend themselves? 

This is what the insurgents are doing to get our soldiers courtmartialed and demoralized.

As long as they abide by the Geneva convention that's all that they need.


Perhaps we need more of this instead of what we have now and we might actually win this war:

2007-05-12 09:35:19
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7096

"As long as they abide by the Geneva convention that's all that they need."

Problem is they don't, which would be the reason they get court court-martialed.
2007-05-12 09:39:02
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7208

Vietnam II anyone?
2007-05-12 09:41:01
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6852|North Carolina
I'm a pragmatist, so I understand the concerns here.  When fighting a guerilla enemy, all bets are off.

The way I see it, we should've just gone into Iraq, blown the shit out of the place, and kept the Iraqi Republican Guard intact.  Another American puppet could be installed in place of Saddam, while the IRG could just serve the same purpose as before.

Nation-building could be completely left up to the new government, rather than us.  We'd leave, save our own soldiers' lives in the process, and the mess would be the Iraqi people's responsibility.

If things got bad again, blow them to shit again.

Conquering is easy, nation building is futile.
2007-05-12 09:41:54
EVieira
Member
+105|6925|Lutenblaag, Molvania

ghettoperson wrote:

"As long as they abide by the Geneva convention that's all that they need."

Problem is they don't, which would be the reason they get court court-martialed.
That seems to sum it up pretty good.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-05-12 09:54:43
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7047|132 and Bush

Now we have bobble-head generals who nod along with the diplomats who want to hold their Versailles Conference before winning the war.

It's past time for our senior leaders to jettison the political correctness and fight to win. But they honestly don't know how anymore. They've been so thoroughly drugged with failed academic theories about counterinsurgency-with-lollipops that they're more concerned with avoiding embarrassments than with killing the enemy.

The bitter truth is that, in the type of conflicts we now face, we must be willing to fight as ruthlessly and savagely as our opponents. We have to play by their moral rules. Stay-at-homes who never served will howl in indignation, but the alternative is defeat.

And is it ever more virtuous to lose to fanatics with apocalyptic visions than to win?

The standard response from the campus commandos is that, if we descend to the level of our enemy's behavior, we'll become as bad as them. That's crap. In World War II, we didn't exactly coddle the residents of Hamburg and Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima.

BAGHDAD BLUES
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-05-12 09:57:14
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7096

BTW your title is hilarious. I'm sure he's just going to sign over control of the US army to Bin Laden any day now.
2007-05-12 09:59:07
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6852|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Now we have bobble-head generals who nod along with the diplomats who want to hold their Versailles Conference before winning the war.

It's past time for our senior leaders to jettison the political correctness and fight to win. But they honestly don't know how anymore. They've been so thoroughly drugged with failed academic theories about counterinsurgency-with-lollipops that they're more concerned with avoiding embarrassments than with killing the enemy.

The bitter truth is that, in the type of conflicts we now face, we must be willing to fight as ruthlessly and savagely as our opponents. We have to play by their moral rules. Stay-at-homes who never served will howl in indignation, but the alternative is defeat.

And is it ever more virtuous to lose to fanatics with apocalyptic visions than to win?

The standard response from the campus commandos is that, if we descend to the level of our enemy's behavior, we'll become as bad as them. That's crap. In World War II, we didn't exactly coddle the residents of Hamburg and Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima.

BAGHDAD BLUES
If this is all true, why not just pack up and leave?

Either way you look at it, there's not much point to staying in Iraq.

Under the current situation, we're too politically correct.  If we follow sheer pragmatism (as I suggested), we'd be gone already.
2007-05-12 10:41:05
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,073|7218|PNW

ghettoperson wrote:

BTW your title is hilarious. I'm sure he's just going to sign over control of the US army to Bin Laden any day now.
...thought of loosing...
2007-05-12 10:50:42
HunterOfSkulls
Rated EC-10
+246|6726

Harmor wrote:

More and more of our soldiers are being courtmartialed by the policially correct lawyers in our military.

What this does is demoralize our troops.  When a building has anti-tank rockets coming out of it and snipers shooting at you from inside - if women and children are in it should it be an American's soldiers reposibility that they die when they defend themselves? 

This is what the insurgents are doing to get our soldiers courtmartialed and demoralized.
Last time I checked, soldiers weren't getting prosecuted for your hypothetical situation, they were getting busted for shit like shooting Joe Iraqi and then dropping a shovel and an AK-47 on him to make it look like Joe Iraqi was planting IEDs and cover their fuckup.
2007-05-12 11:12:26
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6976|Global Command

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Now we have bobble-head generals who nod along with the diplomats who want to hold their Versailles Conference before winning the war.

It's past time for our senior leaders to jettison the political correctness and fight to win. But they honestly don't know how anymore. They've been so thoroughly drugged with failed academic theories about counterinsurgency-with-lollipops that they're more concerned with avoiding embarrassments than with killing the enemy.

The bitter truth is that, in the type of conflicts we now face, we must be willing to fight as ruthlessly and savagely as our opponents. We have to play by their moral rules. Stay-at-homes who never served will howl in indignation, but the alternative is defeat.

And is it ever more virtuous to lose to fanatics with apocalyptic visions than to win?

The standard response from the campus commandos is that, if we descend to the level of our enemy's behavior, we'll become as bad as them. That's crap. In World War II, we didn't exactly coddle the residents of Hamburg and Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima.

BAGHDAD BLUES
If this is all true, why not just pack up and leave?

Either way you look at it, there's not much point to staying in Iraq.

Under the current situation, we're too politically correct.  If we follow sheer pragmatism (as I suggested), we'd be gone already.
Wrong. Leaving means failure. It means defeat. It means fighting a larger, bloodier war when these asshole become enboldened.
2007-05-12 11:49:08
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7096

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

BTW your title is hilarious. I'm sure he's just going to sign over control of the US army to Bin Laden any day now.
...thought of loosing...
How is losing (one o) betraying you?
2007-05-12 11:52:56
Hurricane
Banned
+1,153|7077|Washington, DC

The way I see it:

A: We keep fighting as we do, being humane as possible, and getting nowhere while tons of soldiers get killed.

B: We scale it up, fight fire with fire. If violence is what the insurgents want, then violence they get. More than likely will make the US receive LOTS of political criticism from, well, everyone. We might win, or we might just cause the Iraqis to harbor tons of hatred for us.

Neither choice seems great.

edit: We (meaning the politicians and officers) need to remember that sometimes you go all in, and sometimes you fold and accept you can't win this time.

Last edited by Hurricane (2007-05-12 11:54:35)

2007-05-12 11:58:22
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7002

Harmor wrote:

"BAGHDAD - The top U.S. commander in
Iraq reminded his troops Thursday that they must fight by the rules after a
Pentagon survey found many soldiers and Marines support torture to save a comrade's life and would not report a member of their unit for killing or wounding civilians.

In a letter to U.S. service members, Gen. David Petraeus said that adhering to high moral values "distinguishes us from our enemy" and is essential to winning support among the Iraqi population — the cornerstone of the new U.S. counterinsurgency strategy."

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070510/ap_ … eld_ethics



Can you really fight a 'fair' war?  You realize that Petraeus has never actually fought in battle - he's an administrator, a polician in Military fatigues.

More and more of our soldiers are being courtmartialed by the policially correct lawyers in our military.

What this does is demoralize our troops.  When a building has anti-tank rockets coming out of it and snipers shooting at you from inside - if women and children are in it should it be an American's soldiers reposibility that they die when they defend themselves? 

This is what the insurgents are doing to get our soldiers courtmartialed and demoralized.

As long as they abide by the Geneva convention that's all that they need.


Perhaps we need more of this instead of what we have now and we might actually win this war:

Don't believe in principles and morality eh????
2007-05-12 12:58:20
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7208

CameronPoe wrote:

Don't believe in principles and morality eh????
This coming from a guy who supports the "Palestinian cause."
2007-05-12 14:07:54
Mr.Dooomed
Find your center.
+752|6774

CameronPoe wrote:

Don't believe in principles and morality eh????
But you believe in all the horrible civilian deaths that Hamas and Al'Qaida have unleashed? You think THEY believe in principlies and morality? Yet again, you support their 'cause'...Do you think we can win against terrorists if we play by principles and morality? If we fought this shit war like we did in the Second war (Minus the nukes) then we would be coming out on top by far.

I still don't clearly understand how we don't have the intel to find some major Terrorist hideouts or locate the people who are funding them. It seems by now in this day and age we can do that, and we probably can but this might be some bullshit cover up by politicians or some of our Generals who have been bought out by Saudis/any other rich/corrupt officials...I'd like to think not. But it makes you wonder.
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
2007-05-12 14:14:11
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7002

usmarine2005 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Don't believe in principles and morality eh????
This coming from a guy who supports the "Palestinian cause."
So you don't agree with Palestinians having their own sovereign and independent democratic state free from oppression and military/civilian occupation alongside an Israeli state then, with all displaced people being recompensed for the fact their land was taken to make a state of Israel? I don't see how that can be compared in a negative light against forgiving soldiers of torture/murder.... You're hilarious.
2007-05-12 14:16:29
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7002

Im_Dooomed wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Don't believe in principles and morality eh????
But you believe in all the horrible civilian deaths that Hamas and Al'Qaida have unleashed? You think THEY believe in principlies and morality? Yet again, you support their 'cause'...Do you think we can win against terrorists if we play by principles and morality? If we fought this shit war like we did in the Second war (Minus the nukes) then we would be coming out on top by far.

I still don't clearly understand how we don't have the intel to find some major Terrorist hideouts or locate the people who are funding them. It seems by now in this day and age we can do that, and we probably can but this might be some bullshit cover up by politicians or some of our Generals who have been bought out by Saudis/any other rich/corrupt officials...I'd like to think not. But it makes you wonder.
Don't agree with targetting civilians deliberately. Al Qaeda aren't a Palestinian group either get your facts straight. I am a man of principles - just because your enemy stoops to depraved levels of conduct does not legitimise you doing it. That makes you as bad as them, cedes you the moral high ground and is basically immoral: two wrongs don't make a right.
2007-05-12 14:17:58
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7047|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

Im_Dooomed wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Don't believe in principles and morality eh????
But you believe in all the horrible civilian deaths that Hamas and Al'Qaida have unleashed? You think THEY believe in principlies and morality? Yet again, you support their 'cause'...Do you think we can win against terrorists if we play by principles and morality? If we fought this shit war like we did in the Second war (Minus the nukes) then we would be coming out on top by far.

I still don't clearly understand how we don't have the intel to find some major Terrorist hideouts or locate the people who are funding them. It seems by now in this day and age we can do that, and we probably can but this might be some bullshit cover up by politicians or some of our Generals who have been bought out by Saudis/any other rich/corrupt officials...I'd like to think not. But it makes you wonder.
Don't agree with targetting civilians deliberately. Al Qaeda aren't a Palestinian group either get your facts straight. I am a man of principles - just because your enemy stoops to depraved levels of conduct does not legitimise you doing it. That makes you as bad as them, cedes you the moral high ground and is basically immoral: two wrongs don't make a right.
What about one wrong + inaction?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-05-12 14:18:55
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7002

Kmarion wrote:

What about one wrong + inaction?
What inaction are you talking about?
2007-05-12 14:25:43
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7047|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

What about one wrong + inaction?
What inaction are you talking about?
If you are unwilling to stand down on your principles and address the horrific acts in a manner that will allow the enemy to understand, you might as well fold completely. I'm not advocating it, but rather elaborating on the complexities involved in fighting an enemy that does so unrestricted.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-05-12 14:27:59
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|7002

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

What about one wrong + inaction?
What inaction are you talking about?
If you are unwilling to stand down on your principles and address the horrific acts in a manner that will allow the enemy to understand you might as well fold completely. I'm not advocating it, but rather elaborating on the complexities involved in fighting an enemy that does so unrestricted.
You can fight your enemy without stooping to their level. I don't understand your gripe.
2007-05-12 14:32:15
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7047|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

What inaction are you talking about?
If you are unwilling to stand down on your principles and address the horrific acts in a manner that will allow the enemy to understand you might as well fold completely. I'm not advocating it, but rather elaborating on the complexities involved in fighting an enemy that does so unrestricted.
You can fight your enemy without stooping to their level. I don't understand your gripe.
No you can't. War is a battle of will. Who ever is more willing to do whatever it takes will be victorious. It has always been that way. Now in this age of 24/7 around the clock news coverage what has always been prevalent in warfare has be made known to the general public, and deemed unacceptable to the civilized. The idea of a smart bomb to reduce collateral damage is a joke (militarily speaking). Like I said, the enemies will must be broke in order for them to feel defeated.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-05-12 14:35:03
Mr.Dooomed
Find your center.
+752|6774

CameronPoe wrote:

Don't agree with targetting civilians deliberately. Al Qaeda aren't a Palestinian group either get your facts straight. I am a man of principles - just because your enemy stoops to depraved levels of conduct does not legitimise you doing it. That makes you as bad as them, cedes you the moral high ground and is basically immoral: two wrongs don't make a right.
Agreed, I mistyped. Al'Qaida and Hamas are not connected to Palestine directly, but I am sure the majority of Palestinians support Al'Qaida and Hamas in defeating Israel. And I agree with you that every nation should be free from obression etc. etc.

I wasn't advocating the U.S to start beheading people like Hamas/Al'Qaida do. We fight a politcial war and like in that article Kmarion posted the Generals are just doing their desk job and only want to please politicians. There should be more of a push on fighting the Terrorist orginizations, not by 'stooping' to their level but by doing more then just holding positions in Iraq. They need to do more search and destroy kind of tactics.
Nature is a powerful force. Those who seek to subdue nature, never do so permanently.
2007-05-12 14:46:55
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6937|Menlo Park, CA

ATG wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Now we have bobble-head generals who nod along with the diplomats who want to hold their Versailles Conference before winning the war.

It's past time for our senior leaders to jettison the political correctness and fight to win. But they honestly don't know how anymore. They've been so thoroughly drugged with failed academic theories about counterinsurgency-with-lollipops that they're more concerned with avoiding embarrassments than with killing the enemy.

The bitter truth is that, in the type of conflicts we now face, we must be willing to fight as ruthlessly and savagely as our opponents. We have to play by their moral rules. Stay-at-homes who never served will howl in indignation, but the alternative is defeat.

And is it ever more virtuous to lose to fanatics with apocalyptic visions than to win?

The standard response from the campus commandos is that, if we descend to the level of our enemy's behavior, we'll become as bad as them. That's crap. In World War II, we didn't exactly coddle the residents of Hamburg and Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima.

BAGHDAD BLUES
If this is all true, why not just pack up and leave?

Either way you look at it, there's not much point to staying in Iraq.

Under the current situation, we're too politically correct.  If we follow sheer pragmatism (as I suggested), we'd be gone already.
Wrong. Leaving means failure. It means defeat. It means fighting a larger, bloodier war when these asshole become enboldened.
Exactly!! Leaving doesnt mean failure, IT IS FAILURE! Its surrender, defeat etc.

We cannot embolden our enemies any more than they need to be!! Look at Iran and Syria, they scoff at us anytime they can, look at Iran's posture following the hostage fiasco!!! You thinks things will get better or WORSE if we leave Iraq. . . .

We need to help the Iraqi people defeat these assholes trying to destroy their country! Its imperative that we follow through with our promise!! What credibility do we have left if we adopt the Democrats plan? none. . .

What happens to the innocent people when we leave? mass slaughter is what follows! Just ask the fucking South Vietnamese and the Montenyards people after we bounced from Vietnam! Leaving is foolish and leaves the region in even more chaos then it is in right now. Leaving from Iraq is exactly what the terrorists WANT US TO DO.  Its alows them to dig in and enjoy another regime similar to the Taliban.  Or even worse becomes an Iranian satellite state. . . .none of these senarios are acceptable in anyway shape or form!

 

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