Varegg
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Johann Hari/The Independent: Blair's legacy lies in the Baghdad morgue.

As one who made an equally foolish misjudgement, I've some insight on how his thinking went so wrong

Published: 14 May 2007

As the crowd clapped along to the old back-to-the-Nineties tune of "Things Can Only Get Better" in Trimdon Labour Club, awaiting Tony Blair's swansong, there was a bleaker postscript to the Blair years piling up half a world away.

In Baghdad morgue, these days they separate out the hundreds of Shia bodies and Sunni bodies that are dumped on them every day. It's easy to do: the Shia have been beheaded, while the Sunnis have been tortured to death with power-drills.

I phoned an Iraqi friend in Baghdad whose family was murdered by Saddam. Like me, she supported the war because she thought anything - even an Anglo-American invasion headed by Bush - would be better than Saddam and his sons slaughtering onto the far horizon.

"Oh, is Blair going?" she said acidly. "You know, I'm more worried about the three bodies at the bottom of my street that have been there for a week now. I'm more worried about how I'm going to get through the next day without being killed. I'm really not thinking about Tony Blair. Not ever again."

How did Blair's story end here, with 650,000 dead Iraqis, according to a medical report described by Blair's own scientific advisors as "close to best practice"? As somebody who made an equally foolish misjudgement on Iraq, albeit for very different reasons, I think I have some insight on how Blair's thinking went so wrong.

Tony Blair came to office with very few views about foreign policy. In his Trimdon farewell sonata, he admitted he "came to political maturity at the end of the Cold War". The Cold War defrosted just three years before he became Labour leader.

So his formative foreign policy experience - the place where his whole mindset was smelted - was Kosovo. Like everyone who followed the news, he had been aware throughout the 1990s that the Milosevician forces of Serbian nationalism had been ravaging the Balkans, killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians. The world had offered nothing but a passive shrug. In 1997, with fears that the violence would begin again, Blair had a naive, noble desire to stop Serbian ultra-nationalism in its bloody tracks.

So he did something messy. He coaxed Bill Clinton into acting and started a bombing campaign with an unclear mission, no mandate from the UN until after it had begun, and no plain end in sight. The only core to this action was Blair's belief that Something Must Be Done.

And it sort-of worked. The Albanian refugees got to go home, Milosevic was toppled just months later, and Blair was welcomed on the streets of Kosovo as a liberator-hero. There are messy after-details we rarely discuss: the more than 100,000 Serbs who have been ethnically cleansed have not returned home. But the Balkans are still a somewhat-better place than if Milsoevic had continued unhindered and unhinged.

From this example, Blair inferred a string of general principles, where he proposed to use British military might to stem the oppressions of tyrants. He got an opportunity to flex this belief system in 2000, when he ordered British troops to stop a gang of hand-chopping thugs from seizing power in Sierra Leone. Babies there are still named Tony Blair in thanks.

When it became clear the Bush administration was priming for a show-down with Saddam Hussein, Blair thought his Kosovo approach would work again. Don't worry too much about legality or the UN - it will end with cheers on the streets of Baghdad. The WMD lies were slathered on top, another motive to do The Right Thing.

Where was the flaw? It was in his analysis of American power. In a terrible misjudgement, he projected his own broadly good motives on to an American state with very different purposes, tied to geopolitics and corporate influence. As Dick Cheney said at the time of the 1990-91 Gulf War, "We're there because the fact of the matter is that part of the world controls the world supply of oil."

But Blair knew suprisingly little about American power and its purposes. In a conversation with John Snow, he revealed he had never heard of Mohammed Mossadeq, the democratic leader of Iran who was toppled by the CIA in 1953 because he wanted to control his own country's oil supplies. As recently as 2005, he had never even heard of the Project for a New American Century.

One friend of Blair's recently told me she was shocked in 1997 when she saw Blair welcoming Henry Kissinger into Downing Street and lauding him as a great statesman and friend of democracy. She challenged him over it, but discovered "he just doesn't know about this history - how the Americans toppled democratic governments in Latin America and the Middle East. He really didn't know anything about it. It was shocking."

Here is where Blair's beliefs about foreign policy intersect with the ideas he formed in domestic politics. Tony Blair's core belief is that politics is all about being at the heart of power. In the 1980s, he fought against the Bennite infestation of the Labour Party, and was appalled by followers of a man who proclaimed cheerfully that the Labour Party's 1983 general election catastrophe was "a great victory for socialism" because so many people voted for a "pure" socialist manifesto.

Confronted with people who preferred this impotent moral purity, Blair was determined to be the opposite. As he once put it, "opposition is a waste of time". Wherever there is power, use it. Never back away. So when he came close to US state power, every instinct he had formed in his political life told him to cut away any doubts and embrace the power. To retreat and offer a criticism was contrary to everything he had learned. But to hold together his twin beliefs in his own humanitarianism and in cleaving to power, Blair had to learn a selective blindness towards the actions of the US state. This ability had always been there, enabling him to support deadly sanctions on Iraq or arms deals to foul regimes, but now it became swollen.

He offered weasel words of denial about the US policies of using chemical weapons in Iraq, and would only condemn Guantanamo as "an anomaly". He refused to see how his Coalition of the Willing was really a Coalition of the Drilling, saying it was a "conspiracy theory" to talk about Iraq's oil. His early humanitarianism bled into an unthinking pro-Americanism, and he lost the ability to tell the difference.

And as Iraq descended, he clung to increasingly desperate soundbites to gloss over the tension. He declared that the disasters in Iraq were the work of al-Qa'ida and the Iranian regime, rather than a largely indigenous string of Shia and Sunni insurgencies descending into civil war after Bush-era brutalisation.

And still the drilled and hacked bodies pile up in Baghdad morgue, even more - incredibly - than under the psychotic Saddam. The stench of these corpses will choke discussion of Blair's legacy long into the historical night.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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So he didn`t know this and he didn`t know that, how convenient to be prime minister and be known to history as participator to killing more Iraqis than Saddam, guess the last justification of invading Iraq just slipped ......
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091
650,000 is a bullshit number and everytime i see it being used to back up an argument it completely turns me off to the thread.


its been 650,000 for the last 6 months, think about how stupid is to bring that statistic up.  its only used for its shock value.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-05-14 14:18:43)

Varegg
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GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

650,000 is a bullshit number and everytime i see it being used to back up an argument it completely turns me off to the thread.


its been 650,000 for the last 6 months, think about how stupid is to bring that statistic up.  its only used for its shock value.
And the correct number is ?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091

Varegg wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

650,000 is a bullshit number and everytime i see it being used to back up an argument it completely turns me off to the thread.


its been 650,000 for the last 6 months, think about how stupid is to bring that statistic up.  its only used for its shock value.
And the correct number is ?
nowhere near half a million my friend.


i cant give a good number because i am in no position where those kind of statitisics would be accessible to me.  but Ive repeadetly said this before.  in order for the number to be even close to 650,000, i would have had to witness a blood bath every single day of my year long deployment and that is not so.  the most people I witnessed dying were always after vbied's.  the image of charred and bloody and mutilated bodies being tossed in the back of an ambulance like produce minutes after the the explosion is something that will be engrained in my minds eye for the rest of my life.  i hate seeing dead innocents.  and although i saw many, for that number of 650,000 to be true i didnt see that many.  And i was in baghdad for a huge part of my deployment where the majority of violent acts have taken place since the war started.   no sir, not 650,000.  that is a HUGE number that people cannot really imagine, but it sounds worse than the reality.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-05-14 14:33:41)

Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7213|Cambridge (UK)

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

650,000 is a bullshit number and everytime i see it being used to back up an argument it completely turns me off to the thread.


its been 650,000 for the last 6 months, think about how stupid is to bring that statistic up.  its only used for its shock value.
It's a scientifically obtained figure. All such figures are, by the very nature of the situation, inevitably going to be approximations, but this figured was derived using accepted scientific methods. It may not be 100% accurate, but it is the best figure we have.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7096

650k does sound rediculously high, I mean that's about 450 people killed a day. I don't think that many people ever died in a day. I may be wrong on this, but wasn't that bomb that killed about 200 people the highest they've had?
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Varegg wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

650,000 is a bullshit number and everytime i see it being used to back up an argument it completely turns me off to the thread.


its been 650,000 for the last 6 months, think about how stupid is to bring that statistic up.  its only used for its shock value.
And the correct number is ?
nowhere near half a million my friend.
Now that didn`t exactly clear things up Slinga, and the number 650.000 is apparetly coming from Blairs own people - are you telling me they mess with information intentionally as a part of an hidden agenda. ? (not so hidden come think of it)
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7213|Cambridge (UK)
Gunslinger: It is scientific.

(in response to karma message from 'GS' (which I assume is Gunslinger))

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-05-14 14:39:07)

GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091
just because they were english doesnt mean that they represented the government. 



"The Lancet is one of the oldest peer-reviewed medical journals in the world, published weekly by Elsevier, part of Reed Elsevier. It was founded in 1823 by Thomas Wakley, who named it after the surgical instrument called a lancet, as well as an arched window ("to let in light")."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet … l_articles


and further more

"The UK government, too, rejected the researchers' conclusions....."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_sur … Criticisms


sure you dont wanna change that answer?
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
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GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

sure you dont wanna change that answer?
If that's a question to me - yep, I'm sure.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Gunslinger: It is scientific.

(in response to karma message from 'GS' (which I assume is Gunslinger))
from the same wikipedia article

"Professors Sean Gourley and Neil Johnson of the physics department at Oxford University and Professor Michael Spagat of the economics department of Royal Holloway, University of London, claimed the methodology of the study was fundamentally flawed by what they term "main street bias". They claimed the sampling methods used "will result in an over-estimation of the death toll in Iraq" because "by sampling only cross streets which are more accessible, you get an over-estimation of deaths."[47]

These professors have published a detailed paper discussing this bias and the Lancet study called "Conflict Mortality Studies".[48] A critical summary of their paper on the Deltoid ScienceBlog identifies the four variables on which their analysis depends.[49] An article in Science magazine by John Bohannon describes some of their criticisms, as well as some responses from Lancet's lead author Gilbert Burnham: 'The [Lancet] paper indicates that the survey team avoided small back alleys for safety reasons. But this could bias the data because deaths from car bombs, street-market explosions, and shootings from vehicles should be more likely on larger streets, says Johnson. According to Bohannon, Burnham counters that such streets were included and that the methods section of the published paper is oversimplified. Bohannon also alleged that Burnham told Science that he does not know exactly how the Iraqi team conducted its survey; the details about neighborhoods surveyed were destroyed "in case they fell into the wrong hands and could increase the risks to residents." These explanations have infuriated the study's critics. Michael Spagat, an economist at Royal Holloway, University of London, who specializes in civil conflicts, says the scientific community should call for an in-depth investigation into the researchers' procedures. "It is almost a crime to let it go unchallenged," adds Johnson."
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

sure you dont wanna change that answer?
If that's a question to me - yep, I'm sure.
no, not to you.  to varegg who claims the UK government backs up the research when it clearly doesnt.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091
please understand.  I was never for the invasion of Iraq.  never and ive said it numerous times.  but im not gonna jump on a peice of bullshit just so to support my opinions.  at the same time im not gonna lie about my time in that warzone in order to honor my dead and the dead of iraq.  to LIE is to dishonor all memories.  no way fricking possible 650,000 is accurate.  this is coming from somebody who had to clean the road wheels of my bradley from human remains.  i would not lie about this shit.


Iraq is more than debate topic for me my friend.

you dont need to spout out ludicrous numbers of civilian deaths to back up an argument on the wrongness of the Iraq invasion.  one is enough.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-05-14 14:50:37)

Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

sure you dont wanna change that answer?
If that's a question to me - yep, I'm sure.
no, not to you.  to varegg who claims the UK government backs up the research when it clearly doesnt.
650,000 dead Iraqis, according to a medical report described by Blair's own scientific advisors as "close to best practice"?

Get your facts straight, i didn`t make that claim.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091

Varegg wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

If that's a question to me - yep, I'm sure.
no, not to you.  to varegg who claims the UK government backs up the research when it clearly doesnt.
650,000 dead Iraqis, according to a medical report described by Blair's own scientific advisors as "close to best practice"?

Get your facts straight, i didn`t make that claim.
as far as i know,  650,000 figure is only been given by the lancet survey.  Ive already shown you a source where the UK government  disputes the lancet survey.   who else is claiming 650,000?  if lancet is the only one then you my dear fellow are incorrect.  or more accuartely, your source is full of shit.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-05-14 14:56:01)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6976|Global Command
Cut and paste only OPs fail.

But I see you agree with CNN about Bush resigning.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
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GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Varegg wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:


no, not to you.  to varegg who claims the UK government backs up the research when it clearly doesnt.
650,000 dead Iraqis, according to a medical report described by Blair's own scientific advisors as "close to best practice"?

Get your facts straight, i didn`t make that claim.
as far as i know,  650,000 figure is only been given by the lancet survey.  Ive already shown you a source where the UK government  disputes the lancet survey.   who else is claiming 650,000?  if lancet is the only one then you my dear fellow are incorrect.
The figure might be incorrect but still my name is not Hari and i didn`t write the article, i`ve also seen that number listed several times and was baffled by it size, but when encountered by Blair's own scientific advisors it has a nicer ring to it - and can the actual number be way off ?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
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New Scientist wrote:

Winning the war for Iraq's dead

Counting the dead in war zones is what epidemiologist Gilbert Burnham and his team do for a living. But last year when they said 600,000-plus Iraqis had been killed in the war, the US, UK and Iraqi governments furiously attacked their figures for being far too high - though it turns out that UK experts agree with Burnham. Celeste Biever caught up with him recently.

There were already estimates of the dead in Iraq. Why did you decide to go ahead with your survey?
Our intentions were not political. Our center is for refugee and disaster studies and this is simply the kind of thing that we do. Other counts, such as the Iraq Body Count, which consists of volunteer academics and activists based int he UK and the US, rely on reports of deaths in the English-language press, but the press is in the business of producing news, not statistics. The IBC uses news reports mainly written in English, by people who can't leave a very narrow area of Baghdad, while violence is worse in the Al Anbar and Diyala provinces. Mortuaries provide figures but a lot of bodies don't make it there. Also press accounts and mortuary numbers record violent deaths, but people die in war from many causes.

Your figure was an order of magnitude higher than the IBC's. Why should we trust your method?
Because it's probably the best one for measuring the burden of conflict on the population. It's used worldwide: in the Congo, in Banda Aceh after the Asian tsunami, for mortality data in Darfur, Angola and Uganda. And one of my former students, Paul Spiegel, used the technique to measure Serb activies against the Albanians in Kosovo. It was used as evidence in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.

Why do think the survey has been criticised?
These are unpleasant results, and they are associated with a war that has seriously divided the countries participating. Some people felt that we were not supporting the troops and were unpatriotic. I am not angry about that. As malicious as some of the hate mail I recieved is, I can see their point of view because I was in the military, in a combat unit in Korea during Vietnam. These soldiers in Iraq are volunteers, by and large, with good intentions, and they find themselves in a very difficult environment. As epidemiologists, we can produce the numbers, a good explanation for our methods and even a pretty storng statement on what they mean, but getting them accepted in policy circles and people's thinking takes time and is often difficult.

How did it feel to have the president attack you?
It's not surprising to get criticism from people closely identified with the war. On the other hand, public health research often send people to sleep so it was gratifying in an odd way to be associated with research that grabbed attention, especially heads of state.

You've said you will release the raw data to scientific groups who apply, "scrubbed" of the neighbourhoods where it was collected to avoid identifying the interviewees. Will this help?
I don't know. Much of the criticism is based on unhappiness with the results. A repeat analysis won't turn the figure from 600,000 to 60,000. Our intent is to be more transparent. We believe we will see numbers that are fairly consistent with ours. I received a lot of supportive emails from people who admired the courage of the team so I think many people already believe our figure.

What was your methodology?
We did a "cluster" survey, where we divided the country into clusters, picked a certain number from each province at random and sent Iraqi doctors to knock on doors in those clusters to ask how many people in each houshold (who had lived there at least three months) had died from any cause. We used that to produce a death rate for the clusters and then the population of the whole country. The key is to try to be sure that you talk to enough people and you don't have biases in the selection.

How did Iraqis react to the interviewers?
The general sense the interviewers had was that people were happy to talk to them. They felt gratified that someone was asking and were eager to talk about their experiences.

Could you trust what people told interviewers?
Peope might forget exact dates, but death is a big event, so they don't tend to forget that. To double-check, our interviewers asked for death certificates. Ninety per cent of the people who were asked produced them. Of course, a certificate doesn't stop you hiding deaths: one could imagine households might be reluctant to mention it if someone got killed while involved in criminal activity or sectarian volence. But then the result would be an underestimate, not an overestimate.

Were there things you wanted to know you couldn't get the interviewers to ask?
We were afraid that, for example, to ask how people dies as it might have made us look like we were representing a group looking for targets - and that could have endangered the interviewers. We also did not distinguish non-combatants from active combatants because asking that question was far too sensitive.

Were there other limits on your methodology?
Concern for the saftey of our interviewers helped determine survey design. Coming up with a death estimate per governorate would have been the best but it would have required more clusters, and since each cluster has a risk associated with it we opted for a national figure. Also, we couldn't use GPS devices as we had in 2004, where we randomly selected a GPS coordinate in each cluster and used that house as a start point. With more car bombs being set off remotely, the team was concerned that if they were spotted holding a GPS receiver their life expectancy would be fairly short.

What did you do instead?
We went back to what we did before GPS. The interviewers wrote the prinicple streets in a cluster on pieces of paper and randomly selected one. They walked down that street, wrote down the surrounding residential streets and randomly picked one. Finally, they walked down the selected street, numbered them and used a random number table to pick one. That was our starting house, and the interviewers knocked on doors until they'd surveyed 40 households. It was more complicated than using GPS but not inferior: the results were very close to the GPS survey. The team took care to destroy the pieces of paper which could have identified households if interviewers were searched at checkpoints.

Why didn't you accompany the interviewers?
I don't speak Arabic and I don't look like an Iraqi, so my chances of surviving very long were not strong. Our Iraqi colleagues said it would endanger them too. We met in Jordan to design the survey, at the end to begin analysis, and kept email and phone contact during.

Were the interviewers willing to risk their lives?
The knew there was a risk. Some dropped out before we started, but once we got started, everybody stuck it out. There was a strong feeling of professionalism, an I take my hat off to them. These were the most courageous peopl in the whole operation. The rest of us took flak for the survey, but that's nothing comapred to their courage. We were very worried about someone dying. We took all the safeguards we could, and I tracked what was happening very closely throughout the three months it took. I remember the day word came back we had finished the last cluster and all eight interviewers, their supervisor and drivers were back safely. I was just elated.
Source: New Scientist - No2600 - 21st April 2007 - p44, p45. (Any typos, errors or ommisions are mine (and yes, I did just type that out straight from the article (phew my hands ache now.)))

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-05-14 15:38:05)

rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|7007
It's a new day and age when a terrorist can kill scores of people and have the blaim be put on someone else. Thank you all for washing the hands of the murderes and for accusing those who are dying for the freedom of others.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7028|SE London

I agree that the Lancet study is untrustworthy.

I'd be more inclined to think the figure was somewhere in the magnitude of 4-5x the number of reported casualties. Which would make it about half the figure given by the Lancet.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7213|Cambridge (UK)

Bertster7 wrote:

I agree that the Lancet study is untrustworthy.
See my previous post.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

I agree that the Lancet study is untrustworthy.
See my previous post.
my own two eye are the best source for me.  sadly you cant believe me though.  but my personal encounters defeat your study.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7213|Cambridge (UK)

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

I agree that the Lancet study is untrustworthy.
See my previous post.
my own two eye are the best source for me.  sadly you cant believe me though.  but my personal encounters defeat your study.
Not my study - the study carried out by an epidemiologist who's job it is to do studies of this kind. Their objective scientific expertise defeats your subjective personal encounters.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-05-14 17:15:14)

GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7091
you cant be very subjective about the amount of dead iraqi bodies you see

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