Atheist, I've got nothing against religious people, I just really don't like it when they try to convert me or tell me I'm going to hell for some reason, or they're fanatical.
I am a Bahá'í and I would like to know what you mean by 'idiots'. All I can say is that there's no intelligence test you have to take if you want to be a Bahá'í so of course we have idiots as well. Idiots make up about 50% of the world population so you're bound to find them anywhere. But if you imply that the faith itself makes them idiots, I'd like to see this explained a bit further.Braddock wrote:
All I know is that the Bahá'í people I worked with for a while were a couple of idiots! The principles of the faith seem fairly sound but it's the same as any other faith, you can either choose to believe in some sort of greater omniscient being or just choose to be content with the magnificence and awe of the universe as it is without attributing it to some sort of deity. I opt for the latter, it's too easy to just say 'God made everything' and stick to that throughout your life; I'd rather go through life living by morals that I rationally consider to be correct and just and if there is a God at the end of it all I'd hope s/he is one that does not reward ignorance and appreciates an inquisitive mind (otherwise I'm not sure I'd want a place in his heaven).AudioAtomica wrote:
I searched and didn't find anything, so sorry if this or something close to this has been posted before.
I've seen alot of different opinions on alot of things on this forum recently, and I'm curious as to what faith you all follow.
In which religion do you place your faith?
Why?
If you don't place your faith in a religion, why not?
For how long have you been apart of your current religion?
Do you go to worship?
What do you do to worship? (Pray, pilgrimage etc)
I've always had a thing for going to books stores for a Bukowski or something and ended up walking out with 6-7 books on various religions. I never felt I fit right with any of them, even though I understand being of a certain religion doesn't bind you to any of their beliefs perse, but I felt my connection with God should be more than half-assed. And I've recently come across The BaHa'i Faith ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith ). I'm currently looking for a local place of worship for the BaHa'i Faith, so I can consult people of that faith to learn more about it. I also plan on becoming a Freemason, because I hear and read this and that, from conspiracies of world domination, to secret societies, to anti-christianism etc. I so I'm going to find out for myself I guess.
Even though I'm not in a religion, I still have my morals, and Faith in God, and mankind. I've never worshiped, as in on my knees, praying, but I feel (through my own personal faith) being a positive and productive person far beyond reaches that of trying to reach God directly by praying. And in that sense, I worship damn near 24/7
I was raised catholic and appreciate catholicism's universal concepts of right and wrong and have read a fair bit on Budhism, which has many interesting concepts but I don't believe in a God in the traditional sense and do not subscribe to any particular faith.
Don't worry, you'd be okay in our book. In fact, one of our great principles is that of the "independent search for the truth". If you'd look a bit deeper into the matter, you'd find that the Bahá'í faith differs from the other religions quite a lot in this aspect.I'd rather go through life living by morals that I rationally consider to be correct and just and if there is a God at the end of it all I'd hope s/he is one that does not reward ignorance and appreciates an inquisitive mind (otherwise I'm not sure I'd want a place in his heaven).
Last edited by LaidBackNinja (2007-05-16 13:25:50)
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
You discussed the passage and conveniently left out the killer blow so to speak! Jesus was not down with accumulated wealth, he was very keen on it being distributed to the poor, in fact, he pretty much demanded it as prerequisite to being his "follower". It always amazes me how people see their obscene richness as being evidence of a blessing from God, yet they very conveniently forget that the "real" test is in giving it away to the poor & the consequences of failing to do so.Stingray24 wrote:
I discussed the majority of the passage in post #26, but I'll try to rephrase. It is much easier to understand and more accurate to discuss verses in their context rather than to look at them on their own. Jesus' disciples probably saw money as a sign of the blessing of God in their culture. Jesus was pointing out that a love of wealth may create temptations that many cannot resist. I would also point out He said it would be "hard" not impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.IG-Calibre wrote:
So then why do you think jesus said"Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
I was baptized Catholic and raised in a Protestant church. I do not attend church regularly but have a deep and strong belief in God. I've researched many religions and found many similarities. I will agree with most if not all of you who believe Religion has been the root of many if not all wars and conflicts. If you look deeper into this you will see it is not the religion itself, but the fear of man that he or his religion will be overcome by another religion. Fear is man's greatest enemy. This statement holds even more truth today than it ever did.
Last edited by GATOR591957 (2007-05-16 13:48:07)
Yea, but what do you really think.....loltopal63 wrote:
I am a Christian agnostic atheist. I believe in the value of tradition and symbolism, yet I do not ascribe even a minimal amount of certainty to any mythological tradition (including the tradition I was raised in). I am symbolically Christian with personally modified beliefs (based upon knowledge of psychology, other mythology, comparative religious study, biology, physical-natural sciences, etc), I am agnostic to the abstract concept of God, and an atheist to all mythology as a literal happenstance.
In which religion do you place your faith?
On paper i am Church Of England.
Why?
Cos i was Cristened as such.
If you don't place your faith in a religion, why not?
In reality i believe none of the tosh, IMHO religion is a load of bollox that anyone who falls for is a mug.
For how long have you been apart of your current religion?
Lifetime (apart from funerals etc)
Do you go to worship?
Nope
What do you do to worship? (Pray, pilgrimage etc)
N/A
On paper i am Church Of England.
Why?
Cos i was Cristened as such.
If you don't place your faith in a religion, why not?
In reality i believe none of the tosh, IMHO religion is a load of bollox that anyone who falls for is a mug.
For how long have you been apart of your current religion?
Lifetime (apart from funerals etc)
Do you go to worship?
Nope
What do you do to worship? (Pray, pilgrimage etc)
N/A
This is like the Freudian concept of sexuality to an infant.topal63 wrote:
I am a Christian agnostic atheist. I believe in the value of tradition and symbolism, yet I do not ascribe even a minimal amount of certainty to any mythological tradition (including the tradition I was raised in). I am symbolically Christian with personally modified beliefs (based upon knowledge of psychology, other mythology, comparative religious study, biology, physical-natural sciences, etc), I am agnostic to the abstract concept of God, and an atheist to all mythology as a literal happenstance.
AudioAtomica wrote:
In which religion do you place your faith?
None
Why?
Religion is the illusion and set of beliefs that bring together minds which seek out or want their to be something higher to look toward
If you don't place your faith in a religion, why not?
The above, and also the fact that religions can cause extremeists to do extreme acts in the name of their particular divinity, and I dont like the idea of having people of religious significance looking down on me or the idea that their is a God which watches over us and commands worship yet has done nothing in return to deserve it, due to our existance being an anomoly, nothing more
For how long have you been apart of your current religion?
Since birth
Do you go to worship?
No
What do you do to worship? (Pray, pilgrimage etc)
I live life and dont let any ancient text dictate what i can or cannot do or what i should or should not do, i made my own morals and beliefs and i'l be damned if they arent concrete and good for society
The Bahá'í factor wasn't what made these two people I knew idiots, they were just pretty pretentious and I got the impression that the whole Bahá'í thing was part of some show or display that they put on for everyone. They were a couple and the guy kept name dropping the religion at every opportunity. He took her religion when they married, I got the impression his heart wasn't really in it but he liked the kudos of having a 'cool' faith. She seemed damn high maintenance to me, she didn't seem very down to earth or spiritual ...she only ever drank champagne and completely lived off her hubby, which was tough on him because as I understand it they donated a certain amount of HIS income (she didn't earn anything) to their religion every year (I dunno if this is standard Bahá'í practice or not?)LaidBackNinja wrote:
I am a Bahá'í and I would like to know what you mean by 'idiots'. All I can say is that there's no intelligence test you have to take if you want to be a Bahá'í so of course we have idiots as well. Idiots make up about 50% of the world population so you're bound to find them anywhere. But if you imply that the faith itself makes them idiots, I'd like to see this explained a bit further.Braddock wrote:
All I know is that the Bahá'í people I worked with for a while were a couple of idiots! The principles of the faith seem fairly sound but it's the same as any other faith, you can either choose to believe in some sort of greater omniscient being or just choose to be content with the magnificence and awe of the universe as it is without attributing it to some sort of deity. I opt for the latter, it's too easy to just say 'God made everything' and stick to that throughout your life; I'd rather go through life living by morals that I rationally consider to be correct and just and if there is a God at the end of it all I'd hope s/he is one that does not reward ignorance and appreciates an inquisitive mind (otherwise I'm not sure I'd want a place in his heaven).AudioAtomica wrote:
I searched and didn't find anything, so sorry if this or something close to this has been posted before.
I've seen alot of different opinions on alot of things on this forum recently, and I'm curious as to what faith you all follow.
In which religion do you place your faith?
Why?
If you don't place your faith in a religion, why not?
For how long have you been apart of your current religion?
Do you go to worship?
What do you do to worship? (Pray, pilgrimage etc)
I've always had a thing for going to books stores for a Bukowski or something and ended up walking out with 6-7 books on various religions. I never felt I fit right with any of them, even though I understand being of a certain religion doesn't bind you to any of their beliefs perse, but I felt my connection with God should be more than half-assed. And I've recently come across The BaHa'i Faith ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith ). I'm currently looking for a local place of worship for the BaHa'i Faith, so I can consult people of that faith to learn more about it. I also plan on becoming a Freemason, because I hear and read this and that, from conspiracies of world domination, to secret societies, to anti-christianism etc. I so I'm going to find out for myself I guess.
Even though I'm not in a religion, I still have my morals, and Faith in God, and mankind. I've never worshiped, as in on my knees, praying, but I feel (through my own personal faith) being a positive and productive person far beyond reaches that of trying to reach God directly by praying. And in that sense, I worship damn near 24/7
I was raised catholic and appreciate catholicism's universal concepts of right and wrong and have read a fair bit on Budhism, which has many interesting concepts but I don't believe in a God in the traditional sense and do not subscribe to any particular faith.Don't worry, you'd be okay in our book. In fact, one of our great principles is that of the "independent search for the truth". If you'd look a bit deeper into the matter, you'd find that the Bahá'í faith differs from the other religions quite a lot in this aspect.I'd rather go through life living by morals that I rationally consider to be correct and just and if there is a God at the end of it all I'd hope s/he is one that does not reward ignorance and appreciates an inquisitive mind (otherwise I'm not sure I'd want a place in his heaven).
There is a recognised Bahá'í place of worship in Dublin too apparently.
EDIT: In reference to your last comment, I understand how the Bahá'í faith welcomes more scrutinising of the facts and truth in its practice and I appreciate that but I personally don't feel the need in my life to categorise myself or align myself with a group or collective faith to be spiritually in tune with myself and the world. Wherever I go spiritually in this life I honestly don't think I'll ever go back to organised religion in any form, I just don't see the need. I guess you could say I'm an 'individualist'.
Last edited by Braddock (2007-05-16 15:41:49)
Buddhism and abit of Hinduism but really......nothing. Not even Atheism as i don't know what to think so, nothing. Just trying to live a decent life, letting people believe in what they want and not being a fucktard about it unless it affects me.
"*Buzzer* WRONG! *Buzzer*"Vilham wrote:
*Buzzer* WRONG! *Buzzer*
With an all knowing god their is no such thing as freewill. It is impossible. God knows before you are born what ever action you do will be, as as an all knowing god he knows past present and future. This means your choices are already known.
Another thing to consider when looking at that is that if there is a god he must infact be evil or have morals that no human can comprehend. He lets people being born KNOWING that they will go to hell. How can anyone worship that?
This ofc only applies to the believe of an all knowing god, such as Christian god. Base on the fact that a god is the ultimate being it must be all knowing. Therefore I can happily say that this applies to ALL religions.
No one said anything about an 'All Knowing God".
Lawls, You should never assume anything there pal because
Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME.
But thanks for that, I 'lol'ed pretty hard.
Last edited by AudioAtomica (2007-05-16 16:38:21)
Humans are an incredible anomaly to be sure.
I always find it interesting that many people find it is easier to believe in magical mutations, than a magical God. Both are, quite frankly, difficult for me to grasp logically.
Based on feelings and personal experinces and countless "coincidences" I am a Christian. I go to a Mormon church on Sundays, and read scriptures and pray everyday. However, the only kind of "worship" I do that means anything is that I do my best to help and serve those around me.
I always find it interesting that many people find it is easier to believe in magical mutations, than a magical God. Both are, quite frankly, difficult for me to grasp logically.
Based on feelings and personal experinces and countless "coincidences" I am a Christian. I go to a Mormon church on Sundays, and read scriptures and pray everyday. However, the only kind of "worship" I do that means anything is that I do my best to help and serve those around me.
ExactlyXanKrieger wrote:
AudioAtomica wrote:
In which religion do you place your faith?
None
Why?
Religion is the illusion and set of beliefs that bring together minds which seek out or want their to be something higher to look toward
If you don't place your faith in a religion, why not?
The above, and also the fact that religions can cause extremeists to do extreme acts in the name of their particular divinity, and I dont like the idea of having people of religious significance looking down on me or the idea that their is a God which watches over us and commands worship yet has done nothing in return to deserve it, due to our existance being an anomoly, nothing more
For how long have you been apart of your current religion?
Since birth
Do you go to worship?
No
What do you do to worship? (Pray, pilgrimage etc)
I live life and dont let any ancient text dictate what i can or cannot do or what i should or should not do, i made my own morals and beliefs and i'l be damned if they arent concrete and good for society
I believe in 7.62 & 11.43
I left out nothing, IG-Calibre. You are correct that if a person sees their wealth as a gift from God, by natural extension they should give to those less fortunate. Since they’ve been blessed with material things, God does expect that they should pass it on as a demonstration of God’s love. However, you'd be mistaken to assume that giving money is the only thing required to become a follower. If that was true, then Jesus would have said it was impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. He did not, though, instead saying it was "hard".IG-Calibre wrote:
You discussed the passage and conveniently left out the killer blow so to speak! Jesus was not down with accumulated wealth, he was very keen on it being distributed to the poor, in fact, he pretty much demanded it as prerequisite to being his "follower". It always amazes me how people see their obscene richness as being evidence of a blessing from God, yet they very conveniently forget that the "real" test is in giving it away to the poor & the consequences of failing to do so.Stingray24 wrote:
I discussed the majority of the passage in post #26, but I'll try to rephrase. It is much easier to understand and more accurate to discuss verses in their context rather than to look at them on their own. Jesus' disciples probably saw money as a sign of the blessing of God in their culture. Jesus was pointing out that a love of wealth may create temptations that many cannot resist. I would also point out He said it would be "hard" not impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.IG-Calibre wrote:
So then why do you think jesus said
Atheist. Never needed religion, never wanted it, never regretted it.
Yes, Jesus said you can't serve both mammon (Hebrew for wealth, or material) and God. Money, wealth, power, privileged, and other nice things in this life, in itself, are not bad. When they control us, and they usually do, then they become a sin. When God blesses us with money, is is so we can give more of it away, but most people use it on themselves. God won't force you to use it the way he wants you to, but that's his intention... he blesses others so they may share. It's why I think most able nations could be doing a lot better in feeding the poor and giving aid to those in needs.Stingray24 wrote:
You're correct, Havok. The passage you quoted is in Matthew and in it a young wealthy man approached Jesus and asked what good thing he had to do to gain eternal life. First problem: he thought he could earn eternal life by doing good works. His focus was on his own ability rather than faith and belief. Jesus recognized this, which is why He also told the wealthy young man to obey the commandments, knowing he'd check that off his list. Sure enough, the young man replied he had kept them all from his youth. However, when Jesus asked him to give up his wealth, the young man walked away sad. Through this conversation Jesus illustrated a crucial point: gaining eternal life is not something gained by anything we could ever do, instead it is by faith and belief. The young man’s primary focus in the end was his riches, not his faith, and that was his problem. He was focused on doing on the outside instead of an internal change of heart.
I don’t believe the passage means that money and wealth is evil. Both are fine when in their proper perspective. However, if I focus my whole existence on money and wealth, I could easily ignore God and lose my primary focus on God.
True followers of Christ are not judged by their material possessions or the lack thereof, so I'm a bit puzzled why you feel true followers must not have money. Private schools cost money because they are not funded by the government. Hence the parents who choose to send their children must pay the entire cost. My father made about 20K per year and we attended a private Christian school. Don't believe all the stereotypes.
But, the point you said about losing focus is an important one. There are a lot of things in this life that, I think, are meant to be enjoyed because it's a blessing. But sometimes they can cause us to stumble, and they can consume us. Now they become a sin. And, I often believe having less is more of a blessing than having more, simply because of how humans fall so easily into mammon. Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out, for it is better to enter heaven with one eye than go to hell with both. Jesus does not really mean to gouge your very own eye out, but to depart from whatever is causing you to sin. If you look at pornography, and you can't control yourself, then put it in a public setting, disable your internet connection, or don't use it anymore if it's that bad.
Wait you're Mormon? Not to be offensive, but Mormons are not Christians.weamo8 wrote:
Humans are an incredible anomaly to be sure.
I always find it interesting that many people find it is easier to believe in magical mutations, than a magical God. Both are, quite frankly, difficult for me to grasp logically.
Based on feelings and personal experinces and countless "coincidences" I am a Christian. I go to a Mormon church on Sundays, and read scriptures and pray everyday. However, the only kind of "worship" I do that means anything is that I do my best to help and serve those around me.
AudioAtomica wrote:
In which religion do you place your faith?
Paganism.
Why?
Though I was raised a Christian (Methodist), I always had beliefs that I didn't share with the others. When I was four, for instance, I thought God must have had a wife (a Goddess, if you will) as living for an eternity alone would be miserable. Besides, if you are all powerful, why not create something for companionship? Later, I realized without a doubt the presence of magick, when I dreamed of a traumatic event to take place a year from then. I shrugged it off, even though the dream was very disturbing -- I shrugged it off until it happened.
If you don't place your faith in a religion, why not?
For how long have you been apart of your current religion?
Officially, about 5 years now. Though before then I believed, just didn't know what to call it aside from "heretical Christianity".
Do you go to worship?
No. I bring the worship to me.
What do you do to worship? (Pray, pilgrimage etc)
Pray, perform rituals, use my will.
Mormons believe in God and Jesus. Belief in Jesus as the "lord and savior" is the tenets of Christianity.Phrozenbot wrote:
Wait you're Mormon? Not to be offensive, but Mormons are not Christians.weamo8 wrote:
Humans are an incredible anomaly to be sure.
I always find it interesting that many people find it is easier to believe in magical mutations, than a magical God. Both are, quite frankly, difficult for me to grasp logically.
Based on feelings and personal experinces and countless "coincidences" I am a Christian. I go to a Mormon church on Sundays, and read scriptures and pray everyday. However, the only kind of "worship" I do that means anything is that I do my best to help and serve those around me.
So... um... how are Mormons not Christian? Is it because they wear funny underwear?
No, really... I'm curious to see why you think this, I always just assumed they were.
They take a weird spin off Christianity... but I guess by definition they would be.. kinda?Anfidurl wrote:
Mormons believe in God and Jesus. Belief in Jesus as the "lord and savior" is the tenets of Christianity.Phrozenbot wrote:
Wait you're Mormon? Not to be offensive, but Mormons are not Christians.weamo8 wrote:
Humans are an incredible anomaly to be sure.
I always find it interesting that many people find it is easier to believe in magical mutations, than a magical God. Both are, quite frankly, difficult for me to grasp logically.
Based on feelings and personal experinces and countless "coincidences" I am a Christian. I go to a Mormon church on Sundays, and read scriptures and pray everyday. However, the only kind of "worship" I do that means anything is that I do my best to help and serve those around me.
So... um... how are Mormons not Christian? Is it because they wear funny underwear?
No, really... I'm curious to see why you think this, I always just assumed they were.
However, I laugh when people make fun of Mormons, because while that religion makes absolutely no sense... it makes just about as much sense as all of the others..
Mormons are quite different from mainstream Christianity. They do not believe Jesus was God, but instead that He was a created being.Anfidurl wrote:
Mormons believe in God and Jesus. Belief in Jesus as the "lord and savior" is the tenets of Christianity.Phrozenbot wrote:
Wait you're Mormon? Not to be offensive, but Mormons are not Christians.weamo8 wrote:
Humans are an incredible anomaly to be sure.
I always find it interesting that many people find it is easier to believe in magical mutations, than a magical God. Both are, quite frankly, difficult for me to grasp logically.
Based on feelings and personal experinces and countless "coincidences" I am a Christian. I go to a Mormon church on Sundays, and read scriptures and pray everyday. However, the only kind of "worship" I do that means anything is that I do my best to help and serve those around me.
So... um... how are Mormons not Christian? Is it because they wear funny underwear?
No, really... I'm curious to see why you think this, I always just assumed they were.
Coincidentally every fact you posted is the same for me.RedTwizzler wrote:
AthiesmAudioAtomica wrote:
In which religion do you place your faith?I became very disillusioned by religion at a young age. I questioned why, if there was a god, people died in horrible ways, wars occurred, etc. I also questioned the proof of a god's existence, which was pretty much responded to in a single-minded fashion, i.e. "How can we prove there is a god?" "Because who else could have created everything so perfect like you?"Why?Oh, whoops. I guess you don't consider Athiesm a religion. I'll keep going, though.If you don't place your faith in a religion, why not?I have been a self-proclaimed athiest since age 12. However, as I said, I felt very disillusioned with religion as early as age 7.For how long have you been apart of your current religion?I don't.Do you go to worship?I don't.What do you do to worship? (Pray, pilgrimage etc)
Yes, and that he is the brother of the Devil. It is made clear in the Bible that if you don't have the Son, you don't have the Father, and if you don't have the Father, you don't have God. So, their god isn't the Christian God, because he is a false graven image. Why does Paul tell us to make sure we are praying to the right God?Stingray24 wrote:
Mormons are quite different from mainstream Christianity. They do not believe Jesus was God, but instead that He was a created being.Anfidurl wrote:
Mormons believe in God and Jesus. Belief in Jesus as the "lord and savior" is the tenets of Christianity.Phrozenbot wrote:
Wait you're Mormon? Not to be offensive, but Mormons are not Christians.
So... um... how are Mormons not Christian? Is it because they wear funny underwear?
No, really... I'm curious to see why you think this, I always just assumed they were.
i'm not saying that, you saidStingray24 wrote:
I left out nothing, IG-Calibre. You are correct that if a person sees their wealth as a gift from God, by natural extension they should give to those less fortunate. Since they’ve been blessed with material things, God does expect that they should pass it on as a demonstration of God’s love. However, you'd be mistaken to assume that giving money is the only thing required to become a follower. If that was true, then Jesus would have said it was impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. He did not, though, instead saying it was "hard".IG-Calibre wrote:
You discussed the passage and conveniently left out the killer blow so to speak! Jesus was not down with accumulated wealth, he was very keen on it being distributed to the poor, in fact, he pretty much demanded it as prerequisite to being his "follower". It always amazes me how people see their obscene richness as being evidence of a blessing from God, yet they very conveniently forget that the "real" test is in giving it away to the poor & the consequences of failing to do so.Stingray24 wrote:
I discussed the majority of the passage in post #26, but I'll try to rephrase. It is much easier to understand and more accurate to discuss verses in their context rather than to look at them on their own. Jesus' disciples probably saw money as a sign of the blessing of God in their culture. Jesus was pointing out that a love of wealth may create temptations that many cannot resist. I would also point out He said it would be "hard" not impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus does not once mention Faith, or, belief to enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact he clearly instructs:However, when Jesus asked him to give up his wealth, the young man walked away sad. Through this conversation Jesus illustrated a crucial point: gaining eternal life is not something gained by anything we could ever do, instead it is by faith and belief.
& to be perfect, give up material wealth and give it to the poor . It's intersting to note when they asked "which" commandments to keep, Jesus didn't reply "all of them dude" he specifically does not mention "You shall have no other gods before Me." "You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain." nor does he command him to keep holy the Sabbath - that would seem to indicate to me that Jesus does not demand Faith nor belief to enter the kingdom of heaven... If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 18He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19Honour your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbour as yourself."
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2007-05-17 03:44:22)