Maybe the LDS got it wrong.
Poll
Do you consider "Mormons" Christians?
| Yes | 29% | 29% - 50 | ||||
| No | 47% | 47% - 82 | ||||
| What the hell is a Mormon? | 23% | 23% - 40 | ||||
| Total: 172 | ||||||
Assuming you are referencing the Catholic Church's view of Protestants, that is not true. Vatican II basically clarified that Protestants are not "fully incorporated" into the Church.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
And don't forget that protestants are still considered heretics.
This is why a Protestant can now marry a Catholic in a Catholic church.
Didn't say by who.OrangeHound wrote:
Assuming you are referencing the Catholic Church's view of Protestants, that is not true. Vatican II basically clarified that Protestants are not "fully incorporated" into the Church.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
And don't forget that protestants are still considered heretics.
This is why a Protestant can now marry a Catholic in a Catholic church.
South Park says they're right.ATG wrote:
Maybe the LDS got it wrong.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-05-18 20:35:00)
YES THEY ARE!!!!unnamednewbie13 wrote:
The FLDS is not affiliated with the LDS. They split off from the mainstream Mormons earlier last century. They have a different leader and everything.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Sorry dude, they are one and the same. The only difference is that the FLDS (Fundamentalist Latter Days Saints) still adhere to the old ways of the LDS faith.weamo8 wrote:
ATG was talking about Mormons, not the FLDS. That is like saying the Lutherins broke off from the Cathlics so they are the same thing.
LDS=Mormon
They are nothing but Mormons that are following the old ways. The one, and only, difference between the FLDS and current mormons is the support of polygamy by the FLDS. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would better recoginize the FLDS than they would the current mainstream Mormons.
QFE!Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
YES THEY ARE!!!!unnamednewbie13 wrote:
The FLDS is not affiliated with the LDS. They split off from the mainstream Mormons earlier last century. They have a different leader and everything.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Sorry dude, they are one and the same. The only difference is that the FLDS (Fundamentalist Latter Days Saints) still adhere to the old ways of the LDS faith.
LDS=Mormon
They are nothing but Mormons that are following the old ways. The one, and only, difference between the FLDS and current mormons is the support of polygamy by the FLDS. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would better recoginize the FLDS than they would the current mainstream Mormons.
Mormons are loosing in the pole. And I like their commercials.
If there was a Mormon breakfast cereal this wouldn't happen. I need to market Polygamy Crunch with Smith berries
If there was a Mormon breakfast cereal this wouldn't happen. I need to market Polygamy Crunch with Smith berries
That's not the trinity as Christians see it. Three personalties making up one God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. As you have shown, they don't see it the same as Christians do, hence they don't have the same God and Christians (those who know better) don't consider Mormons Christians. There are also numerous differences that support this view.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
They believe in the trinity insofar as the father, the son and the holy spirit exist...but are not one entity. Makes sense to me...why would Jesus be praying to himself on the cross? And don't forget that protestants are still considered heretics. How the hell are you going to know you have the right church anyway? Some warm, fuzzy feeling in your gut that's probably resultant from fasting on Sundays?Phrozenbot wrote:
They are not. Just because they believe in Christ does not make them Christians... as Jesus said, if you don't know the Son, you don't know the Father, and if you don't know the father, you don't have the right God. The Jesus Mormons believe in is not the same as the one Christians believe in. They don't believe in the trinity, first heresy, and they believe Jesus is a created being (as OrangeHound pointed out), second heresy, and they believe Jesus is the brother of the devil, third heresy. If you get the first part wrong, don't even call yourself a Christian.
Do you think that God would really care about how people worship him (short of human sacrifice and other such atrocity)?
Why does Jesus say that he and the Father are one? That whatever the Father has, the Son has? And that they are both equally powerful? They are both unique and different personalties, but they are one God. The Holy Spirit does the work of God, and is the God head, forming the trinity.
You have core/essential beliefs that need to be true, or else it is heresy because the god you are worshiping is not really the God in the Bible, and there is scripture that warns of this. The talk of wolves dressed in sheep's skin proclaiming doctrines of demons, and Paul telling us to make sure we pray to the right God etc.
Now, the truth is, everyone's theology is aberrant. No one can truly understand everything in the Bible, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There can be a lot we can dispute on, but things that are non-essential isn't heresy. Heresy is a touchy subject. There is some bad theology that borderlines it, so it's really hard to tell, but there is some things that is just so obvious. But, I guess it's that way the other way around at times.
Oh, and Catholics view on how one receives righteousness may also be considered heresy (I believe so). That's what the reformation pretty much boils down to; the difference between inputed and infused righteousness.
Last edited by Phrozenbot (2007-05-18 23:00:03)
they are not christians they are a cult, a false version of christianity.
mmmkay!
I voted What the hell is a Mormon? after watching a few documentrys and the like they seem just like any other cult/religion to me
well at least i know who scientology i trying to compete with on the wacky cartoon front
It is so insulting when people refer to the Mormons as a cult. How many millions of members and billions in holdings do you have to have before you graduate from the " cult " catagory?
It's because it's newer and more obviously stupid than a lot of other religions. Give it a millenia or so and it may have gained proper acceptance - or more likely, I hope, people will have realised what a load of rubbish religion is in general and done away with it.ATG wrote:
It is so insulting when people refer to the Mormons as a cult. How many millions of members and billions in holdings do you have to have before you graduate from the " cult " catagory?
In the classic sense, calling a group a "cult" merely means that they hold teachings/beliefs that are outside of the mainstream ... and, in relationship to Mormonism, it is called a "Christian cult" because it does not hold to the core teachings of mainstream / historic Christianity.ATG wrote:
It is so insulting when people refer to the Mormons as a cult. How many millions of members and billions in holdings do you have to have before you graduate from the " cult " catagory?
The word "cult" has taken on a completely new meaning in recent years because there have been so many small groups that have not only been a "cult" with their belief system, but they have also had some kooky behaviors, isolationist devotion, and suicidal tendencies.
That cartoon wasn't produced by Mormons ... they have much better marketing than that. I think it was produced by a group opposed to Mormonism as an educational video.elstonieo wrote:
I voted What the hell is a Mormon? after watching a few documentrys and the like they seem just like any other cult/religion to me
well at least i know who scientology i trying to compete with on the wacky cartoon front
Your analysis fails.Bertster7 wrote:
It's because it's newer and more obviously stupid than a lot of other religions. Give it a millenia or so and it may have gained proper acceptance - or more likely, I hope, people will have realised what a load of rubbish religion is in general and done away with it.ATG wrote:
It is so insulting when people refer to the Mormons as a cult. How many millions of members and billions in holdings do you have to have before you graduate from the " cult " catagory?
Too simplistic. Too narrow minded.
Gotta back ATG on this one. Moromons are just christians, period. They might not be as conventional, but they worship jesus, and they're not a cult.ATG wrote:
Your analysis fails.Bertster7 wrote:
It's because it's newer and more obviously stupid than a lot of other religions. Give it a millenia or so and it may have gained proper acceptance - or more likely, I hope, people will have realised what a load of rubbish religion is in general and done away with it.ATG wrote:
It is so insulting when people refer to the Mormons as a cult. How many millions of members and billions in holdings do you have to have before you graduate from the " cult " catagory?
Too simplistic. Too narrow minded.
Jonsimon steps up the ladder of redemption in my eyes.jonsimon wrote:
Gotta back ATG on this one. Moromons are just christians, period. They might not be as conventional, but they worship jesus, and they're not a cult.ATG wrote:
Your analysis fails.Bertster7 wrote:
It's because it's newer and more obviously stupid than a lot of other religions. Give it a millenia or so and it may have gained proper acceptance - or more likely, I hope, people will have realised what a load of rubbish religion is in general and done away with it.
Too simplistic. Too narrow minded.
They are not as accepted as Christians though, are they?ATG wrote:
Your analysis fails.Bertster7 wrote:
It's because it's newer and more obviously stupid than a lot of other religions. Give it a millenia or so and it may have gained proper acceptance - or more likely, I hope, people will have realised what a load of rubbish religion is in general and done away with it.ATG wrote:
It is so insulting when people refer to the Mormons as a cult. How many millions of members and billions in holdings do you have to have before you graduate from the " cult " catagory?
Too simplistic. Too narrow minded.
What I'm saying is that with time, comes religious acceptance. With Mormons it has taken longer than usual because certain aspects of their religion conflict with what a lot of people view to be 'right', polygamy, for example.
Simple analyses are almost always best. Especially when it comes to human reactions.
But " Mormons " rejected polygamy a century ago.Bertster7 wrote:
They are not as accepted as Christians though, are they?ATG wrote:
Your analysis fails.Bertster7 wrote:
It's because it's newer and more obviously stupid than a lot of other religions. Give it a millenia or so and it may have gained proper acceptance - or more likely, I hope, people will have realised what a load of rubbish religion is in general and done away with it.
Too simplistic. Too narrow minded.
What I'm saying is that with time, comes religious acceptance. With Mormons it has taken longer than usual because certain aspects of their religion conflict with what a lot of people view to be 'right', polygamy, for example.
Simple analyses are almost always best. Especially when it comes to human reactions.
IMO Mormons exist because there were a bunch of people who did not accept the mainstream religion of the day. Somebody stepped up with an idea that sold. Kind of like Rick Warren today.
When one is outside of bias of a certain faith one can take an overview and see commonalities of various religions. From an anthropological point of view one can view religion in it's proper context; that of a evolution of human psychology and his relating with mortality.
Not to diminish the mystery of death and the universe at all. I fully believe something happens when we die.
The question remains; what?
You are both right and wrong.Bertster7 wrote:
They are not as accepted as Christians though, are they?
What I'm saying is that with time, comes religious acceptance. With Mormons it has taken longer than usual because certain aspects of their religion conflict with what a lot of people view to be 'right', polygamy, for example.
Simple analyses are almost always best. Especially when it comes to human reactions.
First, you are correct by saying that they are not accepted as "Christian" by the mainstream of the Christian church (Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, etc.), and they are labeled a "Christian cult" by these groups.
But, the reason for this rejection is theological, rather than behavioral - and the theological differences are substantial and at the core of Christianity. To be accepted, the Mormons would just need to reject the non-orthodox theological teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the Mormon apostles and historic leadership ... and abandon the authority of the Mormon sacred books (the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price).
It's possible - the Worldwide Church of God recently abandoned the teachings of its founder H.W. Armstrong - but not likely.
So? Would the Catholic Church of old recognize what it has become now? The FLDS split off and are now unaffiliated.ATG wrote:
QFE!Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
YES THEY ARE!!!!unnamednewbie13 wrote:
The FLDS is not affiliated with the LDS. They split off from the mainstream Mormons earlier last century. They have a different leader and everything.
They are nothing but Mormons that are following the old ways. The one, and only, difference between the FLDS and current mormons is the support of polygamy by the FLDS. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young would better recoginize the FLDS than they would the current mainstream Mormons.
"God likes Frosted Flakes and has white hair," said Christian A.Phrozenbot wrote:
That's not the trinity as Christians see it. Three personalties making up one God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. As you have shown, they don't see it the same as Christians do, hence they don't have the same God and Christians (those who know better) don't consider Mormons Christians. There are also numerous differences that support this view.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
They believe in the trinity insofar as the father, the son and the holy spirit exist...but are not one entity. Makes sense to me...why would Jesus be praying to himself on the cross? And don't forget that protestants are still considered heretics. How the hell are you going to know you have the right church anyway? Some warm, fuzzy feeling in your gut that's probably resultant from fasting on Sundays?Phrozenbot wrote:
They are not. Just because they believe in Christ does not make them Christians... as Jesus said, if you don't know the Son, you don't know the Father, and if you don't know the father, you don't have the right God. The Jesus Mormons believe in is not the same as the one Christians believe in. They don't believe in the trinity, first heresy, and they believe Jesus is a created being (as OrangeHound pointed out), second heresy, and they believe Jesus is the brother of the devil, third heresy. If you get the first part wrong, don't even call yourself a Christian.
Do you think that God would really care about how people worship him (short of human sacrifice and other such atrocity)?
Why does Jesus say that he and the Father are one? That whatever the Father has, the Son has? And that they are both equally powerful? They are both unique and different personalties, but they are one God. The Holy Spirit does the work of God, and is the God head, forming the trinity.
You have core/essential beliefs that need to be true, or else it is heresy because the god you are worshiping is not really the God in the Bible, and there is scripture that warns of this. The talk of wolves dressed in sheep's skin proclaiming doctrines of demons, and Paul telling us to make sure we pray to the right God etc.
Now, the truth is, everyone's theology is aberrant. No one can truly understand everything in the Bible, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There can be a lot we can dispute on, but things that are non-essential isn't heresy. Heresy is a touchy subject. There is some bad theology that borderlines it, so it's really hard to tell, but there is some things that is just so obvious. But, I guess it's that way the other way around at times.
Oh, and Catholics view on how one receives righteousness may also be considered heresy (I believe so). That's what the reformation pretty much boils down to; the difference between inputed and infused righteousness.
"Heresy! God is an Apple Jacks man and has red hair!" said Christian B.
Then if they are the "God head," how com Jesus prayed to his own power? Or, to clear things up for the trinitarians who devoutly TELL ME that they are all one individual, wouldn't it be more logical to call them a Triumvirate?
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-05-20 16:00:25)
Sorry ATG they are a cult, a falling away from True Christianity.
What they do and how they do it makes them a cult, not how many cult members there are.
They do not believe in the Godhood and Deity of Christ.
That puts them in the same category as muslims.
What they do and how they do it makes them a cult, not how many cult members there are.
They do not believe in the Godhood and Deity of Christ.
That puts them in the same category as muslims.
So Islam is a cult? And Buddhism too?theelviscerator wrote:
Sorry ATG they are a cult, a falling away from True Christianity.
What they do and how they do it makes them a cult, not how many cult members there are.
They do not believe in the Godhood and Deity of Christ.
That puts them in the same category as muslims.
Even Orthodoxy?
They all fulfil your criterion.
It's unavoidable that the rejection of the notion of the Trinity as one being drives a wedge between mainline Christianity and Mormonism that is very hard to bridge. That said, I would consider them at least sharing Christian beliefs in that they still accept Jesus as a divine entity.
There is a difference. Just saying you are the Church of Jesus Christ, does not mean you follow his teachings. I could create a church called Church of Jesus Christ of Scientology, and try to prove that Jesus was Hubbert. Does this mean that the church is Christian, no.Darth_Fleder wrote:
Yes, considering that the official name of the church is "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Churches that worship Christ = Christian, no matter what you think of their methods.
Mormons, for the most part, do not follow anything in the Bible, they refer to the Book of Mormons, Pearl of Great Price, and the President of the Mormon Church on how to live their life.
To be a Christian, means to be Christ like, or to follow the teachings of Christ. The Mormons, do not do this, they follow the teachings of other forefathers in their belief. Without getting really religious, I could tell you multiple beliefs that Christians believe and Mormons do not and vise versa.
This is coming from someone who according to the Mormons, is still part of the church, since I did not send a letter to the president of the church requesting to leave. I also have an uncle who is a Mormon. I was baptized as a Mormon, my cousin did his 2 year missions for the Mormon faith.
No, Mormons use the bible as (and sometimes more) regularly than they use their other books. The LDS even prints them in King James format. Every single missionary group I come in contact with has a bible somewhere on their persons.dubbs wrote:
There is a difference. Just saying you are the Church of Jesus Christ, does not mean you follow his teachings. I could create a church called Church of Jesus Christ of Scientology, and try to prove that Jesus was Hubbert. Does this mean that the church is Christian, no.Darth_Fleder wrote:
Yes, considering that the official name of the church is "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Churches that worship Christ = Christian, no matter what you think of their methods.
Mormons, for the most part, do not follow anything in the Bible, they refer to the Book of Mormons, Pearl of Great Price, and the President of the Mormon Church on how to live their life.
To be a Christian, means to be Christ like, or to follow the teachings of Christ. The Mormons, do not do this, they follow the teachings of other forefathers in their belief. Without getting really religious, I could tell you multiple beliefs that Christians believe and Mormons do not and vise versa.
This is coming from someone who according to the Mormons, is still part of the church, since I did not send a letter to the president of the church requesting to leave. I also have an uncle who is a Mormon. I was baptized as a Mormon, my cousin did his 2 year missions for the Mormon faith.