venom6
Since day One.
+247|7005|Hungary
The Treaty of Trianon (1920.06.04)

In the aftermath of WWI, was extremely harsh on Hungary and unjustifiably one-sided. The resulting "treaty" lost Hungary an unprecedented 2/3 of her territory, and 1/2 of her total population or 1/3 of her Hungarian-speaking population. Add to this the loss of up to 90% of vast natural resources, industry, railways, and other infrastructure. This was done to a nation whose borders were established over a thousand years earlier (896 A.D.) and one who lost countless lives defending the rest of Europe from numerous invasions from the likes of the Mongolian Tatars and the Ottoman Turks.

Hungary experienced phenomenal economic growth during the latter part of the 19th century and into the 20th. It's alignment with another economic powerhouse Germany, alarmed France and Russia. Each needed a way to stave off German-Hungarian economic competition. With the advent of WWI, France had her chance and began fostering anti-Hungarian sentiment among non-Magyar speaking Hungarian nationals. It is important to note that for over a thousand years, Hungary never experienced ethnic civil war. France, eager to weaken Hungary, offered to reward those nations and groups that assisted them in the war with large pieces of territory. The "Little Entente" of Rumania (who switched sides in the last minute), Czechoslovakia, and Serbia took that opportunity and got very lucky.

One thousand years of nation building successfully delineated groups based on culture, religion and other attributes to create the countries with which we are so familiar. While some Western European nations would continue power struggles and princely battles and civil wars, Hungary was a peaceful multi-ethnic state for those 1000 years and her borders were unchanged. The West, in its infinite wisdom, created out of Hungary and the Austrian Empire the unlikely "nations" of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. In Yugoslavia, groups that never wanted to live together were thrust into nationhood. Catholic and Protestant Christian Slovenians, Croatians and Hungarians were joined to Greek Orthodox and Serbian Orthodox. All these people were in turn combined with Macedonian church followers, and then Muslims. The developed Western regions of Slovenia and Croatia (who was in peaceful confederation with Hungary for 600 years) were "Balkanized" and now open to Serbian desires to dominate their economic and cultural landscape. The treaty also doubled the size of a new country called Rumania which was created only some 60 years earlier. Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, the signatories of the treaty, have now ceased to exist, yet the borders remain unchanged. Civil war, atrocities, rape and killing of children, and continued oppression are the result of French and allied meddling in Central Europe. Perhaps they should turn their focus on Switzerland, another stable multi-ethnic state!

The dictators in these successor states began to foster nationalism and teach a less-than-accurate history to help bring legitimacy to their regimes. These claims are based on some seriously unfortunate state propaganda-cum-history about an ancient Roman province called Dacia. In Rumania, this revised history, accelerated by Ceaucescu, has become the accepted state historical doctrine even today, making the process of reconciliation much more difficult. In the newly formed Czechslovakia, Eduard Benes and his infamous "Benes Decrees" forcibly expelled thousands and confiscated personal and church properties. Today, the Slovaks, in what was Northern Hungary, with their "Language Law" which sounds like something out of Nazi Germany, forbid the use of Hungarian in official places. Perhaps more unbelievably, the original bill, which was later amended, also forbade Hungarian (or any other language) in church. In one of the most recent attacks on human rights, the Slovaks have made the Hungarian National Anthem illegal unless an official delegation has been invited by the government. Still more recently in June '97, a Hungarian teacher was fired because he handed out bi-lingual grade reports to his students who were mostly Hungarian. Efforts to guarantee anew the rights of the Hungarian "minorities" in Slovakia continue. See the additional steps the Slovak Government has taken against the Hungarian minority.

https://www.webenetics.com/hungary/images/trianon2.gif

Though the United States recommended a more liberal approach in regards to Hungary, it did not prevail. The "self-determination of the nationalities" posited by President Woodrow Wilson resulted in only one plebiscite in Sopron, in Western Hungary. The vote was overwhelmingly pro-Hungarian and Sopron remained within the new borders. Oddly enough, although Austria was also a loser in the war, she also received a part of Hungary, and Sopron became a border city. The Hungarians tried to resist, but the French moved troops into Upper Hungary (now Slovakia) in defiance of the armistice agreement. The Hungarian delegation at Trianon signed the "treaty" in protest. The dismemberment and instability brought economic collapse and governmental crisis. A mini-communist takeover, a republican government, finally gave way to Admiral Miklos Horthy who took over as "Regent" of of Hungary and brought stability back to the country. The new government got to work on trying to revise the unjst treaty. Sadly, the US with its growing isolationist stance, pulled out of the League of Nations and Western Europe wanted no part in re-opening the case. France was focused on making sure Germany was punished and paid its "reparations" even though it was France who declared war on Germany! The Hungarians got a sympathetic ear from only Italy and Germany. This tragic alliance initially gained Hungary part of her northern territory from Czechoslovakia and Northern Transylvania from Rumania (see Territorial revisions map). But this alliance would only to plunge her into another disaster and occupations by first Nazis and later Soviet communists. Her land was again taken. One part of northern Hungary was then transferred from Czechoslovakia and became part of the Soviet Union and is today part of the Ukraine.

https://www.webenetics.com/hungary/images/returned_lands_1938_medium.gif

The maps here not only show graphically the extent to which the Treaty of Trianon dismembered Hungary, it shows how much Hungarian-majority areas were arbitrarily "reassigned.". But the Slovaks, Serbs, and Rumanians, however, wanted much more. The Rumanians, also in defiance of the armistice agreement with their new-found French allies, took advantage of the turmoil in Hungary and moved troops into the defenseless nation and occupied Budapest and beyond. To this day, the Greater Rumania Party and other in Rumania still claim territory that includes the river Tisza and even Budapest. Hungarians today are the one of the largest minorities in Europe and face oppression and violence. Numbering in the millions, Hungarian minorities are second only to the Russians who became "minorities" with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Hungarians live under harsh persecution in the new states created by the treaty. The Helsinki Watch Committee called Romanian efforts to "purify" Transylvania as "Cultural Genocide."

https://www.webenetics.com/hungary/images/trianon_changes.gif

It is important to remember that the regions transferred were not part of the Austrian "Empire" and "deserving" of liquidation, but rather integral parts of Hungary who was herself part of the Austrian Empire and fought two bloody revolutions to free herself. PLUS, THERE WAS NO VOTE, except in a town called Sopron who voted to remain part of Hungary despite the turmoil facing the nation in 1920. Today, these "minorities" in their own lands are calling for autonomy and restitution of properties illegally seized. As expected, their actions are called radical and revisionist, and these governments do what they can to prevent justice. Despite the thousands of legal cases in Rumania, for example, demanding church and synagogue restitutions as provided under Rumanian laws, only a scant 1% of these have been adjudicated. When will this all end?



We had several commemoration yesterday here is one where the mass moved trugh the city and went to the French, Slovak, Romanian and Serb embassy to give a petition but they refused to open the doors or to take the petition. So we waited and then went from one embassy to the other. They all are just cowards !
There were a lot of police everywhere but nothing bad happend !

krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|7226|Great Brown North
man i knew hungary got smaller but damn :\


venom6 wrote:

There were a lot of police everywhere but nothing bad happend !
thats probably because the people protesting werent throwing things or threatening the police.
superfly_cox
soup fly mod
+717|7228

there's no credence to the argument above.  hungary lost most of its land because of the principle of national self-determination which was pushed by Woodrow Wilson following WWI to have nation states replacing old multinational empires.  Hungary was an empire at the time and controlled many lands where they were the minority.  Not one single territory that Hungary lost had a Hungarian Majority.  And if you want to talk about history, all those lands that they lost historically belonged to other nations.  Its not like other nations moved into hungary and diluted their population and then said that now they want independence.

The number of Hungarians in the different areas based on census data of 1910.

    * In Slovakia: 885,000 - 30%
    * In Transylvania (Romania): 1,662,000 - 32%
    * In Vojvodina (Serbia): 420,000 - 28%
    * In Transcarpathia (Ukraine): 183,000 - 30%
    * In Croatia: 121,000 - 3.5%
    * In Slovenia: 20,800 - 1.6%
    * In Burgenland (Austria): 26,200 - 9%

Where exactly is the justification for Hungary (which by the way was not a nation state) to have retained these regions?

Trianon was painful for Hungary but that's life.  If it hadn't happened with the treaty of Trianon it would have happened later on anyway...just look at the former "republic of Yugoslavia".  How did that work out?
venom6
Since day One.
+247|7005|Hungary

krazed wrote:

venom6 wrote:

There were a lot of police everywhere but nothing bad happend !
thats probably because the people protesting werent throwing things or threatening the police.
We had plice terror lest year. If you search for (youtube) october 23, revolution hungary,okt 23, 2006 október 23 you will find shocking pictures how the hungarian agressive police behaved against the innocent peaceful demonstration and also at the 50th anneversy of 1956.
venom6
Since day One.
+247|7005|Hungary

superfly_cox wrote:

there's no credence to the argument above.  hungary lost most of its land because of the principle of national self-determination which was pushed by Woodrow Wilson following WWI to have nation states replacing old multinational empires.  Hungary was an empire at the time and controlled many lands where they were the minority.  Not one single territory that Hungary lost had a Hungarian Majority.  And if you want to talk about history, all those lands that they lost historically belonged to other nations.  Its not like other nations moved into hungary and diluted their population and then said that now they want independence.

The number of Hungarians in the different areas based on census data of 1910.

    * In Slovakia: 885,000 - 30%
    * In Transylvania (Romania): 1,662,000 - 32%
    * In Vojvodina (Serbia): 420,000 - 28%
    * In Transcarpathia (Ukraine): 183,000 - 30%
    * In Croatia: 121,000 - 3.5%
    * In Slovenia: 20,800 - 1.6%
    * In Burgenland (Austria): 26,200 - 9%

Where exactly is the justification for Hungary (which by the way was not a nation state) to have retained these regions?

Trianon was painful for Hungary but that's life.  If it hadn't happened with the treaty of Trianon it would have happened later on anyway...just look at the former "republic of Yugoslavia".  How did that work out?
If you check this map you can see how bad the new borders were made. All hungarians should be in 1 country so there is a NEED to change the borders so there are no hungarian minorities in slovakia, serbia, romania.

https://www.hunsor.se/magyar1000ev/hungarians_incent_europe.jpg

If you saw the map where you see the hungarian border during WW2 and 1941 you will see that the border was changed and it contained the most of the minorities.
The 1st Vienna Award gave us 7000 square km from slovakia with nearly 1 million people over 80 % were hungarian people.
The 2nd Vienna Award gave us Northern Transilvania back what was mixed up with romanian and hungarian people. The msot difficult is the border with romania.

But i think the 90% hungarian cities what are next to the current borders should belong to us again. So there would be no terror against the minorities in serbia, slovakia as there is. A few months ago some slovaks attacked a hungarian girl who livs in slovakia in Nyitra city. The reason was that she spoke hungarian.
In Serbia a few years ago the Serb police attacket the leader of the Serb hungarian minority. He was in hospital for months..

superfly_cox wrote:

Not one single territory that Hungary lost had a Hungarian Majority.  And if you want to talk about history, all those lands that they lost historically belonged to other nations.  Its not like other nations moved into hungary and diluted their population and then said that now they want independence.
No the whole territory was a part of the Hungarian Empire. If you read some of my countries history you will also know that after the attack from Tatars on europe they rushed trugh hungary and killed people, destroyed cities and burned houses. The demography was only 4 million after this.
After this the king asked the nations around us to give some people. A lot of germans came from germany and the slovaks came from north and from czech republic or silezia. The romanians came from the other side of the carpats and the serbs came from the south. Thats why my country finished as a mixed country.
We dont took others land and we were here in the carpats for over 1000 years...

Last edited by venom6 (2007-06-04 08:14:50)

superfly_cox
soup fly mod
+717|7228

it was an empire.  how many other former empires do you see going on about their lost area?  austria isn't what it once was.  britain had an empire but now that's gone too.  france with napoleon had most of europe...that's gone.

bottom line is that hungary lost those areas because they were a minority in the regions and because they were the hungarian empire.  their historic claims to the region are very debatable.  yet there were magyars in the carpathians but they weren't there alone.  how much depends on the nationality of the historian writing the history book.

regarding the map, the same thing is true all over europe where borders have changed in the last 100 years. look at the republic of moldova for instance.  also, the orange patches are not relevant cause 10-50% is a pretty big difference.  not to mention that most of the purple areas are rural areas where its easy to make a point about having a majority when in fact its a couple of very small locales.  and the real reason that map is misleading is because:

slovakia has 10% hungarian minority
serbia has 4%
romania has 7%

sorry but i can't feel sorry for hungary.

but it seems like nobody on this forum has any appetite for Central European controversies.  If it isn't about the middle east or the US its not interesting... [rolls eyes]
zeidmaan
Member
+234|6861|Vienna

venom6 wrote:

If you check this map you can see how bad the new borders were made. All hungarians should be in 1 country so there is a NEED to change the borders so there are no hungarian minorities in slovakia, serbia, romania.
Thats the same idea that Milosevic had
d4rkst4r
biggie smalls
+72|6899|Ontario, Canada

venom6 wrote:

The Treaty of Trianon (1920.06.04)

In the aftermath of WWI, was extremely harsh on Hungary and unjustifiably one-sided. The resulting "treaty" lost Hungary an unprecedented 2/3 of her territory, and 1/2 of her total population or 1/3 of her Hungarian-speaking population. Add to this the loss of up to 90% of vast natural resources, industry, railways, and other infrastructure. This was done to a nation whose borders were established over a thousand years earlier (896 A.D.) and one who lost countless lives defending the rest of Europe from numerous invasions from the likes of the Mongolian Tatars and the Ottoman Turks.

Hungary experienced phenomenal economic growth during the latter part of the 19th century and into the 20th. It's alignment with another economic powerhouse Germany, alarmed France and Russia. Each needed a way to stave off German-Hungarian economic competition. With the advent of WWI, France had her chance and began fostering anti-Hungarian sentiment among non-Magyar speaking Hungarian nationals. It is important to note that for over a thousand years, Hungary never experienced ethnic civil war. France, eager to weaken Hungary, offered to reward those nations and groups that assisted them in the war with large pieces of territory. The "Little Entente" of Rumania (who switched sides in the last minute), Czechoslovakia, and Serbia took that opportunity and got very lucky.

One thousand years of nation building successfully delineated groups based on culture, religion and other attributes to create the countries with which we are so familiar. While some Western European nations would continue power struggles and princely battles and civil wars, Hungary was a peaceful multi-ethnic state for those 1000 years and her borders were unchanged. The West, in its infinite wisdom, created out of Hungary and the Austrian Empire the unlikely "nations" of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. In Yugoslavia, groups that never wanted to live together were thrust into nationhood. Catholic and Protestant Christian Slovenians, Croatians and Hungarians were joined to Greek Orthodox and Serbian Orthodox. All these people were in turn combined with Macedonian church followers, and then Muslims. The developed Western regions of Slovenia and Croatia (who was in peaceful confederation with Hungary for 600 years) were "Balkanized" and now open to Serbian desires to dominate their economic and cultural landscape. The treaty also doubled the size of a new country called Rumania which was created only some 60 years earlier. Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, the signatories of the treaty, have now ceased to exist, yet the borders remain unchanged. Civil war, atrocities, rape and killing of children, and continued oppression are the result of French and allied meddling in Central Europe. Perhaps they should turn their focus on Switzerland, another stable multi-ethnic state!

The dictators in these successor states began to foster nationalism and teach a less-than-accurate history to help bring legitimacy to their regimes. These claims are based on some seriously unfortunate state propaganda-cum-history about an ancient Roman province called Dacia. In Rumania, this revised history, accelerated by Ceaucescu, has become the accepted state historical doctrine even today, making the process of reconciliation much more difficult. In the newly formed Czechslovakia, Eduard Benes and his infamous "Benes Decrees" forcibly expelled thousands and confiscated personal and church properties. Today, the Slovaks, in what was Northern Hungary, with their "Language Law" which sounds like something out of Nazi Germany, forbid the use of Hungarian in official places. Perhaps more unbelievably, the original bill, which was later amended, also forbade Hungarian (or any other language) in church. In one of the most recent attacks on human rights, the Slovaks have made the Hungarian National Anthem illegal unless an official delegation has been invited by the government. Still more recently in June '97, a Hungarian teacher was fired because he handed out bi-lingual grade reports to his students who were mostly Hungarian. Efforts to guarantee anew the rights of the Hungarian "minorities" in Slovakia continue. See the additional steps the Slovak Government has taken against the Hungarian minority.

http://www.webenetics.com/hungary/images/trianon2.gif

Though the United States recommended a more liberal approach in regards to Hungary, it did not prevail. The "self-determination of the nationalities" posited by President Woodrow Wilson resulted in only one plebiscite in Sopron, in Western Hungary. The vote was overwhelmingly pro-Hungarian and Sopron remained within the new borders. Oddly enough, although Austria was also a loser in the war, she also received a part of Hungary, and Sopron became a border city. The Hungarians tried to resist, but the French moved troops into Upper Hungary (now Slovakia) in defiance of the armistice agreement. The Hungarian delegation at Trianon signed the "treaty" in protest. The dismemberment and instability brought economic collapse and governmental crisis. A mini-communist takeover, a republican government, finally gave way to Admiral Miklos Horthy who took over as "Regent" of of Hungary and brought stability back to the country. The new government got to work on trying to revise the unjst treaty. Sadly, the US with its growing isolationist stance, pulled out of the League of Nations and Western Europe wanted no part in re-opening the case. France was focused on making sure Germany was punished and paid its "reparations" even though it was France who declared war on Germany! The Hungarians got a sympathetic ear from only Italy and Germany. This tragic alliance initially gained Hungary part of her northern territory from Czechoslovakia and Northern Transylvania from Rumania (see Territorial revisions map). But this alliance would only to plunge her into another disaster and occupations by first Nazis and later Soviet communists. Her land was again taken. One part of northern Hungary was then transferred from Czechoslovakia and became part of the Soviet Union and is today part of the Ukraine.

http://www.webenetics.com/hungary/image … medium.gif

The maps here not only show graphically the extent to which the Treaty of Trianon dismembered Hungary, it shows how much Hungarian-majority areas were arbitrarily "reassigned.". But the Slovaks, Serbs, and Rumanians, however, wanted much more. The Rumanians, also in defiance of the armistice agreement with their new-found French allies, took advantage of the turmoil in Hungary and moved troops into the defenseless nation and occupied Budapest and beyond. To this day, the Greater Rumania Party and other in Rumania still claim territory that includes the river Tisza and even Budapest. Hungarians today are the one of the largest minorities in Europe and face oppression and violence. Numbering in the millions, Hungarian minorities are second only to the Russians who became "minorities" with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Hungarians live under harsh persecution in the new states created by the treaty. The Helsinki Watch Committee called Romanian efforts to "purify" Transylvania as "Cultural Genocide."

http://www.webenetics.com/hungary/image … hanges.gif

It is important to remember that the regions transferred were not part of the Austrian "Empire" and "deserving" of liquidation, but rather integral parts of Hungary who was herself part of the Austrian Empire and fought two bloody revolutions to free herself. PLUS, THERE WAS NO VOTE, except in a town called Sopron who voted to remain part of Hungary despite the turmoil facing the nation in 1920. Today, these "minorities" in their own lands are calling for autonomy and restitution of properties illegally seized. As expected, their actions are called radical and revisionist, and these governments do what they can to prevent justice. Despite the thousands of legal cases in Rumania, for example, demanding church and synagogue restitutions as provided under Rumanian laws, only a scant 1% of these have been adjudicated. When will this all end?



We had several commemoration yesterday here is one where the mass moved trugh the city and went to the French, Slovak, Romanian and Serb embassy to give a petition but they refused to open the doors or to take the petition. So we waited and then went from one embassy to the other. They all are just cowards !
There were a lot of police everywhere but nothing bad happend !

I'm not giving you karma because it's not that hard to copy and paste.
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6975|Global Command
I got nothing to add except that is one hellava OP.
Nicely done!
bogo24dk
Member
+26|6952
I must say the text you presented here is very biased. I can comment on Transylvania which has Romanian roots from thousands of years ago. Just because Hungarians took it from the Romanian's doesn't make it as a Hungarian part.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7090
shit happens when you lose a war.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2007-06-04 23:08:52)

herrr_smity
Member
+156|7074|space command ur anus

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

shit happens when you a lose a war.
iamangry
Member
+59|7091|The United States of America
I'll tell you why no one heard you. 


You didn't have anyone with c4 strapped to their chest exploding into their embassies.  You didn't have RPG's, you didn't threaten to "behead the foreign infidels".  Peaceful protests have no part in this world, the Muslims have shown us all that.  If you want political bending, you be violent!
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|7111|NT, like Mick Dundee

herrr_smity wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

shit happens when you a lose a war.
Look at Germany.... The blame for WW1 fell squarly on his shoulder's yet the blame for WW1 is shared by many countries....
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
venom6
Since day One.
+247|7005|Hungary

superfly_cox wrote:

it was an empire.  how many other former empires do you see going on about their lost area?  austria isn't what it once was.  britain had an empire but now that's gone too.  france with napoleon had most of europe...that's gone.

bottom line is that hungary lost those areas because they were a minority in the regions and because they were the hungarian empire.  their historic claims to the region are very debatable.  yet there were magyars in the carpathians but they weren't there alone.  how much depends on the nationality of the historian writing the history book.

regarding the map, the same thing is true all over europe where borders have changed in the last 100 years. look at the republic of moldova for instance.  also, the orange patches are not relevant cause 10-50% is a pretty big difference.  not to mention that most of the purple areas are rural areas where its easy to make a point about having a majority when in fact its a couple of very small locales.  and the real reason that map is misleading is because:

slovakia has 10% hungarian minority
serbia has 4%
romania has 7%

sorry but i can't feel sorry for hungary.

but it seems like nobody on this forum has any appetite for Central European controversies.  If it isn't about the middle east or the US its not interesting... [rolls eyes]
It was not an Empire for some years. The Hungarians came to this place in 896 ans since then we are HERE.
My country was forced into the Habsburg monarchy and nobody is talking about 1848-1849 when we tried to become our indipendence from the habsburgs. My country dont wanted to be a part of WW1 but as we were part of austria we were forced into it. They lost, we lsot and no other country was punished that hard like hungary. They destroyed everything with this. 2/3 from the territory the biggest part from the industry then 90 % from our forrests were taken. Total from 282 000 km² to 93 000 km² !
So 100 years are not the same as 1000 years.
There are over 3 million hungarians abroad. What slovakia, serbia, romania is doing is this: assimilate the minority and fakeing the real data. They force hungarians to be slovaks or what ever.
I just see your from romania so i have no longer to tell anything to you because you will say the total different thing what you have been told to say in school. We know you were from the Roman Empire.

zeidmaan wrote:

venom6 wrote:

If you check this map you can see how bad the new borders were made. All hungarians should be in 1 country so there is a NEED to change the borders so there are no hungarian minorities in slovakia, serbia, romania.
Thats the same idea that Milosevic had
No its not the same. If i go to the other side of the hungarian-slovak border i still speak my language as everyone is understanding it and i recive answers in hungarian. The 1st Vienna Award was years ago but there is a need to change the border in the north. Only to relase slovakia from the hungarian minority as they hate them. If they dont want the people there they dont want that part so simple give us the 7000 km² back and both sides are happy.

bogo24dk wrote:

I must say the text you presented here is very biased. I can comment on Transylvania which has Romanian roots from thousands of years ago. Just because Hungarians took it from the Romanian's doesn't make it as a Hungarian part.
No.Since 896 its a part of Hungary and Romania got it after 1920 as France gave it to them.

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

shit happens when you lose a war.
A war what did not my country started and we dont even wanted to be a part of it.
Intresting that Romania was alos on the germans side in both world wars and they allways switched sides at the very end when they saw that the axis is losing. One of the most disloyal country in the world.
They joined antant coz Britan,France told them if they help them he gets Transylvania.
superfly_cox
soup fly mod
+717|7228

venom6 wrote:

I just see your from romania so i have no longer to tell anything to you because you will say the total different thing what you have been told to say in school. We know you were from the Roman Empire.
actually I'm from the US (work in Romania).  i have not read romanian history books on the subject but am familiar with the issue.

The point you are missing is that you cannot claim that a land historically belongs to you when you are a minority in those areas.  I again refer you to this statistic:

The number of Hungarians in the different areas based on census data of 1910.

    * In Slovakia: 885,000 - 30%
    * In Transylvania (Romania): 1,662,000 - 32%
    * In Vojvodina (Serbia): 420,000 - 28%
    * In Transcarpathia (Ukraine): 183,000 - 30%
    * In Croatia: 121,000 - 3.5%
    * In Slovenia: 20,800 - 1.6%
    * In Burgenland (Austria): 26,200 - 9%

Hungarians were minorities in the lands which they lost.  The idea that they were the owners and invited others to come join ignores the fact that these are regions of ethnic overlap.  Romanians didn't enter Transylvania because Hungarians invited them -> they've always been there also.  Plus, if you're basing Hungary's claim to territory on something 1000 years ago, then I can find someone who claims they were there 2000 years ago and so its actually their territory...

Don't forget that if the borders were the other way around then you'd have a majority of other ethnic groups living in Hungarian regions and that wouldn't work out either --> see Yugoslavia example. 

As far as the issue of assimilation, I don't see that.  Hungarians wanting special rights (example: to speak only hungarian) in their ethnic regions is something that doesn't happen in the rest of the world.  In the US, which is very tolerant of other ethnic groups, you are entitled to retain your ethnic identity but you cannot have your ethnic language as the official language of a region just because there's an ethnic majority.

I say move on.  Get over trianon cause it was 87 years ago.  Let go of the frustration and bitterness because its not going to change anything.  Besides, all these countries are in the EU and NATO together.  There are open borders, free trade, democracy...who cares where Hungary's border are anymore.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|7111|NT, like Mick Dundee

Get over it. It's attitudes like those you are displaying that caused World War 2 and Hitler's rise to power in Germany. It's disgusting, vulgar and base. I had thought that most of Europe had left that behind long ago. I say most because the Balkans always does seem to be a little pot of trouble.

venom, Hungary is not a natural feature of the geography. It's a human concept. An idea.

There is no "Hungarian" gene that makes somebody Hungarian. The idea of being Hungarian is also a concept or idea. Give up the ethnic purity crap. It starts wars, causes genocide and is generally frowned upon. If they want to live in Hungary to preserve their ethnic "hungarianess" or "hungarian genes" they can fucking well move there.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
venom6
Since day One.
+247|7005|Hungary

Flecco wrote:

There is no "Hungarian" gene that makes somebody Hungarian. The idea of being Hungarian is also a concept or idea. Give up the ethnic purity crap. It starts wars, causes genocide and is generally frowned upon. If they want to live in Hungary to preserve their ethnic "hungarianess" or "hungarian genes" they can fucking well move there.
1. Why should they move ? They were there first and that was Hungary only the borders were forced by some stupid hungarian hater french pilitics. The borders should be moved only that much where we have minorities next to the border.

2. Genocide was made by serbians, romanians, slovaks after 1920. As they wanted to inhabit the new recived territory with their people. So they started to mix up the minorities. Also romans started inhabit Transylvania with romans so hungarians cant say that there are minorities next to the border.
During WW2 serbian partisans killed only 30.000 innocent hungarians who live in the norther part of serbia what was a part of hungary.

You are from Australia what has a made culture and made history. You dont have a painful 1000 year old history.
Your country did not defend other nations from Tatars or Turks. Hungary defended Europe from the Turk Ottoman attacks and thats why you hear the churchs bell ringing at 12 o'clock every day.
You wont understand it anyway...your not from my country its hard to tell someone whos not hungarian.
superfly_cox
soup fly mod
+717|7228

To be fair, the situation with Hungary is that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time when the borders were rearranged following WWI and WWII.  Yes they did deserve to lose alot of what used to be their empire but they probably lost more than they should have.  The border regions were very mixed and still are.

From my experience hungarians have always had a very huge chip on their shoulders about this.  they have a very old and proud history and the country which is currently Hungary is pretty much a small flat piece of land with one gorgeous city: Budapest.  Aside from that they lost most of what was beautiful about their land: mountains, forests, hills, lakes etc.  this causes alot of frustration for hungarians...but that's life i guess. 

also, he's right that very little attention is given to the countries that defended europe against the ottoman empire.  basically the hungarians, romanians and serbs fought the ottoman empire for hundred of years and incurred devastating losses.  obviously they didn't mean to defend europe (they were just defending their land), but the result was that you never hear of the threats to Europe from the Ottoman empire...it was a pretty big deal.
Pacman
Member
+0|6710|UK

venom6 wrote:

...and no other country was punished that hard like hungary.
Surely, in March 1918 when German (and Hungary ill have you know) made Russia lose 1/2 its industry and 1/3 of its population in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (sp.?) that was harsher??
JahManRed
wank
+646|7074|IRELAND

superfly_cox wrote:

but it seems like nobody on this forum has any appetite for Central European controversies.  If it isn't about the middle east or the US its not interesting... [rolls eyes]
Ohhh, cheap shot.

Personally I only care for issues which could directly effect, me, my family and/or my country. This doesn't. The middle east has the potential to start ww3 and polarize Christians and Muslims across the globe against each other. The US is the country which is pushing its agenda and interests in the middle east so we are going to talk about that too. If your trying to compare a treaty which took place 87 years ago, which took into consideration population percentages to rightly divide up a contest area of Europe (which the majority of ppl in the area are happy with) with the current middle east situation then sorry Soup I aint intrested. Does that make me a bad person in some way? [rolls eyes]

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