Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina
In another thread, I saw an interesting discussion about the Electoral College.  I'm not trying to single people out here, but here's the post that interested me most....

CameronPoe wrote:

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

The electoral college balances the vote between densely populated areas ( important because of their population ) and rural areas ( important because of what they produce. )

IE. The world needs Food more than Hip Hop.

You cant have what comprises the majority of the population make rules and pass legislation ( that they don’t understand because its alien to their world ) that would cripple necessary industries and Farmland, the very life line of our population ( if not most of the worlds. )

A small example.

Look what happened with the Luxury Yacht tax

“ Lets stick it to the rich because most people hate them, Good press ! “

A piece of Classic class envy legislation, pushed by liberal democrats to get Lots of Feel good press and camera time.

The American yacht industry was crippled along with the thousands of people ( upper, middle and lower class it ) employed. 

The Rich bought their yachts from Europe. The European Yacht industry thrives.

Basically

The Electoral College prevents someone getting into the office by Promising Free Beer in a slum.

Or promising “ Free Health care ! If you have this card, you’re covered ! “ b. clinton 1991

You'd think after 18 years of never delivering on this promise (despite holding the White House and a democratic majority in the House and Senate ) people who vote would wise up. I guess not.

”. . .You can fool some of the people all the time ! “
Abe Lincoln

Each Electoral College ballot cast reflects the popular vote of that district, Its not really that hard to understand. Is it?
It’s a little late in the game to have to educate people on the Electoral College.

Some times I feel like I am defining "electron flow" to the Yanomamo Tribesmen
Sounds pretty undemocratic to me. I guess 'One man, one vote' and 'We are all equal' doesn't really apply then. You're essentially saying poor people are too stupid to vote properly or should be less entitled to an equal voice with the monied landed classes.
Now, I realize Hunter was being somewhat facetious in his post, but he makes some good points.  In fact, if you look at the history of the Electoral College, the Founding Fathers seemed to have a similar distrust in the masses.

On the one hand, we pretend that one man should equal one vote, but then again, we began our voting system with only white male landowners able to vote.  So really...  we live in what began and still somewhat is a plutocratic republic.  We elect representatives, but even the highest representative (the president) is ultimately elected by other representatives in the Electoral College.

It's like there's an unwritten rule that states that the people aren't wise enough to elect a leader without the approval of the system itself.

So which is it?  Are we really all "created equal?"  Is the will of the majority really what our system is designed to promote?

The more I look into it, the more I realize that the answer to both of those questions is no.  Money and who you know determine your worth in this system.  With the Electoral College in place, you're better off as a rural voter than an urban one.

Equality in terms of representation is a joke in this system.  But then again, even if the math was worked out properly and the popular vote was truly what mattered, would it really change things?  It wouldn't change the fact that you have to be a billionaire to run for president.  It wouldn't change the fact that corporations can buy off local government in order to receive tax "incentives" that funnel the money of the working class into corporations that crush smaller businesses.

And yet, the stupidity of the masses is undeniable...  Is it really best for the rich to run things?  Are they really more wise and fit to rule?

So I ask all of you: Should the Electoral College be abolished, or is it necessary due to the stupidity of the general public?
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6623
Another problem with it is that Districts are always redrawn...usually to the benefit of the party in power....this happens alot and diminishes what the electorate was supposed to be.
mcminty
Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.
+879|7165|Sydney, Australia
How about they cut all this shit, and make it law that everyone has to vote. You can't truly call yourselves a democracy if only about 50%-60% of your population vote.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Another problem with it is that Districts are always redrawn...usually to the benefit of the party in power....this happens alot and diminishes what the electorate was supposed to be.
Very true...  I like the idea of everyone running "at-large".  Instead of voting for district representation, you vote for multiple candidates equal to the number of representatives that your state is allotted.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

mcminty wrote:

How about they cut all this shit, and make it law that everyone has to vote. You can't truly call yourselves a democracy if only about 50%-60% of your population vote.
I don't think mandatory voting would work well in America, but it would certainly encourage better voting access to everyone here. Hmm...
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7134|Tampa Bay Florida
Popular vote > Electoral college

Why the hell do we even need it?  I'll give someone 500 bucks if they can give a reason why electoral college is better.
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6798

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

Another problem with it is that Districts are always redrawn...usually to the benefit of the party in power....this happens alot and diminishes what the electorate was supposed to be.
this is called " Gerrymandering " It can get pretty creative.
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6798

Turquoise wrote:

mcminty wrote:

How about they cut all this shit, and make it law that everyone has to vote. You can't truly call yourselves a democracy if only about 50%-60% of your population vote.
I don't think mandatory voting would work well in America, but it would certainly encourage better voting access to everyone here. Hmm...
If you cant be inclined to care, you shouldn't vote. People would vote for Posh Spice out of name recognition alone.

Ps its not a "Democracy " its a " Democratic Republic " I cant believe I am still saying this.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6889|The Land of Scott Walker
A large portion of the population does not do their civic duty to vote.  Yet they'll bitch about not having equal representation.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

mcminty wrote:

How about they cut all this shit, and make it law that everyone has to vote. You can't truly call yourselves a democracy if only about 50%-60% of your population vote.
I don't think mandatory voting would work well in America, but it would certainly encourage better voting access to everyone here. Hmm...
If you cant be inclined to care, you shouldn't vote. People would vote for Posh Spice out of name recognition alone.

Ps its not a "Democracy " its a " Democratic Republic " I cant believe I am still saying this.
I realize that, Hunter, but the question remains: if we elect other people to represent us, shouldn't we be concerned about what is required to successfully run?

Basically, I'm just saying you have to be rich to run for office, and we already have a system in place that works against the concept of "one man = one vote."  It sounds like we're more of a republic and less of a democracy.  We are still a democratic republic, but we may have to change the democratic part to plutocratic.
Hunter/Jumper
Member
+117|6798

Turq. wrote:

Irealize that, Hunter, but the question remains: if we elect other people to represent us, shouldn't we be concerned about what is required to successfully run?

Basically, I'm just saying you have to be rich to run for office, and we already have a system in place that works against the concept of "one man = one vote."  It sounds like we're more of a republic and less of a democracy.  We are still a democratic republic, but we may have to change the democratic part to plutocratic.
Your right, something must be done. It may prove to be bloody.
CloakedStarship
Member
+76|7009

Turquoise wrote:

In fact, if you look at the history of the Electoral College, the Founding Fathers seemed to have a similar distrust in the masses.
QFT

I'm not a fan of mob rule.  There would be a lot of prejudistic (is that even a word?) rulings going on if thats how things worked.

The electoral college, imo, is a good way of voting for the president.  There should be, however, a governmental system instituted that made it possible for any person within reason, to run for the presidency, and any other government office.  A system that made campaigning free, and gave each candidate EQUAL time to spread their views.  This would give the decent person a fair chance, and stop the rich from being the only ones who could effectively campaign.

Thats far fetched though.  As of right now, money makes the world go round, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity
Electoral college was instilled by our founding fathers out of fear of a massive uneducated mob that was easily swayed by fast talkers. While we still have a massivly uneducated mob i think that the grounds for the electoral college system deny us a critical componet to our beloved democracy. With our direct vote of our president we lose most of our representation as a nation. If there was a petition to eliminate this system i would gladly sign it.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

CloakedStarship wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

In fact, if you look at the history of the Electoral College, the Founding Fathers seemed to have a similar distrust in the masses.
QFT

I'm not a fan of mob rule.  There would be a lot of prejudistic (is that even a word?) rulings going on if thats how things worked.

The electoral college, imo, is a good way of voting for the president.  There should be, however, a governmental system instituted that made it possible for any person within reason, to run for the presidency, and any other government office.  A system that made campaigning free, and gave each candidate EQUAL time to spread their views.  This would give the decent person a fair chance, and stop the rich from being the only ones who could effectively campaign.

Thats far fetched though.  As of right now, money makes the world go round, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
One system that I prefer over the Electoral College and over the Republic that we have is a parliamentary system.

In a typical parliament, you have two legislative houses just like our system, but instead of having a president, you have a Prime Minister.  The PM enters office according to whatever party has the most seats in the legislature.  So, before a given election, each party designates who its leader is, and then, the party that ends up with the most seats after an election puts this person into office as Prime Minister.

While this system still keeps the masses from directly electing the top leader of government, it seems like a more sensible way than having a separate indirect election for the position.  People then have two things to consider when voting for a local representative: first, the representative him/herself, and second, the possibility of having that party's leader as PM.  I personally think this is better because it encourages people to put more thought into the election than our current system.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity

Turquoise wrote:

CloakedStarship wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

In fact, if you look at the history of the Electoral College, the Founding Fathers seemed to have a similar distrust in the masses.
QFT

I'm not a fan of mob rule.  There would be a lot of prejudistic (is that even a word?) rulings going on if thats how things worked.

The electoral college, imo, is a good way of voting for the president.  There should be, however, a governmental system instituted that made it possible for any person within reason, to run for the presidency, and any other government office.  A system that made campaigning free, and gave each candidate EQUAL time to spread their views.  This would give the decent person a fair chance, and stop the rich from being the only ones who could effectively campaign.

Thats far fetched though.  As of right now, money makes the world go round, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
One system that I prefer over the Electoral College and over the Republic that we have is a parliamentary system.

In a typical parliament, you have two legislative houses just like our system, but instead of having a president, you have a Prime Minister.  The PM enters office according to whatever party has the most seats in the legislature.  So, before a given election, each party designates who its leader is, and then, the party that ends up with the most seats after an election puts this person into office as Prime Minister.

While this system still keeps the masses from directly electing the top leader of government, it seems like a more sensible way than having a separate indirect election for the position.  People then have two things to consider when voting for a local representative: first, the representative him/herself, and second, the possibility of having that party's leader as PM.  I personally think this is better because it encourages people to put more thought into the election than our current system.
How about we do away with parties all together and let people run just based on thier platform that way people like my dad wont just go "oh hes a republican why dont i vote for him". With the elemination of parties more peoples views will be shared and it will be harder for any people in power to cover up thier scandals and mishaps. This will lead to a more moral and trustworthy staff in our goverment.

What i would like to see is that if a state feels thier congressman or senator is not doing a satisfactory job that they have the ability to , with 51% state population vote, remove that person from office and hold elections agian. This will keep politicans on thier toes and make them stick to thier campaing promises better or stop them from making bullshit campaing promises.

On topic however I believe that direct election of our chief of staff is the only way to go. My only concern is what about the positions inside his/her administration? Will they be hand picked or will they be elected? Its a tough call but my idea is that they show thier credentials for the job after being hand-picked by the president, and if the people dont like them or nither does the other branches of goverment (im talking about credintals the accusing party must have proof of a non-acciptibal credential of the canidate or a suggestion of a better canidate) then they can force the president to choose a different one.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

How about we do away with parties all together and let people run just based on thier platform that way people like my dad wont just go "oh hes a republican why dont i vote for him". With the elemination of parties more peoples views will be shared and it will be harder for any people in power to cover up thier scandals and mishaps. This will lead to a more moral and trustworthy staff in our goverment.
Ideally, yes...  Unfortunately, Madison was correct when he said that people naturally separate themselves into factions.  Inevitably, parties will always exist, just like religions always will.

Thankfully, many local elections don't allow parties.  Many mayoral races are "nonpartisan."  In those races, you vote for individuals without a party affiliation.

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

What i would like to see is that if a state feels thier congressman or senator is not doing a satisfactory job that they have the ability to , with 51% state population vote, remove that person from office and hold elections agian. This will keep politicans on thier toes and make them stick to thier campaing promises better or stop them from making bullshit campaing promises.
That's similar to how a parliamentary government works.  A parliament can hold a "no confidence" vote and call another general election.  This means every riding (district) has to vote again for who they want to represent them, and the party with the most seats appoints the next PM.  Usually, for a no confidence vote to be successful, this involves getting about 2/3 in favor of it.  I think that's how Canada's parliament works.  They recently held a no confidence vote which ousted PM Paul Martin.  After the election, PM Stephen Harper took office because the Liberal party no longer had the most seats.  The Conservative party did.

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

On topic however I believe that direct election of our chief of staff is the only way to go. My only concern is what about the positions inside his/her administration? Will they be hand picked or will they be elected? Its a tough call but my idea is that they show thier credentials for the job after being hand-picked by the president, and if the people dont like them or nither does the other branches of goverment (im talking about credintals the accusing party must have proof of a non-acciptibal credential of the canidate or a suggestion of a better canidate) then they can force the president to choose a different one.
Part of the reason why I prefer a parliamentary system is because the method of choosing a party leader is different.  Since a PM is not directly elected, parties choose a leader that tends to be less of a spokesperson and more of a policymaker.  This isn't always the case, but with Stephen Harper, it certainly was.  Harper has very little charisma, but he is a very astute policymaker.  Essentially, you end up with more intellectual leaders in a parliament.

In our system, we seem to end up with smooth talkers or good old boys.  I think we know which one of those Bush is.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity
I dont know though i would prefer to be able to let the people decide the leader of the senate *insert star wars music here* rather than let the bosos in the senate decide. I like the tri-branch foundation allocated to our goverment. The only thing that bugs me is that the checks and balances arnt used as much as they are suppose to be.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

I dont know though i would prefer to be able to let the people decide the leader of the senate *insert star wars music here* rather than let the bosos in the senate decide. I like the tri-branch foundation allocated to our goverment. The only thing that bugs me is that the checks and balances arnt used as much as they are suppose to be.
I definitely know where you're coming from.  I'm beginning to feel like "checks and balances" refers more to the kickbacks that Senators and Representatives receive rather than the balance of power between the branches.

The main part of our system that needs a check to its power is lobbyism.  Corporations and special interests have thoroughly corrupted our system....
elstonieo
Oil 4 Euros not $$$
+20|6782|EsSeX
I think both the UK and USA could do with some form of proportional representation, even if its only in one house. Until that day comes i don't really count the UK as a democracy imo

Should you
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity

Turquoise wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

I dont know though i would prefer to be able to let the people decide the leader of the senate *insert star wars music here* rather than let the bosos in the senate decide. I like the tri-branch foundation allocated to our goverment. The only thing that bugs me is that the checks and balances arnt used as much as they are suppose to be.
I definitely know where you're coming from.  I'm beginning to feel like "checks and balances" refers more to the kickbacks that Senators and Representatives receive rather than the balance of power between the branches.

The main part of our system that needs a check to its power is lobbyism.  Corporations and special interests have thoroughly corrupted our system....
I have to agree that more ristrictions shoudl be put on lobbyism but i think moderate lobbyism is a good thing. Lobbyism allows corperations which fuel americas economy thier voice to the goverment. Without this our sense of free market becomes even more so deminshed.

However i do believe that the lobbyist's facts should all be checked out before they have thier say in front of congress or what have you. If they are allowed to bullshit congress they are basically allowed to sidestep the entire law pertaining to thier buisness. Remember kiddies no one is above the law.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

I dont know though i would prefer to be able to let the people decide the leader of the senate *insert star wars music here* rather than let the bosos in the senate decide. I like the tri-branch foundation allocated to our goverment. The only thing that bugs me is that the checks and balances arnt used as much as they are suppose to be.
I definitely know where you're coming from.  I'm beginning to feel like "checks and balances" refers more to the kickbacks that Senators and Representatives receive rather than the balance of power between the branches.

The main part of our system that needs a check to its power is lobbyism.  Corporations and special interests have thoroughly corrupted our system....
I have to agree that more ristrictions shoudl be put on lobbyism but i think moderate lobbyism is a good thing. Lobbyism allows corperations which fuel americas economy thier voice to the goverment. Without this our sense of free market becomes even more so deminshed.

However i do believe that the lobbyist's facts should all be checked out before they have thier say in front of congress or what have you. If they are allowed to bullshit congress they are basically allowed to sidestep the entire law pertaining to thier buisness. Remember kiddies no one is above the law.
See, I'm not that concerned about the free market, because that often just seems to be a euphemism for corporate power.  The freer corporations are to do as they please, the more the average person tends to suffer.  The government has to serve as a balance, but unfortunately, our government has been bought by corporations.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity

Turquoise wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I definitely know where you're coming from.  I'm beginning to feel like "checks and balances" refers more to the kickbacks that Senators and Representatives receive rather than the balance of power between the branches.

The main part of our system that needs a check to its power is lobbyism.  Corporations and special interests have thoroughly corrupted our system....
I have to agree that more ristrictions shoudl be put on lobbyism but i think moderate lobbyism is a good thing. Lobbyism allows corperations which fuel americas economy thier voice to the goverment. Without this our sense of free market becomes even more so deminshed.

However i do believe that the lobbyist's facts should all be checked out before they have thier say in front of congress or what have you. If they are allowed to bullshit congress they are basically allowed to sidestep the entire law pertaining to thier buisness. Remember kiddies no one is above the law.
See, I'm not that concerned about the free market, because that often just seems to be a euphemism for corporate power.  The freer corporations are to do as they please, the more the average person tends to suffer.  The government has to serve as a balance, but unfortunately, our government has been bought by corporations.
That sounds like something i heard from a greasy old hippie

Goverment does need light moderation on corperations but if the market is free than compition can drive down cost and ultimatly let the consumer win.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6849|North Carolina

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Goverment does need light moderation on corperations but if the market is free than compition can drive down cost and ultimatly let the consumer win.
...unless an oligarchy develops, and then companies collude against the interests of the consumer.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity

Turquoise wrote:

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Goverment does need light moderation on corperations but if the market is free than compition can drive down cost and ultimatly let the consumer win.
...unless an oligarchy develops, and then companies collude against the interests of the consumer.
thats soemthign im agianst and one of the goverments light moderation policies
T.Pike
99 Problems . . .
+187|6726|Pennsyltucky

Liberal-Sl@yer wrote:

Electoral college was instilled by our founding fathers out of fear of a massive uneducated mob that was easily swayed by fast talkers. While we still have a massivly uneducated mob i think that the grounds for the electoral college system deny us a critical componet to our beloved democracy. With our direct vote of our president we lose most of our representation as a nation. If there was a petition to eliminate this system i would gladly sign it.
I must respectfully disagree.

My understanding was that the Electoral College was formed right before or right after Texas joined the Union.

They were afraid that Texas being so large could elect the President on their own.

The Electoral college tries to ensure that all States are a determining factor in who becomes President.

Of course, I could be wrong 

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