Poll

The Arab World will support...

Fatah, because a moderate stance wiill bring peace47%47% - 22
Hamas, because they perceive Fatah as Traitors52%52% - 24
Total: 46
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7201|Argentina
Martyrs or traitors.  A choice the West must be careful not to force on the people of the Middle East.

Egypt's president, Anwar Sadat, was called a traitor for making his courageous peace with Israel in 1979 (and assassinated by jihadists two years later). Arafat was called a traitor after shaking hands with an Israeli prime minister on the White House lawn. In Lebanon right now the Hizbullah movement calls the beleaguered government of Fouad Siniora traitorous because it is propped up by France and America. Iraq's prime minister, Nuri al-Maliki, needs to keep his distance from America to fend off accusations that he is a puppet of the occupation. And, of course, the assumption of many Muslims that a pro-American leader must in some way be a traitor to the cause extends beyond the Arab world: in Pakistan and Afghanistan Presidents Musharraf and Karzai have constantly to face down the cry that by allying with the superpower they have sold out their countries—or, worse, their religion.

America's allies cannot stop the martyrs from calling them traitors. America has made itself deeply unpopular in the Islamic world by invading Iraq and standing by Israel. This is bound to taint any Muslim leader who looks as if he owes his position to American military or economic power. But guilt by association is only one half of the reason for the growing popularity of the martyrs and the spreading idea that America's allies must be traitors. The other half is that, by comparison with the traitors, the martyrs look clean.

The martyrs have another selling point. They are still “resisting”. During the Lebanon war last summer Hizbullah won millions of admirers for breaking the spell of Israeli invincibility. Hamas claimed credit for forcing Israel to evacuate its settlers and soldiers from the Gaza Strip two years ago. Salam Fayyad, the new Palestinian prime minister installed by Mr Abbas, is a decent man. But he is a former World Bank employee in a suit. The Hamas fighter with a bandanna and machinegun makes much better box office.

After Fatah's debacle in Gaza, Mr Bush and Mr Olmert see an opportunity to prove via a Hamas-free government in the West Bank that moderation pays. But it is not enough for Israel and America to release the economic help they withheld from the Palestinians when Hamas was still formally in charge. For the Palestinians' principal grievance is not economic. What they chiefly want is an end to Israel's occupation of the West Bank as well as Gaza so that they can enjoy an independent national existence in both places. And in this respect the West Bank is a tougher problem than Gaza, because it remains speckled by Israeli settlements and throttled by checkpoints.

What America must now prove is that its moderate Arab allies, far from being traitors, can actually deliver desirable results. In the case of Palestine, Mr Abbas and his new prime minister have to show not only that they can govern cleanly but also that they can get Israel to start dismantling outposts and leaving the West Bank. This, as it happens, is not something martyrs can do: Hamas's rockets just make the Israelis less willing to take risks. But to offer the moderates money and no visible progress towards statehood is to treat them with contempt—and to invite Arabs everywhere to do the same.
Will the Arab World support Fatah?  Or will they perceive Fatah as traitors dealing with "the enemy" a.k.a. the West?
How can an Arab leader be friend with the Western nations without being labeled as a traitor by the rest of the Arab World?  Is it possible?
Is the radical freedom fighter image selling more than the moderate one among Arabs?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6999
Personally I think Abbas must be stupid. How is he supposed to be making a name as the legitimate flagbearer of the Palestinian stuggle when he is playing right into the Israelis hands? This is simple 'divide and conquer' tactics from Israel. I received an email from the Jerusalem Post the other day about the 'three state solution' for Christ's sake...

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-26 05:21:55)

oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6963|Πάϊ
Null. I guess public opinion will never dramatically lean towards one or the other. It's like it says in the article.
For the Palestinians' principal grievance is not economic. What they chiefly want is an end to Israel's occupation of the West Bank as well as Gaza so that they can enjoy an independent national existence in both places. And in this respect the West Bank is a tougher problem than Gaza, because it remains speckled by Israeli settlements and throttled by checkpoints.
Israel will never agree to do this, no matter how moderate Fatah is willing to be. And on the other hand, with Hamas you get the usual mayhem, which again changes virtually nothing. Any way you look at this, no matter which side the Palestinians support, they will not get the independent state they want.
ƒ³
Jainus
Member
+30|7020|Herts, UK

CameronPoe wrote:

This is simple 'divide and conquer' tactics from Israel. I received an email from the Jerusalem Post the other day about the 'three state solution' for Christ's sake...
So Hamas (Palestinian) and Fatah (Palestinian) attack each other and this is now Israel's fault... how did we get to that? This isn't meant as a sarcastic attack against you, its just that i don't see how Israel fits into a fight between Palestinians

EDIT: Although i agree that they (Palestinians) are playing into Israel's hands by dividing themselves before they've acheived their aim. It would be easier for them to resolve the Israel dispute (however they're going to do that) before starting on each other

Last edited by Jainus (2007-06-26 05:54:45)

BVC
Member
+325|7140
If Israel wants peace, and peace cannot be acheived through a united Palestine, divide and conquer would be beneficial for both Israel and Fatah; Fatah can get on with their lives, and Israel has a (slightly) smaller/less confusing "problem".  The only group it wouldn't stand to benefit is Hammas.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6986|Texas - Bigger than France

CameronPoe wrote:

Personally I think Abbas must be stupid. How is he supposed to be making a name as the legitimate flagbearer of the Palestinian stuggle when he is playing right into the Israelis hands? This is simple 'divide and conquer' tactics from Israel. I received an email from the Jerusalem Post the other day about the 'three state solution' for Christ's sake...
Well ironically, divide and conquer might actually eventually lead to peace.  Those that want to fight step to the line, then rest elsewhere.  When its over perhaps everyone would be happy.

But I really hate that idea.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6999

Jainus wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

This is simple 'divide and conquer' tactics from Israel. I received an email from the Jerusalem Post the other day about the 'three state solution' for Christ's sake...
So Hamas (Palestinian) and Fatah (Palestinian) attack each other and this is now Israel's fault... how did we get to that? This isn't meant as a sarcastic attack against you, its just that i don't see how Israel fits into a fight between Palestinians

EDIT: Although i agree that they (Palestinians) are playing into Israel's hands by dividing themselves before they've acheived their aim. It would be easier for them to resolve the Israel dispute (however they're going to do that) before starting on each other
The infighting isn't Israel's fault. Israel and the west capitalising on the split by bribing the Palestinians is the Israeli's fault and it will lead to Fatah's demise, mark my words. It will push more people into the hands of Hamas. Perhaps this is what Israel wants because then it can tar all Palestinians as Islamic fundamentalists and conduct a slow genocide on them as they build their 'greater' Israel.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-26 06:54:58)

Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6986|Texas - Bigger than France
Sounds crazy, but what if the Fatah received a shipment of US equipment?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6999

Pug wrote:

Sounds crazy, but what if the Fatah received a shipment of US equipment?
Death knell for Fatah. No Palestinian worth a damn trusts the Bush administratipon. If Fatah 'shook hands with the devil' as they see it then you might as well hand Hamas the West Bank on a silver platter. Perhaps if Bill Clinton was in office it would be OK but otherwise no.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-26 07:27:52)

Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity
I would much much prefer FATAH over HAMAS, and if the arabs want less bloodshed then they would say/do the same.
too_money2007
Member
+145|6752|Keller, Tx
I nulled my vote. I wish they'd all hurry up and kill themselves. What a worthless existence they have.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6999

too_money2007 wrote:

I nulled my vote. I wish they'd all hurry up and kill themselves. What a worthless existence they have.
Would you have said likewise during the US civil war? Or as a Brit facing the luftwaffe?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-06-26 09:07:39)

too_money2007
Member
+145|6752|Keller, Tx

CameronPoe wrote:

too_money2007 wrote:

I nulled my vote. I wish they'd all hurry up and kill themselves. What a worthless existence they have.
Would you have said likewise during the US civil war?
Yes, as war is the ghey. Living in sand and spilling blood in the streets hardly seems civilized to me.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|7088
The Arab world has yet to truly support the palestinians YET.  nothing will change that.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6999

too_money2007 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

too_money2007 wrote:

I nulled my vote. I wish they'd all hurry up and kill themselves. What a worthless existence they have.
Would you have said likewise during the US civil war?
Yes, as war is the ghey. Living in sand and spilling blood in the streets hardly seems civilized to me.
It's people like Gunslinger who have made the country in which you are today secure and able to prosper. If you were born a Palestinian and you took that coward stance you'd be scrounging for food off the ground and sleeping under cardboard. Just because the US has established its borders and made a safe home for its citizens doesn't mean that it'll be that way forever. If the tables suddenly turn on you you'll be crying for somebody to defend your precious home and belongings and nobody will be listening.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7072|IRELAND

too_money2007 wrote:

Yes, as war is the ghey.
"ghey"?
too_money2007
Member
+145|6752|Keller, Tx

CameronPoe wrote:

too_money2007 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Would you have said likewise during the US civil war?
Yes, as war is the ghey. Living in sand and spilling blood in the streets hardly seems civilized to me.
It's people like Gunslinger who have made the country in which you are today secure and able to prosper. If you were born a Palestinian and you took that coward stance you'd be scrounging for food off the ground and sleeping under cardboard. Just because the US has established its borders and made a safe home for its citizens doesn't mean that it'll be that way forever. If the tables suddenly turn on you you'll be crying for somebody to defend your precious home and belongings and nobody will be listening.
So says Ron Howard. Gingervitis sickens me...

Anyways, I know you're upset that we have it so good over here. It's not my fault the middle east, and other 3rd world countries, haven't done anything in their history to make their lives better. They'd rather squabble over land rights in a conflict that is older than Jesus riding a dinosaur, than to just shut the fuck up and move on with their lives. But, I can't blame them. Their parents brainwashed them into believing in some kind of God, which makes them insane. But, their parents aren't to blame, as each generation has done the same.

Cam, I know you think you're a fking god here or something, but get a clue. Sit at your desk for the electric company and provide power to the masses, as that's all you're good for, other than inciting shit on a video game forum, trying to impress 12 year olds with your stupid logic.

"I travel to other countries a lot, take lots of pictures to show people, so that makes me COOL!!" -CameronPoe (direct quote... it's out there).

Same goes for your JahManRed.


I WILL RULE YOOOOOOOOOOOU!!!
https://images.tvnz.co.nz/tvnz_images/tv2/movies/wk49_ready_rumble_c_two.jpg

Last edited by too_money2007 (2007-06-26 10:04:25)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7045|132 and Bush

I'm done with trying to predict this conflict.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Jepeto87
Member
+38|7129|Dublin
Iran and Syria will back Hamas, pointing out that Hamas won the last election and was entitled to control of the security services which Fatah refused to hand over. ( For very valid reasons you could argue)

Egypt will back Fatah  saying that Hamas has broken Palestian law and undermined the office of the president. (There scared Hamas will turn Gaza into a terrorist holiday resort and these unsavory people will flood across the border into relatively secular Egypt)

Saudi Arabia will make a vague statement calling for peace but backing no one and promise loads of money. However like countless times befor the wont actually give anyone any money.

The Middle East wont unite and back one faction, they never do that unless there condemning Israel or America!

I dont support Hamas but Fatah are a bunch of corrupt wanna be despots who fight like girls.

Thanks

PS: For an interesting look into the mind set of Hamas check out this interesting news article

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/UnNews:Ham … _activists

Last edited by Jepeto87 (2007-06-26 10:26:53)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6999

too_money2007 wrote:

Anyways, I know you're upset that we have it so good over here.
But not quite so good as we have it here in Ireland...

too_money2007 wrote:

It's not my fault the middle east, and other 3rd world countries, haven't done anything in their history to make their lives better.
Wow. I never realised that! You learn something new everyday. I never realised stating the obvious could be so enlightening.

too_money2007 wrote:

They'd rather squabble over land rights in a conflict that is older than Jesus riding a dinosaur, than to just shut the fuck up and move on with their lives.
You're kind of exposing your ignorance of what is actually the issue in Palestine. It's a territorial dispute - land theft - not a religious dispute. It just so happens that the main protagonists can be characterised as either muslim or jewish.

too_money2007 wrote:

But, I can't blame them. Their parents brainwashed them into believing in some kind of God, which makes them insane. But, their parents aren't to blame, as each generation has done the same.
Try reading about the history of Palestine, 1900 to 1948. Then get back to me.

too_money2007 wrote:

Cam, I know you think you're a fking god here or something, but get a clue.
Given that I don't believe in the existence of a higher being I find it rather odd that you would suggest I thought of myself as a deity.

too_money2007 wrote:

Sit at your desk for the electric company and provide power to the masses, as that's all you're good for, other than inciting shit on a video gam
e forum, trying to impress 12 year olds with your stupid logic.
So what are you doing then?

too_money2007 wrote:

"I travel to other countries a lot, take lots of pictures to show people, so that makes me COOL!!" -CameronPoe (direct quote... it's out there).
Wow. I can make up quotes too.

Mod:  flame/personal attack removed.
Wreckognize
Member
+294|6929
I think that the Arab world will support Hamas, because Fatah is secular.
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity
wow too_money you fail when it comes to personal attacks. Once agian i think that FATAH should rule palestien territory (No the isrealis get to keep thier land Cam.)
Wreckognize
Member
+294|6929
It would be nice if Fatah ruled Palestine, but they're secular, so do you really think they'll get the support?
Liberal-Sl@yer
Certified BF2S Asshole
+131|6900|The edge of sanity

Obey_m0rph3us wrote:

It would be nice if Fatah ruled Palestine, but they're secular, so do you really think they'll get the support?
I wouldnt know, but i do think their less aggressive platform might give them the edge they need to gain support in war torn palestien.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6986|Texas - Bigger than France

CameronPoe wrote:

too_money2007 wrote:

Anyways, I know you're upset that we have it so good over here.
But not quite so good as we have it here in Ireland...
Guinness = Life

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